X-Frame

This is a new term to me which showed up on a description for a 1942 Cadillac Convertible frame. It is a large gusset plate that covers over the junction where the X legs meet. I have also seen it on a 1936 Cadillac (attached) but wondered if the 1940 Chevrolet Cabriolet large square plate is also considered the same? Is anyone familiar with the term Wolfhide and which cars may have used them? Thanks Eric

Does anyone by chance, have any photographs or graphics of the classic 1924-1927 Delage GL chassis with the X-brace? Thank You! Eric

Anyone else wants to chime in, please do. This may not be an easy question to answer and the more heads the better.

Art... It has been a while since my last visit and did not see your reply until now, sorry. Is there some sort of standard or formula required to be considered a true X such as leg degree of angle or length for it to be effective? The photo you posted showing a Stutz is the same design that Packard used on their 1932 Standard 8 chassis seen in their sales brochure described as a X (attached). I have since found out that the Cord L-29 X was not the first production car to use the same design. The 1924-1927 Delage GL also had the same outreaching X design used for torque according to Autocar articles. That X was designed by the same person who designed the Hotchkiss model AK chassis -Maurice Sainturant. (attached - seen in front at the Paris show). Eric

This one mentions Amplex

Thanks Bill. Here is a clip from an October 1932 newspaper. The Model A they used the Chrysler solid rubber mounts from 1925.

Several books mention Nash as being the first American car to use them in production vehicles. My intent is to find the first use of rubber motor mounts. One other source hints that it was a short lived company around 1897. Another reference also shows Mack in 1920 formed a company licencing rubber mounts they designed. That predates the 1922 Nash claim of mass production use. Chrysler had their own in 1925 as a carryover from Maxwell. The rubber mounts segues into the Floating Power study I am working on.

1922 Nash Rubber Motor Mounts. They claim to be the first to mass use them but I have not come across any patent or even an auto journal mention about their introducing them. Does anyone have any kind of notice/reference from 1922? Thanks!

While doing research on Chrysler’s “Floating Power”, I ran across not only the license agreement with Citroën and Willys but also Ford. Apparently Chrysler’s distribution company Amplex Manufacturing, cut a deal with Ford to supply Floating Power motor mounts as “replacements” for only their 4-cylinder models through a Ford parts supplier called Skinner Motors. Does anyone know if any Fords were known to have done the conversion or how successful this venture was? Thanks Eric

If no one has responded this late in the game, I will with a brochure illustration that shows this is part of the exhaust bracket:

This is from a newspaper article and so must have been a promotional - press release photo showing the bare chassis area and the mounts for the Floating Power setup. Does anyone have a better version of it that I could get a copy of? Thanks!

This is from a newspaper article and so must have been a promotional - press release photo showing the bare chassis area and the mounts for the Floating Power setup. Does anyone have a better version of it that I could get a copy of? Thanks!

This would make sense and considered an "original option" because it was installed when new. Doesn't necessarily mean it came from the factory that way. It does look odd but I am glad that they did considered our most honored citizens who's lives were changed forever.

Oh how I wish I had disposable cash to buy just one. Hard for someone who lives week to week but still love the classics. Maybe one more, someday, before I die? Eric

Thanks for looking. Floating Power was introduced on one car at first, the 1931 Plymouth Model PA which was launched July 4, 1931 and had a short run. The 1932 cars were retooled, the engine mount design used across the board on all Chrysler Corp. cars, and the frame changed. I would suspect finding an original '31 Plymouth PA with ladder frame would be rare.

It looks like I am having a one-way conversation here but hope someone will chime in with comments at least? Here is what I call the "Cast of Characters" related to the introduction of the Floating Power technology. I am hoping for input as to its accuracy, if possible. There seems to have been some collective as well as micromanaged efforts involved. Newton Field Hadley (1890-1970) - Plymouth Chief Design Engineer The Three Muskateers of the engineering consultant firm Zeder-Skelton-Breer, turn Chrysler employees: Fred Morrell Zeder (1886-1951) - Director of Engineering Activities Owen Raymond Skelton (1886-1969) - Executive Engineer Carl Breer (1883-1970) - Research Director Roger Kenneth Lee (1898-1957) - Chief Research Engineer (patent holder for the Floating Power design) Albert Bernhard Werdehoff (1887-1969) - Chassis Engineer (patent holder for new X-brace frame required for torque stability) Thomas Levi Fawick (1889-1978) - Supplied Vulcanized Bushings (Fawick Airflex Corp. - now Eaton Corp.) As for the new frame, I see that a contract was awarded to Midland "in" 1932 but the new design was in place by the end of 1931 so, who built the frames for assembly? Did Chrysler do their own or did Midland and later received a contract? 1931-1932 Frame Supplier ________ ? Still Need Info 1933 Midland Steel 1934 Midland Steel and A.O. Smith THANKS!!!! Eric

