JV Puleo

Is it a spur gear or a helical gear? On a spur gear the teeth run straight across the face while on a helical gear they run at an angle. If it's a spur gear any 60-tooth spur gear of the right diametrical pitch, thickness and hole size will work. There is a formula for calculating the DP...I don't have it at hand but it isn't hard to do. Is your gear worn out? If it is a fiber gear - which is what the picture looks like, you could replace it with a bronze gear. All of this presumes you can't find one easily but I'd think there must be NOS timing gears around...there would not be a big demand for them.

That's my reaction too. I suspect that faced with a real tricky repair I'd still want to use the professional but for a simpler repair - like a cracked leg on an antique machine, I'd be tempted to give it a try.

Yes, by all means. I don't think I have it. email is: jvp5070@gmail.com

Boy do I hat it when that happens. I've been known to type a long answer to something into word and copy it to a forum because if it vanishes into cyber space I know I won't do it again.

Not only did Gary make the hypothetical mating gear, he brought it up to the shop this morning so we could compare them. While waiting for him I milled the blocks that will be the spring shackles down to the finished length. No sooner had I finished that and Gary arrived so we tried the gears to see if they worked together. It looks as if I've calculated the the helix and the diametrical pitch correctly. The 3-D printer software wants to make the gear 2.75" in OD while the original gear is about .100 larger, hence the flats at the tops of the teeth are a bit wider. This is a characteristic of Helical gears...they can be made slightly larger than spur gears for the same tooth and DP settings. I don't know why they did it but it's something I've seen before. The Mitchell timing gears are also a bit larger than the tooth count warrants.

I have to go up to the shop this morning...why don't you stop by and I'll show you the real shaft. I need to take pictures of it before I send it back to Ed. I'm at 401-323-4433...I'll be there in abut 30 minutes (9:50 right now) Cheers, JP

Sure! Thanks. jp [EDIT] What a great idea. My machinist colleagues suggested exactly that except they presume I have another gear to try it with - which, obviously, I don't. We're about 99% sure it's 14.5 degrees but there are some further measurements I can take to confirm that.

This is the big issue with "reverse engineering"...it looks like you just copy the part but there is A LOT more to it than that. I'm in complete agreement though. If all I had to do was order the parts I'd loose interest pretty fast. I posted a picture of it on the Practical Machinist Antique Machinery forum. There are guys there whose knowledge make my efforts almost embarrassing...but it looks as if I've figured it correctly. A 20-tooth DP8 spur gear would be 2.75" in diameter but a helical gear with the same DP can be larger. 20-degree and 14.5 degree gears look subtly different but I have never worked with 20-degree gears and don't have any to compare this one to.

Pressure angle is 14.5. I'm not even sure 20 degrees was current in 1917. Certainly I've never seen a car or a machine took from that era that used 20-degree gears. One of the advantages to helical gears, aside from running quieter, is that there is some flexibility with overall diameter. I did measure the teeth with my gear gauges, which is how I arrived at DP8. I haven't measured them with my B&S Gear Vernier but in this case the challenge is to replicate the gear as it is... I put the shaft in the lathe to see if I could polish it up a bit. Another curiosity is that it's nickel plated. Beside the corrosion there are a few burrs from the plating peeling off. It may not be as badly worn as it looks although I think it's too corroded to use long term. Ed sent me the piece that screws into the end which confirms that the diameter and depth of the counterbore are inconsequential. I was worried that something fit into the piece but that isn't the case. This is going to allow me to utilize most of the length of the large diameter section to anchor the shaft. Because it turns counter clockwise I will have to come up with a means of making it effectively one piece...this may be why they made it in one piece. At the moment I'm leaning towards reaming the hole and using a slip fit secured with a set screw but the jury is still out on that one. I have to plan all of the steps before I start machining. I have ordered the materials and some bits of tooling I'll need so I will be sending this back to Ed before I actually start making the new ones. While thinking about how I'm going to make this, I worked on the spring shackles. The first step was to cut 2 pieces... These were then set up on the drill press using angle blocks to make sure they were in perfect alignment with each other to drill and tap them for cap screws that will hold them thoether. Then they were drilled and one tapped while the hole was enlarged on the other and counterbored. These holes are located so that they will hold the blocks together while machining them but be eliminated in the process. The counterbores are deep enough so that the cap screws don't protrude on either side. And, the engine after three or for days (I think I did this on Monday). The second drip is directly under the plug in one of the banjo bolts...this isn't what I would consider much of a leak. I'll see if I can eliminate it but if this is all I get, I'll be a happy camper. Gary, some place at home (I haven't found it yet) I have the Brown & Sharp manual titled "Formulas in Gearing". I'll want to check that before I start cutting teeth. It's clear that the White company had there own way of doing things...the thread on the piece Ed just sent is 7/8-13, a size not listed in any of my period catalogs and I have them going back to at least 1891. [EDIT] I see that the 20-degree was in use at the time so I'll have to figure out how to measure it. I think it's unlikely they used it, but it's best to be sure before we start cutting.

