StanleyRegister
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Posts posted by StanleyRegister
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Catalog pictures, and period photos, never showed a toolbox on any full-size roadster or Scout - the one in the first picture of the original post was probably added for the purposes of the Great American Race.
The only catalog images to show a decorated toolbox were in 1909 - in an Advance catalog and in the regular one. Those are the first 4 images below. They all show a design with an eagle on a half-circle world, with the word "American" slanting up from the lower left of the half-circle.
The only period photos I've found showing a toolbox decoration are of 1909 cars - the next three images. The first two are from factory photos of the Gadabout, and the third is from the W C Fields car. They all show the same design.
No Gadabouts or Wayfarers are known to survive. The single surviving 1909 Traveler (one of my favorite antique cars of all time) carries a toolbox decoration similar to the brass cutout shown in the original post. I've never seen any existing car with a decoration like this one. What I can see of the swirly "American" word, and the texture of the eagle, suggests that the decoration was a decal.
Do you have an Underslung project going? I'd love to learn more about it.
Kelly
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Thanks Ed.
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That sounds excellent, is there a way to look at that?
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There's an interesting few seconds in this video of the VMCCA's first fall meet in Framingham -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFu031seK4s
At 11:08, a stripped-down Simplex with an unpainted hood is sitting by itself in the field. A guy in tan pants and a cream shirt, presumably the owner, is apparently pumping with that humongous impatient-person fuel pump. A second later, flames erupt under the left rear of the hood. He runs to the front of the car and pushes it back 10 or 15 feet. It looks like someone hands him a small fire extinguisher, and from 11:23 to 11:32, he puts out the fire. By 11:49 the scene is finished, and the car and the guy don't apear anywhere else in the video.
Does anyone know which Simplex this is, and who the owner was at the time? There has been some thought that this was James Melton's first Simplex, but he didn't get that until 1942, and he found it in New Jersey. The Bulb Horns that I have access to start in early 1940 - just a bit too late for reporting on this event. Maybe if someone has the club newsletters from before that time, they'd mention the event and that little fire.
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On 12/14/2022 at 9:08 AM, alsancle said:
Two different Brewster bodies on a early 20s Stanley condensing chassis. Either 730 or 740s.
The car in the middle isn't the same one as the car on the bottom. The bottom car is the one in this photo - long rear window, no bustle or trunk in the rear.
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On 11/23/2022 at 7:31 AM, 8E45E said:
From an Australian Packard Club newsletter: https://1956goldenhawk.com/The Packardian October 2022-o.pdf
Craig
When the aging people pass away, why don't the people who buy their Packards join the club? There must be about the same number of eligible Packards there as there were 20 years ago - why isn't there about the same number of club members?
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On 11/28/2022 at 4:52 PM, TAKerry said:
Looking through the list there are 2 Stanleys from Yorklyn DE. I am pretty sure that there is a museum in that area that has a couple of them currently. I wonder if they are the same cars, or if someone on here knows them?
75 years later, the 1914 Stanley is still in the same collection in Yorklyn. I use it for Stanley driver training in the summers. The 1915 Stanley unded up in a large collection in Calfornia which was recently liquidated.
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57 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:
Tr 6's ...
Decent cars, but a good one is getting very pricy.
I just looked at sales on BaT - ouch.
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Hagerty Driver's Club, Nov-Dec 2022
"The Trade-Up Triumph"
... the TR6 is an E-Type for the masses
...
And thanks to good aftermarket support today, there's no reason a solid example can't last a lifetime.
John L. Stein
editor@Hagerty.com
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I can see now how hard it might be for any single vehicle to meet all those needs. I appreciate this great input and it's making me think about the question in a much more well-rounded way. A Toyota anvil or a Volvo 240 may be in the cards...
Returning to that '65 Mustang - If I had gotten one in 1965, or maybe 1974 when I could drive, I could still have one of the thousands of '65 Mustangs that remain on the road. The AC and OD could have been added along the way. Anything that broke or wore out could have been replaced - because anything broken or worn out on a barn find today can be replaced right now. If I had driven it through 48 PA winters, there would likely be rust issues, unless I had been meticulous about the underside. Although nowadays it seems like I could also buy just about any body panel that was lost that way.
Of course, in that scenario, I'd be starting the next 30 years with a half-million miles on the car. Buying one of today's restored or super-solid cars would put me 400,000 miles ahead of the game.
Granted, the next 30 years will likely see some kind of shift in parts availability, not to mention gasoline availability. But it still seems like the next 30 would be mostly like the past 48 would have been.
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That's what was making me look toward cars with reproduction part availability.
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Hmm... A potential other path is slowly sinking in after all these great positive analyses. Identify newer cars that do not break and have better steel. As long as consumable parts remain available, things are good. And a bulletproof car might not need as many of those.
It's a little less obvious to me to ask for help considering '90s Toyotas from the Antique car club. But hey, it's happening right here, and that '93 Del Sol has probably already shown up on the Hershey show field.
