mhnova65
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Posts posted by mhnova65
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Hi All.
A question for those who have done their own body work and fought with the doors....
Currently working on the door gaps and alignment and having a tough time getting the edges of the door to be flush with the quarters and fender edges. After aligning the doors, I added an removed material from the edges to get a consistent 3/16 panel gap on both sides. I gently pried the door edges where needed to get the door skins flush to both surfaces and everything was looking good....till i removed the door panel to finish grinding my welds.
When you pry up on the edges of these doors, it is not the door edge that moves but the mounting tabs that house the t-bolts begin to open up. Unlike a typical door that has the skin wrapped around the door panel and is a solid piece. I had tack welded the tabs on the inside of the door to prevent them from separating however, what little edge is available on the skin does not have much give to get the edges flush without distorting a the t-bolts areas. I'm trying to get the doors as flush as possible so that only limited filler is used to flatten the surface.
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The roof has both sound deadener and insulation applied. The sound deadener is applied directly to the metal roof which is about 1/8 compressed fiber. On top of that is die-cut fiberglass insulation about 3/4 inch thick. It was not applied with adhesive per se but with the same primer used on the interior.
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Rare Parts re-builds these, Kendall.
rareparts.com
They can, in-fact, wear in the sockets as did mine. Rare parts did a very nice job with very quick turnaround. They'll ask you to send them your link first and they will either re-build it or ship you one they already have done (if available). In my case, I shipped mine and received a replacement in less than a week and a half.
Mention you are an ROA member for the discount.
Mark
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Hi David.
Be careful moving forward and try to poke around as much as possible before patching those holes. The trunk mounts seem to be another Achilles Heal of rust for the early Rivi's. In working on mine, I've found there are two issues with this area:
1. Water penetrates the trunk (either by bad window/ trunk seals or rotted window channel in which water penetrates the body sealer in the seam of the trunk floor/ inner fender.
or (and more probably)
2. The trunk body mount "cups" retain water as they are closed (no vent holes) and rot from the inside out. What looks like trunk rust is actually rot coming up from the cup and consuming the trunk floor.
The latter is what happens in most cases so the bad part is that which you usually can't see. While I had some rust in those areas, once I started to cut out the metal, the real challenge appeared. Not only was the floor rotted but the body mount cups (in the case of the drivers side) was nearly non-existent (passenger side had rot but was repairable without having to remove it from the car). Check out what was left of one of the body mount bolts once I peeled the floor back a bit:
Needless to say, I had some major surgery to perform in which one side required having to re-build the body mount cup and both sides of the trunk had to be repaired (along with repairs to the inner fender): http://forums.aaca.org/f177/trunk-pan-progress-looking-solid-rust-275117.html
I suggest you get under the trunk and jab the cups with a flat-head screwdriver to see if what looks solid...........is solid.
Personally, I'm not a fan of fiberglass repair and metal is always better. Even if you made a patch panel and laid it over the top secured in place with JB Weld, rivit's or nuts/ bolts (Kaber, nice job on your repair, by the way. I must have missed that thread last year).
Long story short, just be sure there is not a bigger problem lurking underneath.
Mark
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Hi Eric.
The 63 -65 did not have separate core-support body mounts. They are the same as the rest of the car with the exception of the ones above the rear wheels (they are a larger mount).
Cars Inc. has the mount and cushion (upper and lower) under part number BM595-4 and BM635-4. They also have the replacement washers and bolts if needed.
http://www.oldbuickparts.com/catalog/frame-c-19_35_522.html
Mark
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Wedgewood,
The kit you purchased for your rear brakes is correct as the front and rear hardware is slightly different due to a slight difference in the way the spring mounts are set up for the front and rear drums. The front brakes have the same length spring for both shoes. The rear brake uses one of those springs however the return spring for the front shoe is much longer.
A picture is worth a 1000 words. Here is a pic of both the front and rear brakes in which you can see the difference.
Mark
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LOL!
Me too, David. Fortunately, I was able to avoid the duct-tape on this adventure.
Mark
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Thanks for the input, Jim. I was hoping to network with one of you guys before hunting down a parts car locally.
Tom, unfortunately the hardware kits do not come with this link. I just re-built the rear-end from soup to nuts and have installed all new hardware but those kits do not contain the actuator link nor the brake adjuster. return spring Thanks for the input.
Mark
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Hi Keith.
I know this might be a bit a late to your original post but I had the same issue with my lower bearing and did not have any luck sourcing a new one. Since my bearing lost all of it's balls and seized on the shaft, I had to replace it somehow and thought a bronze busing might fit the bill.