It looks like I am having a one-way conversation here but hope someone will chime in with comments at least? Here is what I call the "Cast of Characters" related to the introduction of the Floating Power technology. I am hoping for input as to its accuracy, if possible. There seems to have been some collective as well as micromanaged efforts involved. Newton Field Hadley (1890-1970) - Plymouth Chief Design Engineer The Three Muskateers of the engineering consultant firm Zeder-Skelton-Breer, turn Chrysler employees: Fred Morrell Zeder (1886-1951) - Director of Engineering Activities Owen Raymond Skelton (1886-1969) - Executive Engineer Carl Breer (1883-1970) - Research Director Roger Kenneth Lee (1898-1957) - Chief Research Engineer (patent holder for the Floating Power design) Albert Bernhard Werdehoff (1887-1969) - Chassis Engineer (patent holder for new X-brace frame required for torque stability) Thomas Levi Fawick (1889-1978) - Supplied Vulcanized Bushings (Fawick Airflex Corp. - now Eaton Corp.) As for the new frame, I see that a contract was awarded to Midland "in" 1932 but the new design was in place by the end of 1931 so, who built the frames for assembly? Did Chrysler do their own or did Midland and later received a contract? 1931-1932 Frame Supplier ________ ? Still Need Info 1933 Midland Steel 1934 Midland Steel and A.O. Smith THANKS!!!! Eric

Richard... this "may" be a question you can answer? Do you happen to know who manufactured the frame on your 1932? I know that Midland Steel obtained a contract to make frames for Chrysler in 1932 but who made them in 1931 for the 1932 model year? Any ideas...anyone? A.O. Smith obtained one to make half of the Plymouth and think Dodge vehicles for the 1934 model year. Eric

I ran across a 1959 brochure for the Dodge 100 pickup and it shows the L-6 engine still has the old style front mount. Looks the same for the 1960 which still used the 230 engine so, can I assume that the use thru 1968 is correct on trucks? Not a very good picture but you can see the two legs in front.

True, the 1932 frame was different with the added X brace. Engines use to be bolted solid to the frame but when they suspended it to basically swing on a brace, the front of the frame was weak and twisted the entire thing so... they strengthen it with the X. I found 2 pictures on your Photobucket of the dis-assembly that shows the front Floating Power brace.

You are welcome. You would have to search for Graham Banjo Frames or Chassis and look for Graham literature for those 2 years I mentioned. What are you trying to accomplish with the information or frames? maybe I can point you in the right direction?

On another thread about this, we are discussing the same and seem to have come up with the conclusion, thus far, that the last year for the old front bracket mount floating power engine mount was 1956. I wonder if the new torsion suspension with new frame rails and layout, had anything to do with it? I look at the 1957-1958 Plymouth Shop manual and the front photos that have of the various engines do indeed, show engine pad mounts rather than the old front legs design for the L-6 and V8 engines. But, I am wondering now about trucks? I am still seeking pictures or brochure illustrations but one for the 1958 Dodge Trucks shows the 315cid V8 still using the old floating power brackets while the other engines do not. They said the 315 was used in their 600 series model. And I did see where the 230 was still used in the Power Wagons through 1968 and the one I saw also had the old style floating power front bracket. In the true Chrysler Corp style, it seems there is no rhyme or reason staggering changes. Just like Chrysler, DeSoto, and Dodge cars went from a standard X-braced frame on all models to a new perimiter type (except for convertibles) in 1941 but Plymouth did not change over until the 1942 model year. Also like all Chrysler cars went unibody in 1960 but Imperial kept a seperate frame until 1967. Eric

Carlnut50... I wonder if the new torsion suspension with new frame rails and layout, had anything to do with it? I look at the 1957-1958 Plymouth Shop manual and the front photos that have of the various engines do indeed, show engine pad mounts rather than the old front legs design for the L-6 engine. But, I am wondering now about trucks. I am still seeking pictures or brochure illustrations but one for the 1958 Dodge Trucks shows the 315cid V8 still using the old floating power brackets while the other engines do not. They said the 315 was used in their 600 series model. And I did see where the 230 was still used in the Power Wagons through 1968 and the one I saw also had the old style floating power front bracket. In the true Chrysler Corp style, it seems there is no rhyme or reason staggering changes. Just like Chrysler, DeSoto, and Dodge cars went from a standard X-braced frame on all models to a new perimiter type (except for convertibles) in 1941 but Plymouth did not change over until the 1942 model year. Eric

I think we are on the same page. When I say until 1959, guess I should say through 1959. In 1960 Dodge trucks changed to the slant six. One source says that the Doge Power Wagons made for the military, still used the flat head engine through 1968. It had the front-rear mounts but wonder if I should include it because that was not a civilian use vehicle?

When I said I did some investigating, I was looking at engines pictured in brochures year to year. It seems that on V8, they started phasing out in 1951 with the original configuration mounts. Plymouth held out until 1957. The Flat 6 continued through the 1959 model (230 cid) and had the old mounts but when they switched in 1960 to the slant 6, the old mounts were dropped. At least how I see it.