George Albright

Dear Friends I inspected the Kelsey chassis this weekend,and the writer is exactly correct! The front frame rails have been cut off in the front,probably to eliminate the frame horns. In addition a cross member has been bolted across the frame in the front from side to side,so that in turn the front fully elliptical springs have something to bolt onto. I think this chassis is from a circa 1910-1913 car now that I have looked at the chassis, fenders,non demountable wheels etc. It is currently a 100 1/2 inch wheelbase,but since the frame horns have been cutoff ,we may never know the original wheelbase of the chassis and thus in turn who built it. Our only solid lead is the fenders and the radiator to try to ID the chassis. AND those might not be original to this chassis! Please keep studying! George

PS However,If you want me to mail you one for your son to reproduce some for you,and others,I will be happy to mail you one,so you get it right. Again they are not as sharp as an original to copy. If you have an original one on your car,that would be the ticket. Let me know George

Sorry for not responding promptly. Thanks for the kind offer. However I bought 3 of them off of Ebay from the same guy for $5.00 each. They are repro Model A Duesy hubcap inserts. Fairly sharp casting but not real sharp. I know there are others floating around,and I need to find one or 2 more. Thanks again,Ivan,George.

Does anyone have the phone #s and/or email address of Shawn Hayward of Ottawa Canada? I saw his postings on the Model T club of America,but I cannot email him from there because I am not a member. If you are in fact a member could you please foward my info to him and have him contact me. Thanks,George Albright,Ocala,Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email: gnalbright@gmail.com

Dear Roar: Thanks for the info and tips!! I have not gone to the AACA to get any of my race cars certified,so I have no knowledge of the process. Drop Steve at the AACA an email,and I am sure he will point you to the right person. Sincerely George

Your comment about the frame front ears being cut off is an interesting observation. I will be at my garage where the Kelsey is stored this weekend. I will look and see if the frame rails in the front were in deed cutoff and report on Monday. Thanks for your thoughts! George

Here is a factory photo and info on the back of it,of a 1922 Kelsey production model. It is thought several hundred were built with various 4 and 6 cylinder engines from 1920-24. This car has friction drive in the rear,like my 1917 Kelsey prototype has. Notice how appointed this car is,with a tinted green glass sun visor,Ks on the hubcaps,fancy radiator crest,etc,etc. Any one know where any of these are or parts of them are? Thanks,George

Here is a factory photo and info on the back of it,of a 1922 Kelsey production model. It is thought several hundred were built with various 4 and 6 cylinder engines from 1920-24. This car has friction drive in the rear,like my 1917 Kelsey prototype has. Notice how appointed this car is,with a tinted green glass sun visor,Ks on the hubcaps,fancy radiator crest,etc,etc. Any one know where any of these are or parts of them are? Thanks,George

Here is a factory photo and info on the back of it,of a 1922 Kelsey production model. It is thought several hundred were built with various 4 and 6 cylinder engines from 1920-24. This car has friction drive in the rear,like my 1917 Kelsey prototype has. Notice how appointed this car is,with a tinted green glass sun visor,Ks on the hubcaps,fancy radiator crest,etc,etc. Any one know where any of these are or parts of them are? Thanks,George