I ordered a 3/4 x 1 1/4 x 1 Oilite bronze bearing from McMaster-Carr (part number 6391K418). The bearing is self lubricating and cost about $7. After carefully measuring the original column protrusion from the plastic hub, I marked the bearing and began removing material from the backside of the bearing using my bench grinder. I don't have access to a lathe so just turning the bearing against the grinder more-or-less made neat work of turning down the back half. At this point, you want to take a little off and test fit as you are looking for a light press-fit. Don't make it too tight as it will crack the plastic hub when you go to install it. Once you turn down the bearing enough, it will fit nice and snug in the plastic hub.
Re-use the washer/ spacer that was originally on the column to protect the bearing from the clip on the column (which prevents the bearing from walking) in order to protect the face of the bronze bearing against the clip. After re-assembly, the column works like a charm and back to original.
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Hi Gents.
Does anyone know if there is a source for brake actuator links? This is the solid steel link in the brake that actuates the brake adjuster (see pic).
If not, does anyone happen to have one for the passenger side rear drum (they are side specific) they are willing to sell?
Thanks for your help.
Happy Fathers Day to all you Dad's!
Mark
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Tom,
Thank you for the reply.
After reading your post, I decided to research control arm bushings in greater detail to see exactly how they are supposed to work; I had a fundamental misunderstanding of how they operate.
I was under the impression that the bolt had free movement to turn inside the bushing and the rubber was simply their to isolate the joint from the chassis and reduce vibration and road feel. It turns out, the inner busing actually "bites" into the control arm when it is torqued down. The busing works by the rubber flexing in a torque (circular force) which actually adds to the suspension action of the car. The outer busing and inner bushing are fixed with the only movement in the joint coming from the twisting of the rubber in-between the two bushings.
Your advise was spot on. If you torque the control arm bolt while the car is on jack stands, you can actually adversely change the ride height of the car due to the built up resistance of the rubber twisting in the bushing. If you don't torque the bolt with the weight of the car resting on the suspension, you could potentially change the stance, ride height of the front end (it will be higher).
....just thought I'd add this in case anyone else was interested.
Thanks again.
Mark
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Hi Gents.
Need to pick your brains on the lower control arm bushing.
I finally got to the point of putting things back ON the car (.....I think I'm done cutting rust off of it..............for now
). I just reassembled the front suspension and was curious about the lower control arm torque spec. I installed the lower control arm and torqued it down to 90 lbs. After the rest of the parts were back on and it was time to insert the spring and lift the lower control arm into place, it wouldn't budge! I ended up loosening the bolt enough to get it to move and reassembled the suspension however, I'm puzzled as to what I should do now.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mark
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Chris, nice job but I must say, you are way too hard on yourself for the wrong reasons.
I too am a perfectionist but that is for my own sake; I like my results to reflect my hard work and time. Pay no mind to those guys at the car show. I hope you are building the car for yourself and not them........God knows there are plenty of tire kickers at car shows that do nothing but pick peoples cars apart all to find out they have never built one themselves nor do they possess the skills to do so.
Now for the good stuff: Details!
Let us know what paint system you used and if you liked it. I see you painted it in your garage (awesome!). I'm hoping to be at that point later next summer. What all did you do to set up your paint area? Did you create spray booth in your garage with some tarps and have some type of air flow system? Any issue with dirt in the paint?
Details, man!
Again, great job and hope you are having fun in the process.
Mark
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50 ft. lbs.
I too couldn't find that information anywhere when replacing the rear mounts on my 64. After plenty of searching, it seems 50 ft. lbs. is the answer for GM. Seems about right when I installed the rear mounts as 35 or 40 lbs. would not have been enough torque to properly seat the bushing. 50 ft. lbs. was the sweet spot.
Mark
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Thank you for checking, Jim.
And yes, that is the size of the nut but wanted to confirm before buying the wrench. I initially measured it when the unit was covered in grime (which is why I gave the rough measure of 1 13/16 - 7/8) but have since cleaned it up and confirmed it was 1 13/16.
Bernie, no luck with the punch. What made that more difficult is that the edges of the nut are machined down on the edges.
Thanks again, gents.
Mark
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Very funny, Bernie!
My garage and my tool collection are not strangers to Murphy...........but he is more like the step-brother nobody likes!
Thanks for the idea on the punch. I was not aware that the nut was not torque that tight. We'll see if it works on my locknut.
Jim -if you wouldn't mind- can you confirm the wrench size when you are back or have a moment?
Thanks again.
Mark
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Thank you for the reply, Jim.
I was afraid of that as I was trying to avoid having to buy a wrench I'll likely never use again.
Mark
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Need some help disassembling my two driveshaft halves (First gen).
I'm trying to remove the lock nut on the yoke (at the bearing support) but cannot seem to access the nut well enough to remove it. I don't have an open-end wrench big enough (I believe it is a 1 13/16 or 1 7/8) however, every other tool I've tried can't get enough purchase on the nut as it is buried on the recessed end of the bearing support.