True enough but to anyone seriously interested in early automotive engineering this is really a once-in-a-ifetime opportunity... a rare car, beautifully made in as near untouched condition as is imaginable...in fact, unimaginable in the real world. How it avoided being "restorated" in the 50s and 60s is a miracle in itself. I've seen several fantastic unrestored cars, a 1909 Packard, 1911 48 HP Locomobile, 1910 Stevens Duryea, 1921 SG Oxford tourer...etc but likely never one as complete and unaltered from new as this one. It's as good as the 28 Franklin I went to see in my neighborhood when I was in HS...put up on blocks in 1941 and still on them in a beautifully kept, clean barn (aside from a light coating of dust...Dr. Marshall kept his outbuildings in perfect condition) with the original tires still holding air and the sales brochure from the Franklin dealer, with the car circled, in the driver's door pocket.

Excellent! Since it's flat on the top it's clear that the depth of the threaded hole and the actual thread have no effect on anything. As long as it goes in and is the right length, we're all set. This is getting better all the time. It does look as if the water pump shaft turns counter clockwise.

Ed is sending me the part the screws into the front end. I'll know more when I see it but it doesn't look as if the hole at the base of the counterbore has to be have to be as big or as deep as it is. I'm hoping that I can use a 11/16 reamer through the gear and thread the hole 3/4-16. I will make the shaft and the gear separately and screw the shaft in. If the gear turns clockwise - which is likely - that's all I'll have to do. If it turns counter clockwise I'll pin it or thread a hole into it, use a set screw and then plug the hole. The shaft and gear will effectively be one piece but this allows me to use 3/4 ground stock for the shaft. The 1-3/8 dia. part also has a ground surface. I've two possible ways of attacking that...either I'll send it to a friend who has cylindrical grinding machines or I'll use my tool post grinder. If I use the tool post grinder I'll do an experiment first to make sure I can get the required finish and tolerance...but as I've never used one of those (and I have two of them), it's about time I learned. Boston Gear, Martin Gear etc are all out. the stock helical gears all have a 45-degree helix. These gears have a 20-degree helix. They would be a custom job no matter who made them. Judging from Ed's comment, all this should be possible. I will probably replicate the piece Ed is sending with the thread I use for the shaft just to make things easy...

Here's the drawing, updated yesterday. (I was out of the shop today on family business.) The exact calculation of the taper on the end is still a question. I think it must be 1.5:12 - and inch and a half in 12 inches. That was the SAE taper and it was adopted in 1914 but my measurements don't work out exactly. That said, it's very difficult to measure a taper, getting the exact diameter at both ends. I use a dial vernier caliper because it has knife edges but with this sort of measurement .010 makes a big difference. The solution I've come up with is to make two samples and send them to Ed to compare with the piece the shaft attaches to. I presume it's an Oldham coupling or a mag coupling...we'll find out exactly what it is before we try to do the real shaft.