I continue to appreciate your input on how to think about making this project work.
If it doesn't break or age out, it doesn't matter how complex it is. My dark view of things is that most engineering teams that add complexity end up reducing reliability.
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On 10/14/2022 at 3:32 PM, drhach said:
If you charged going rate for your labor you'd have to charge way than $500K.
What would you say would be the single largest component of that $500K? That would be the first place I could consider a compromise.
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2 hours ago, Bills Auto Works said:
Hi Bill, You hauled my Paige up from Florida! I was highly satisfied. Way better than some brokered open-trailer nomad.
And thanks for the personal experience info on an "old" car.
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27 minutes ago, Scooter Guy said:
Depending on just how "analog" of an experience you want...
Thanks Scooter Guy for that crisp and clear analysis. Your comment on early Mustang part availability (at least for now) is one of the things that made me start considering that car.
I hadn't mentioned safety-related things; honestly I'm kind of a troglodyte on that subject. It's an area of added complexity that I'm willing to bypass. Some people jump from airplanes or climb cliffs or do motocross - I drive cars that don't have seatbelts.
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1 hour ago, Ed Luddy said:
Yes. the list of demands is totally unrealistic. No such car as a non rusting one.
Is it just the rust issue that makes it totally unrealistic? If the rest of it can be done, I may just have to understand and deal with rust.
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When I read what it would take to get the dying heater blower motor out of my Volvo 240 wagon (including the "Sawzall method"), I got rid of the car. Kind of wish I hadn't done that, maybe I wouldn't be writing this stuff now.
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Thanks everyone for these excellent thoughts and observations. To respond to some of the points -
I've been doing some of my own work since my first car, a '48 Plymouth bought in 1973. That needed an engine installed and I added a B-W overdrive. I probably wouldn't want to take on a full engine rebuild, but I can do a lot of simple diagnosis and replacement work, up to replacing a turbo on an '85 Omni GLH. The ease-of-service criteria are so I can be the one to work on it. The Chrysler dealership, limited to young guys with factory flowcharts and OBD 9 or whatever, got completely stuck on the '04 PT Cruiser and actually gave up. (Without telling me.) I understand most modern service outfits won't be helpful for the proposed car.
I grasp the rust problem. I figured it would be one of the hardest parts, and I appreciate everyone's thoughts.
I'm probably in the typical driving range, 10-12,000 miles per year. I'm convinced that people were doing that with production cars 50 years ago. More periodic maintenance than a 2022 car, but I can do that. Grease fittings, plugs, points & condenser, lots of oil changes, etc. - I'm happy doing that if the mechanism is simple and accessible.
And, hmm, at 30 years that would be 360,000 miles. I can see how that might be a challenge for what was being produced 50 years ago, and again appreciate your thoughts on the possible need for multiple cars over time. I'm hoping excellent maintenance and the ability to replace worn-out components (and stockpiling those parts) would get me pretty far along.
I don't mind modifications or upgrades to get closer to the ideal, as long as they don't have too many wires. :-)
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After having several shops wrestle with my not-very-old car (2004) due to large wiring, signaling, and sensor problems, I have had it with cars that must have electronics to move. Things are only going to get "better", with software-dependent cars that will stop when they can no longer take the latest operating system. (Think iPhone 4.) There is no future for me in the world of new cars. Now I have to go backward in time, permanently.
So I want to find something that will last around 30 years (probably won't be driving after that), take care of me, and be rock-simple. These days even something from the '60s or '70s is thought to be an antique, yet those cars were used by millions of people for daily driving, from groceries to cross-country. And they needed no electronic management systems.
Here's what the car needs:
1. Enough acceleration to be sufficiently agile in town.
2. 80 mph on the highway without strain.
3. Not too big - the lamented PT Cruiser is a good size for my garage, though I don't expect to find something quite that small.
4. Weather-tight.
5. Fairly quiet inside.
6. Air conditioned.
7. Cruise control.
8. Reasonably tight handling in curves, doesn't need to be a sports car. Maybe radials would be enough.
9. Rust resistant. I don't want to be struggling with rotting panels, and unfortunately it seems like a lot of steel was pretty poor in that era. And I'm in the northeast in the winter time.
10. Most service can be accomplished with a set of sockets, a set of combination wrenches, some screwdrivers, and a couple of pullers, brake, and suspension tools.
11. No electronic fuel or ignition management systems. (Might grudgingly accept a Pertronix or the like.)
12. A shape that will be pleasant to look at for a long time. Highly subjective of course. (The PT Cruiser was suppposed to be that.)
13. Some carrying capacity - wouldn't have to be more than a trunk & a back seat.
14. Good availability of parts. I know that can change, but broad part availability now would be good, and I can stock up on consumables.
It definitely needs to have hydraulic brakes, and electric wipers, and a good defroster. ☺️
My first thought goes to a '65 Mustang coupe, mild restomod with a slightly warmed-up straight 6 (I love the engine access), 3-speed w/OD or 5-speed, disc brakes, alternator. And a good honest carburetor.