To those who have taken apart their driveshaft's or replaced the bearing support, how were you able to loosen/ remove the nut?
The manual was no help. It just tells you to remove the nut.
Thanks for your help.
Mark
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Hi Gents.
I've been away from the car for about a year now due to other responsibilities around the house but finally had some time to get back into it. After quite a bit of repairs to the front side of the passenger quarter panel, I worked my way back into the wheel tub and found some more rust which lead to the aforementioned trunk issue. I spotted this thread and figured I'd offer my two cents in case anyone finds it useful.
The rust appeared as a hole in the wheel tub right in front of the body bushing cup so I investigated further into the trunk and found the rot in the trunk pan right above the mount (my car is FULL of evil sins that were covered up by the previous owners attempt at restoration). After cutting out that section of the floor, I noticed that the body cup was heavily rotted away and would need to be fixed. To make things easier, I cut the floor out further to expose the whole body cup and removed it. I decided it would be best to repair the cup instead of fabricating an entire new one which didn't seem necessary since a good portion of the cup was solid enough to re-install.
I started by making a paper template for the sides of the cup and transferring it to a piece of 18-gauge steel. After cutting it out, I simply tack welded the beginning of the piece at the start of the side and just worked my way around the cup bending it with my hand and forming it with a body hammer. The new piece was simply placed over the old sides which were left to use as a form. Once that was tacked into place along the top flange, I made another template for the entire bottom section. After cutting out the new piece of metal, I cut out the rotted steel since it was too far rotted and I needed a clean mating surface for the body bolt. Using the same procedure as the sides, I tacked the flat section on first and then hand formed the transition up the front side along with some persuasion from a body hammer to form a nice tight fit. Once it was all tacked together, I finished the welds and re-installed it with new body bushings.
After that was completed, the rest of the floor patch was completed along with repairs to the inner wheel tub. Both sides of the trunk were rotted in the same fashion so the repairs were done for each side although only one cup had to be rebuilt in this fashion. the other was pretty solid so I just reinforced the floor of the cup on the inside by tacking a flat piece to the steel to the inside and drilling out the hole for the body
bolt
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Good luck trying to find one of those, Roupin. They have not been reproduced and are a rare find.
The manual gate valve was only used a few years. They switched to a vacuum actuated valve in 65'; those are readily available as reproductions. As for the manual valve, every once in a while, an OEM one pops up on Ebay and it commands several hundred dollars!
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Hi Chris.
Personally, I'm not a fan of POR-15. I use Chassis Saver from Magnet Paints and swear by it. They are the same chemistries however, I think that Magnet Paint makes a better product. It is absolutely the right product to use on your chassis as well as all under body/ hood components.
I'll give you a run down on the chemistry. If chemistry scares you, turn back now.
Chassis Saver/ POR -15 are moisture-cure urethanes. They are very similar to the 2K Urethane paints used for basecoat/ clearcoats on the bodies exterior. The main difference is how they are polymerized (or -the incorrectly used term- "cured"). A 2-component urethane paint is composed of two parts: Part A: Polyol (a polymeric alcohol) and Part B: Isocyanate. Their is no Urethane present in that paint system until the you begin the polymerization reaction by mixing the two parts together.
When Part A is mixed with Part B, a chemical reaction occurs in which you create a polymer. In this case: a Polyurethane. Urethanes are coveted for their durability and toughness compared to other paint systems (Lacquers, Enamels, etc.). They are also very expensive and have health implications associated with using them due to their Isocyanate content. Isocyanate's are sensitizers. That is, when you are exposed to them, the body (and everyones is different) can become sensitized to the presence of them. Their are cases in which people who have had limited exposure to isocyanates become sensitized to them and afterward, even a miniscule amount in the air (we're talking parts per million) causes them to break out in rashes and hives......or worse. This is why when a body shop spray's 2K urethane, they have to use a positive pressure respirator in which outside air is pumped into their mask. A regular respirator cannot capture Isocyanate vapors and you will be exposed to them under the false security of wearing a respirator.
Back to the Chassis Saver/ POR-15........
These are similar chemistries however, they can be regarded as a 1-component system (you do not have to mix another part to get them to cure). The resins used to make these paint systems have already been partially pre-reacted (for lack of a better term) to form a Polyurethane "pre-polymer". That pre-polymer has reactive sites on the polymer that are very reactive with atmospheric moisture. When the coating is exposed to moisture in the atmosphere, it begins to react with it to form the polyurethane. An off-product to this reaction is carbon dioxide gas which is why you might notice the product begin to form bubbles or off-gas when you open the can or leave it open.