Wow Gary...I'm going to take a bunch of pictures on Saturday so I have them for reference after I've sent it back I will post one so we can compare it but that is fantastic.

The problem is finding shop that can do it and will do it. Repairing big hydraulic equipment or government contracts are one thing but the companies that do that sort of thing are rarely, if ever interested in a one-off unusual part from a customer that is not likely to give them more work or if they do, the same sort of work. By making it over from scratch we avoid having to do anything to the original except clean it up. It will work and we're not taking any chances of damaging it. From my perspective, there is much less anxiety involved in making a part when you know that if you make an error you can always do it again. I'll add that if Ed hasn't been able to find a shop he trusts they must be very rare. I've known about the technique for a long time but I've never found anyone who could or would do it...

That is encouraging. Helical gears produce thrust (I forget whether it's in the direction of the helix or opposite) so this is just an elaborate means of eliminating that end thrust. It makes sense in a convoluted way. As someone who often thinks of the complicated way of doing things, I like it! You can see the mark left by a shim behind the gear so it was perfectly adjusted when new and has never been apart. There is a hole in the shaft about 2-3/4" from the end. I'm guessing it must be for a pin that retains the impeller. The question is, is a tapered pin or a straight pin and what is the exact diameter. It looks like a 1/4" pin but it's actually smaller and the length of the hole (the diameter of the shaft) is such that it's difficult to get an accurate measurement regarding taper. I don't have the super precise small hole micrometers that are usually needed for measuring a hole like this but if you mic the pin we'll have the answer. Who in the world would have guessed that a water pump shaft could be so complicated but this is the sort of problem that makes fixing really old cars interesting..oh, and I looked up that Snap-on induction heater. I really like that and may buy one.

My success making those acme nuts seems to have gone to my head because I asked Edinmass if I could take a crack at making the water pump shaft for his 1917 White...and he accepted! I have the shaft in order to take measurements and make a drawing. I'll send it back as soon as that's done so Ed can get the car back on the road. Then I'll start on the shaft itself. When Ed said is was the most complicated part like this he's ever seen he was not kidding. I've never seen anything like it. It was made in one piece with a 20-tooth helical gear at one end. The surfaces are ground rather than lathe turned. It's certainly a challenge, but I've now had two or three days to think about it and I am pretty sure I can do it...but, only time will tell. Here's the drawing as of now. There are still some dimensions to work out because it will be necessary to change it a little in order to be doable on my machines. The helical gear may be a challenge but I've made spur gears before so I am pretty sure I can handle this. I also started on my spring shackles. I'm not sure how far I'll progress with those before I go back to the Mitchell engine but they are a relatively straight forward project that does not inspire much angst so, in a sense, it's relaxing work.

Reminds me of the guy asking if there were any photographs of the burning of Washington in 1812. One of the forums I belong to used to have a sub-forum titled "as seen on e-bay" where members posted links to outrageous listings. I do remember one response that went something like "...how dare you question an e-bay seller"...as if selling on ebay automatically made you an expert. There's no cure for stupid. Personally, I wouldn't bother. It's very hard to combat wishful thinking.

40 years ago those Dietz military lights were commonplace around New England. Every antique and junk shop had a few and many were in new condition. They were used on the horse-drawn equipment too - which is where I think most of them came from. Every local farmer had a WWI horse-drawn Ambulance for a farm wagon. I have a local friend who has a restored example and know where the remains of one have rotted into the ground behind another friend's house.

One small drip. Though it isn't clear from the picture, its directly under the plug in the front banjo fitting. The oil is probably weeping around the threads. I did not put pipe dope on the threads but will when final assembly comes around so it looks as if this has worked. Still, I'll give it a few more days. In the meantime I'm re-doing all the plumbing in my house and working on a special job. Tonight I'll make some preliminary drawings. I'll share the job when I start actually making things... The material also came in to make new spring shackels but I may leave that aside until the next time I'm stuck waiting for materials.