Dear Friends I am still in need of someone to haul the Hanover from Orange,Calif to Ocala,Fla. 34471. It is small and light and will fit in the back of a pickup truck. Will pay $600 for the haul,which will cover most of a pickups gas across the USA. Leads to haul appreciated. Thanks,George Albright cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Dear Friends I am still in need of someone to haul the Hanover from Orange,Calif to Ocala,Fla. 34471. It is small and light and will fit in the back of a pickup truck. Will pay $600 for the haul,which will cover most of a pickups gas across the USA. Leads to haul appreciated. Thanks,George Albright cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Dear Friends I am still in need of someone to haul the Hanover from Orange,Calif to Ocala,Fla. 34471. It is small and light and will fit in the back of a pickup truck. Will pay $600 for the haul,which will cover most of a pickups gas across the USA. Leads to haul appreciated. Thanks,George Albright cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Dear Friends I am still in need of someone to haul the Hanover from Orange,Calif to Ocala,Fla. 34471. It is small and light and will fit in the back of a pickup truck. Will pay $600 for the haul,which will cover most of a pickups gas across the USA. Leads to haul appreciated. Thanks,George Albright cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Here is my response back to Karl,posted above,and below this thread. George Albright: Dear Karl; Many thanks for your info. I have spoke to Dan Sheler and he could not remember what publication has the comments in it,that you uncovered. Several months ago Mr. Harris(correct spelling) grandson contacted me,Mr. Wayne Beutel of Michigan. His family had quite a bit of stuff on his grandad and his car. We have a letter whereby Mr. Harris mentions the car was built by employees of the Fleetwood Body Company,whatever that means. 2 months ago Mr. Jeff Lane of Lane Motor Museum of Nashville,bought the car from me,at what I had in it. His committment to restore and display the car convinced me that he was the right guy to take it in trust,for future generations. All of us are continuing to look for info on Harris and the car,and your email is very appreciated! You will notice at the top of this email is a CC to both Wayne and Jeff at their emails. Jeffs email is lane@lanemotormuseum.org Wayne Beutels email is waynebeutel@hotmail.com You are more than welcome to contact me or either of them in the future concerning the car. We are working to research and restore the car as a team! Thanks again,George Albright email gnalbright@gmail.com cell 352 843 1624 - Show quoted text - On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 2:36 AM, Karl Petersen <karlp@firedragon.com> wrote: I saw your queries in the AACA forum. Mrs. Hariss said the body was built by Fleetwood craftsmen. This tends to indicate that it was not built at the Fleetwood shops. I remember the ads from steam car magazines as I subscribed to the Steam Automobile quarterly, the Steam Calliope and the Steam Power Quarterly and have them all. It is not in the Steam Automobile quarterly, though, since I have it on pdf and searched it. The car was written up in the Steam Automobile Bulletin with attached photo, as follows: Dan Sheler writes: I read with interest the recent Bulletin article on the house car built by J. Roy Hunt. I have a similar vehicle that I first saw in Detroit in the 30s. It was built by a Mr. H. R. Harris, a retired engineer. I obtained the car from former SACA President R. A. Gibbs in March, 1993. Mr. Gibbs did not acquire the car from the builder, and does not recall the name of the party he got it from. I have been unable to locate any of the late Mr. Harris's relatives or acquaintances. If anyone can shed some light on the subject, I would like very much to hear from you. Write or phone me - 41 Wayne Street, Grand Rapids, MI 49548, Tel. 616/455-3948. Mr. Harris had obtained the body somewhere and mounted it on a Packard chassis of about 1929 vintage.' The steam generator is a "Thorne Multiple," with forty separate water level steam-generating elements. The burner is similar to a Stanley, but with multiple perforated lava discs instead of a cast iron plate. The rest of the power plant is from a 1922 Stanley 740. All steam components are in excellent condition. Steam Automobile Bulletin, Vol. 8, No. 5, p. 3. Sept/Oct 1994. If you need it, you can find the factory brochure for the Thorne Multiple Boiler on the internet. Karl A. Petersen Boise, Idaho 208 340 4570