This is great because it creates a simple 1-component system that is easy to use while providing the durability of polyurethante. But it does cause a limited shelf life issue. I usally buy them in quart cans as they begin to react as soon as you open them and will cure in the can if left partially full (you need to plan ahead so as not to waste your money on this stuff. Sucks to open a can to paint a small part only to open it a week later and find a hockey puck in the can!!).
Moisture-cure urethanes also contain Isocyanates which is the reason why they tell you not to spray them. Just like 2K's, you can spray them as long as you have a positive pressure respirator however, you are probably best off brushing them as they level and flow very nicely (although the satin's can result in some streaking if not done properly).
Now, as far as their UV instability, that has to do with the Isocyanates as well. Isocyanates are very expensive and they come in two major varieties: Aliphatic and Aromatic.
Aromatic Isocyanates are a ring-like structure. They are cheaper however, they are also more reactive and susceptible to UV degradation from direct sun light. The UV rays will not alter the cured film's properties (they will not be weakened) however, the color will fade from black to grey depending on level of exposure. You will not have any of those issues on chassis applications. If you wish to avoid this, you can top-coat after fully cured with another paint for asthetics.
Aliphatic Isocyanates are straight-chain structures that have very little potential for reactivity and are hence more stable....and much more expensive. These are the Isocyanates used in all of your top-coat products for autobody exterior applications. No need to use the more expensive product in a chassis application....which is why they don't!
Class dismissed.
Hope that helps.
Mark
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Oops.....forgot about that part, Ed.
Before polishing, I painted the webbing between the bars using various artist brushes (whichever size was needed to get into the space) and a small can of Rustoleum Satin Black. You can buy the little cans (8oz. ?) wherever they sell Rustoleum.
Mark
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Zimm,
I've tried many of these suggestion but unfortunately, nothing substitutes doing it the hard way.
Painting the grill first and then trying to take the paint off the edges with 000 seems great.....until you try it. If you don't hit the paint at the precise time, it either smudges or it doesn't want to come off prompting more elbow grease. This becomes more work that it is worth. Plus the harder you push on the steel wool, the more you start to take off paint on the inside edge as opposed to the outer edge itself.
Wiping with solvent is equally frustrating. If you do it with a rag, the rag tends to sink into the crates and take the paint off the insides. I suppose you could do what Ed suggest with the paper towel and stir-stick but the front end parts were too elaborate to work for me when I did my parts (as opposed to just a bunch of flat, level surfaces).
Taping the front edge only and shooting the paint from behind sounds great too.....until you do it. The crates are too deep and you will not be able to get enough paint on the leading edges; which is where you see it and and the portion that will be most exposed to wear and the elements).
After countless hours of trying to find an easier way of doing it.............I realized the hard way was the best and only way; You must mask each edge.
3M makes a thin vinyl masking tape used for detail masking (making flames and other paint effects). I found the 1/8" tape perfectly covers the horizontal ribs of the front components. The 1/4" works well for the vertical ribs onthe headlight assemblies. Those two rolls and a new razor blade and you are off to the races.
Pain in the Arse?? Yes.
Takes a lot of time??? Absolutely
Worth it?? Without a doubt.
Reason why this is the best way to go; Once you spend the time to properly mask the components, you are now free to paint from any angle and side. VERY important when you are tring to get paint inside small boxes and cover the sides evenly. It works so well you'll shed a tear removing the tape because it was more work than any other part of the project!!!
I was going to use the Ardent Silver but it was too expensive for my taste. I looked into the Krylon Dull Aluminum but it was not suggested for exterior applications (although some on this form have used it and say they have had no issues). I settled on Rustoleum's Professional line (the silver rattle cans) in dull aluminum. The color is a bit more silver/ deeper tone than the others but it looks nice and really covers well. Especially helpful if you have minor pitting that you want to try and fill a bit.
When you are all done with the paint, let it dry for several days to get a good cure. Then polish up the edges using 000 steel wool with a paste metal polish (someone else recommended that to me on this forum and WOW does it work great.....as good as the chrome will ever look without re-chroming).
Best of luck.
Mark
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Called up CARS today and asked about the patch panesl in their catalog. I was told they are not available and have not been for many years now................
Which begs the question................Why are they still in their catalog........
). I just reassembled the front suspension and was curious about the lower control arm torque spec. 
Door Skin alignment
in Buick Riviera
Posted
Thanks for the input guys but I might have created the wrong impression with this thread title.
The issue is not the door alignment in the body. That has been adjusted and the doors are where they need to be. The issue is with the plane of the door as it relates the face of the quarter panel and fender (not the edges/ door gap). These older cars tend to look like a stack of marshmallows on a stick instead of flat along the entire length of the body. The edges of the door tend to dive in instead of being flush with the outer surface. A bit of prying with a body spoon tends to get them back up to the surface on a conventional door but with the removable door skins on the Riviera, it creates the issues outlined in my original post.