But there must be other stuff that would meet the need just as well, or better. What would you suggest?
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The AACA Library thumb drive files are full-text searchable - a tremendous help in research. I use them constantly. But paper ones are much nice for reading. I'll throw in my list of needs, for after people supply cudaman. :-)
1937-1943, volume 1-7 - all
1944 8- 3,4
1945 9-1
1947 11- 2,3,4
1948 12-1,2
1949 13-1,2
I have a few from the 40s and 50s that I could trade.
Also need to fill in gaps in the HCC Gazette and the Bulb Horn... About 35 years of Gazette are online and searchable, but no such luck for the Bulb Horn.
By the way, much to my annoyance, old magazines do not meet the USPS criteria for Media Mail, because they contain advertising.
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I like to talk about old cars on forums. I'm not too keen on discussing forums on forums. But I wanted to get something off my chest: Forums are a great place to kick back and shoot the breeze, but they are not necessarily suited to being a repository of accurate histories of antique cars.
I've done a fair amount of hired provenance research, and one of the primary things I've learned is that anecdotes are not reliable truth. Stories are not facts. It's possible that they could contain correct information, but they are not proof. The proof of any antique car's history must come from a combination of: photos of the car during its lifetime, from its early condition to the present; dated period documents; other primary or near-primary source material; and first-person accounts.
Even the latter cannot be completely relied upon without some other corroboration. Some people's memories drift after 10 years, 20, 50 years. As an example, it can be shown that a widely-circulated story about a fine brass car, originating with the recollections of the elderly son of its original owner, could not have occurred as related, because public records and period newspaper accounts contradict it.
Anecdotes passed on in good faith are even weaker. Each time the story transfers from one person to the next, there's a possibility that it will drift. The last person in the chain could be faithfully repeating what they heard - so they're not fabricating anything. But if what they heard was inaccurate, faithful repetition doesn't add any validity.
"Well, I got that directly from X, and I know he would never lie." I have no doubt that he would never lie about what he heard. If what he heard was incorrect...
The time when you must be most on your guard is when the car's story makes it somehow special or unusual. "Factory racer", "prototype", "experimental", "transitional car", "formerly owned by Famous Person Z", "raced by Well-Known Driver Q" - you MUST do your own research on stories like these, or see the documents upon which the stories are based. NOTHING else is proof.
Maybe the least valuable histories of all are the ones that are created by simply aggregating the anecdotes and guesswork of other people. I was recently in a side conversation with someone who frequently contributes to these forums, and likes to present themself as a documentor and a clarifier and an authority on cars' backstories. Here is what they wrote to me, verbatim - "My history is just as valid as any one else, even without documentation."
Is this the kind of "authority" you're going to get your facts from? Is this the kind of "history" you're going to believe? About a car that's important because it's a prototype or was formerly owned by Famous Person Z? You can't rely on people like this. You can't even tell who they are. You can't rely on me, either. All you can rely on is documents that I can unearth and present.
Please, be on your guard for anecdotes. Learn to recognize guesswork. And insist on valid documentation. Don't fall into the trap of believing (and repeating) a story on the internet, just because it happens to be written confidently.
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This is serial number 19463. Here's a picture of it from 1979, published in The Steam Automobile, maybe about the last time it ran. It doesn't look like much has changed. The half-height windshield is an interesting modification - makes it look pretty sporty! It has a hood and a headlight bar that I haven't seen on other 735s.
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Fabulous, thank you! This is a 1912 Type 34. Must have been just about new!
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I don't lose interest due to the volume, but unfortunately this forum thread does not function as an archive. It's impossible to find a photo you once saw, without manually scrolling through 400+ pages. This takes way too long for me to be willing to even start. Apart from the frequent lack of identification, which makes it impossible to search, many of the pages are filled with quoted repetitions of already-posted photos, and gigantic personal signature blocks that take more than one screen to even scroll past.
I love these pictures, but I can't get back to them once they are first seen. The true service would be to find a platform that would store photos and allow efficient thumbnails, scrolling, and searching. It would be even better if it allowed community annotation, to gradually improve the ID situation. Then move all these pictures to that. Then the effort that all these people have put in for all these years would actually be permanently available and accessible, and not buried like the Lost Ark at the end of the first movie. :-).
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American Underslung Question
in General Discussion
Posted
Here's a photo of the car pictured at the top of the original post, from 1978, soon after it was restored. It confirms that the toolbox was a later addition. It was probably intalled by Joe Atkinson, who bought the car in April 1986 from restorer Criss Savage, expressly to run the Great American Race. It certainly was an American race, with that car in it! A photo taken the following year shows the race banner and the toolbox. IAtkinson ran the car ran in 3 consecutive GAR's.
I saw this car in the flea market at Hershey about 10 years ago - anybody know where it has ended up?