Dear Friends: Here is a response to this subject I just received my email. Thanks,George Albright : I saw your queries in the AACA forum. Mrs. Hariss said the body was built by Fleetwood craftsmen. This tends to indicate that it was not built at the Fleetwood shops. I remember the ads from steam car magazines as I subscribed to the Steam Automobile quarterly, the Steam Calliope and the Steam Power Quarterly and have them all. It is not in the Steam Automobile quarterly, though, since I have it on pdf and searched it. The car was written up in the Steam Automobile Bulletin with attached photo, as follows: Dan Sheler writes: I read with interest the recent Bulletin article on the house car built by J. Roy Hunt. I have a similar vehicle that I first saw in Detroit in the 30s. It was built by a Mr. H. R. Harris, a retired engineer. I obtained the car from former SACA President R. A. Gibbs in March, 1993. Mr. Gibbs did not acquire the car from the builder, and does not recall the name of the party he got it from. I have been unable to locate any of the late Mr. Harris's relatives or acquaintances. If anyone can shed some light on the subject, I would like very much to hear from you. Write or phone me - 41 Wayne Street, Grand Rapids, MI 49548, Tel. 616/455-3948. Mr. Harris had obtained the body somewhere and mounted it on a Packard chassis of about 1929 vintage.' The steam generator is a "Thorne Multiple," with forty separate water level steam-generating elements. The burner is similar to a Stanley, but with multiple perforated lava discs instead of a cast iron plate. The rest of the power plant is from a 1922 Stanley 740. All steam components are in excellent condition. Steam Automobile Bulletin, Vol. 8, No. 5, p. 3. Sept/Oct 1994. If you need it, you can find the factory brochure for the Thorne Multiple Boiler on the internet. Karl A. Petersen Boise, Idaho 208 340 4570

Thanks for the response. However please note,that this radiator has a name plate on the rear that says it was made by Bush Radiator Co. Please see photo above, of the plate. Does anyone know what makes used Bush radiators like this? Thanks,George

Can some of you Overland guys look at the radiator and the makers tag on the rear of it,and determine if at least the radiator is circa 1911-16 Overland? Notice the shell is NOT painted. Thanks,George

Guys looking further,I think this chassis is earlier than 1914ish,as the front springs are fully elliptical and not semi elliptical like one many 1912-15 cars such as that period Studebakers,EMFs etc. In addition the flatness of the top of the fenders,and their drop down curves at the running board looks earlier too. Geo.

Thanks guys for the tips. Yes the radiator looks like Studebaker but I went to the Standard Catalogue of American Cars and studied circa 1914-16 Studebaker small 4s. Wrong neck on the radiator and around 106 inch WB verses mine at 100 or 100 1/2 inch WB. It definitely not a circa 1916 Grant. Wrong wheelbase and front springs are totally different as is radiator shell. Thanks for the Messnich Phipps tip. Not one of their chassis either. Forgot to mention that if I can ID the chassis,then it probably carries the same touring car body that Kelsey originally had on this chassis and then discarded in the 1930s. I would like to remount a "correct" touring car body,or just put on speedster cowl, bucket seats,and oval or round gas tank like 1913-14 Overland,Metz,Hudson factory speedsters and leave rear friction drive unit exposed for display purposes. Anyone got any speedster components like I mentioned? Thanks,George

Dear Friends My 1917 Kelsey prototype friction drive chassis arrived today! It was the basis for the production 1920-24 Kelsey friction drive cars built. Mr. Kelsey writes that he built this chassis in the latter part of 1916 and finished it in 1917. Since he used a second hand touring car body,the chassis was probably used as well,and is probably from a 1913-15ish car.Mr. Kelsey wrote in an article that the car was painted grey and had a used touring car body,which he disposed of off of this chassis in the 1930s and then stored the chassis. The fenders are still original paint grey.The chassis is originally from another production car and I need your help IDing the base car chassis that he modified with this rear friction drive mechanism,and probably installed this 1916 or 1917 Messnick Phipps 22 HP engine in. It is possible that Messnick Phipps was merely the foundary and the engine was actually made by Perkins of Detroit. The brass tag on the engine says Messnick Phipps Detroit,and is hand stamped Model B,Engine # 152. Anyway back to the chassis; It is either 100 inches or 100 1/2 inch wheelbase. The wheels have 30 X 3 tires on them,and are non demountable. Notice the front axle spring perches have a second unused hole,like the front axle originally had a wider set of springs on it than now.The radiator has a tag on the back of it that says Bush Mfg. Co. Hartford,Conn. with a high serial # stamped in, that being 13,141. The radiator has the shape of a teens Overland,but has the wrong style radiator neck. This neck is round,and Overlands were oval necks.. The chassis is also not Ford Model T,and not 1911-17 Metz,and not 1916 Grant and not 1916-17 Woods Mobilette,even though the last 1916-17 Woods used the same MP 22 HP engine as this.The fenders drop down on the front and rear running board like those off of a touring car,not a roadster or speedster. Anyway we know from the builder it was a touring car with grey paint and red leather. It is possible that the radiator does NOT belong to this chassis,but was added by Kelsey. It has 2 springs in the front and one in the rear,but may have had 2 originally,but Kelsey may have gone to one in the rear when he added the friction drive rear. Your thoughts please? More photos avail. by email request to me. George Albright,Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