Good idea, I'll look into that.

Of course it will leak...but if you try to make it leak-free then it won't leak very much. The drip oiler for the tail end of the crankshaft will certainly leak a bit and I'm still wondering about the oil pump. I lapped the surfaces and put it together without gaskets but if I can make some very thin paper gaskets I'll add them. I have some .003 thick 100% rag paper to make them from.

I'm finally back to the Mitchell engine but while I'm testing for oil leaks I started on another little project for one of our members. When it's further along I'll share the process but the first thing was to make taper turning attachment. I have one that is probably good for rough tapers but in this case I want real "micrometer" adjustment and though to make one out of this boring head. I bought this years ago when I first started looking for one. It was relatively cheap on ebay but I didn't realize how big it was. It was much too big for the mill I had at the time and the shank was very tightly screwed in. Last night I came up with a plan to unscrew it... first I drilled a 1/2" hole through it. Then clamped it down to the table of the mill and put a 1/2" grade 8 bolt in the hole. I had to hammer on the bolt to start it moving. It looks like they used Locktite or some other thread locker but I didn't want to heat it as the internal parts of one of these heads are very fine. Fortunately that worked a charm. I have a 4MT arbor coming to replace the straight one... when I get this together and can test it you'll see how it will work. This is the 2nd boring head I bought and didn't use. The first got made into the radius turning attachment so I've managed to salvage two of my errors. While I was doing this I drained the oil from the engine then flipped it over. When I removed the oil lines I discovered that I'd forgotten one of the gaskets and that was the connection that was weeping so it looks like I am on the right track. The new fiber gaskets fit perfectly and you can see how much difference there is in surface area. I put it all back together, being careful to clean up as much oil as I could. I want all the connections dry so if they do leak I'll be able to see it. I also had the idea of laying a piece of brown wrapping paper under it so that if there is a drip, it will show immediately. This was about two or three hours ago and thus far all is fine.

That's a really great job Harm. I don't know that I'll ever need to do it (an Ed's stitching guy is only abut 20 miles from me) but it's reassuring to know that it can be done if you are patient and careful.

Driving through Seekonk Mass one evening in my 26 Cadillac, the arm on the transmission that operates the clutch split at the keyway. I had no clutch and 20s Cadillacs are hard enough to shift with a clutch - driving without one is near impossible.. I was with a friend - also an antique car guy and when we decided there was no way we could patch it up to get home we decided to phone my father,. There was another transmission in the garage with the arm so we asked him to take it off and bring it to us. He succeeded, which may not sound remarkable except that my late father (1st viola of the RI Philharmonic Orchestra) was as un-mechanical as anyone could be. He really shouldn't have been allowed to own a screwdriver so I've no idea how he managed to do it...his idea of tools was a set of Craftsman open end wrenches he bought when he got married and never used. I'm using them today. We fixed it in the parking lot of a drug store and drove home. Another time, the driveshaft of my 1910 REO broke while getting off the Orient Point ferry. I was coming back from the Vanderbilt Cup commemorative car show on Long Island, having driven from Rhode Island to Long Island and back. The break was the result of a poor repair I'd done (I was in my 20s at the time and have learned a lot in the intervening 40 years). I pulled over to the side of the road on the grass in front of an electrical transfer station and started taking the car apart. A few minutes later a truck with a Gas & Electric Company crew pulled up and the guys offered to help. "Aren't you guys supposed to be working" I asked. "no problem, we're union" was the reply. We got the drive shaft out of the torque tube and the foreman drove me over to another part of town where another crew was installing gas pipes. The chief welder set it up on his portable rig for welding pipes and put it back together. We then drove back to the car and installed it. In all, my broken drive shaft delayed me about 1-1/2 hours!