Dear Friends My 1917 Kelsey prototype friction drive chassis arrived today! It was the basis for the production 1920-24 Kelsey friction drive cars built. Mr. Kelsey writes that he built this chassis in the latter part of 1916 and finished it in 1917. Since he used a second hand touring car body,the chassis was probably used as well,and is probably from a 1913-15ish car.Mr. Kelsey wrote in an article that the car was painted grey and had a used touring car body,which he disposed of off of this chassis in the 1930s and then stored the chassis. The fenders are still original paint grey.The chassis is originally from another production car and I need your help IDing the base car chassis that he modified with this rear friction drive mechanism,and probably installed this 1916 or 1917 Messnick Phipps 22 HP engine in. It is possible that Messnick Phipps was merely the foundary and the engine was actually made by Perkins of Detroit. The brass tag on the engine says Messnick Phipps Detroit,and is hand stamped Model B,Engine # 152. Anyway back to the chassis; It is either 100 inches or 100 1/2 inch wheelbase. The wheels have 30 X 3 tires on them,and are non demountable. Notice the front axle spring perches have a second unused hole,like the front axle originally had a wider set of springs on it than now.The radiator has a tag on the back of it that says Bush Mfg. Co. Hartford,Conn. with a high serial # stamped in it,that being 13,141. The radiator has the shape of a teens Overland,but has the wrong style radiator neck. This neck is round,and Overlands were oval necks.. The chassis is also not Ford Model T,and not 1911-17 Metz,and not 1916 Grant and not 1916-17 Woods Mobilette,even though the last 1916-17 Woods used the same MP 22 HP engine as this.The fenders drop down on the front and rear running board like those off of a touring car,not a roadster or speedster. Anyway we know from the builder it was a touring car with grey paint and red leather. It is possible that the radiator does NOT belong to this chassis,but was added by Kelsey. It has 2 springs in the front and one in the rear,but may have had 2 originally,but Kelsey may have gone to one in the rear when he added the friction drive rear. Your thoughts please? More photos avail. by email request to me. George Albright,Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Looking for a 1920s aircooled OR later water cooled V-twin 12-15 HP engine and transmission setup,used in 1921-27 Hanover cyclecars,made in Hanover,Pa. Leads appreciated. Hanover had outside suppliers cast the parts,but the engine design was theirs,and this engine and trans was assembled in their factory. I have one of these cars,and looking for spares and other cars and owners. Thanks,George Albright,Ocala Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Looking for a 1920s aircooled OR later water cooled V-twin 12-15 HP engine and transmission setup,used in 1921-27 Hanover cyclecars,made in Hanover,Pa. Leads appreciated. Hanover had outside suppliers cast the parts,but the engine design was theirs,and this engine and trans was assembled in their factory. I have one of these cars,and looking for spares and other cars and owners. Thanks,George Albright,Ocala Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

Looking for a 1920s aircooled OR later water cooled V-twin 12-15 HP engine and transmission setup,used in 1921-27 Hanover cyclecars,made in Hanover,Pa. Leads appreciated. Hanover had outside suppliers cast the parts,but the engine design was theirs,and this engine and trans was assembled in their factory. I have one of these cars,and looking for spares and other cars and owners. Thanks,George Albright,Ocala Fla. cell 352 843 1624 email gnalbright@gmail.com

I don't want to sound curt,but why don't you use a 1928-31 Ford Model A engine which looks alot like this,until you find the real thing. Good Luck,George Albright,Fla.