Ben Popadak

Not Ron but he will be around shortly, Ron can smell steam. The engine is a 1902/1903 engine built by Mason for Locomobile's competitors or could be used as a replacement engine for a Locomobile. It is not a Locomobile. Locomobile never had two pumps on the front of the engine, look for those two pump brackets. Not my words, look it up in the book Locomobile Genealogy by Don Ball available through the Stanley Museum. Mason started out building Locomobile's engines in 1899 and through about mid year 1900. Then Locomobile themselves built their own engines and they had iron lower frames. Masons have brass lower frames. With the 1902/1903 Mason engines, the frames widen out on the sides after they leave where they bolt up to the cylinder castings. A fair bit rich on the price if you ask me. Pretty does not mean rebuilt.

Twenty years ago and a thousand miles away at my old house, I got told of a Cleveland chassis owned in Texas or Oklahoma by a Mr. Mays I think. He at one time had been a president of the Horseless Carriage Club. At the time I even had the shipper of the company I worked for who had arranged to bring the chassis to me on the back of a load he was bringing in. But for some reason I hesitated, my loss. It may have been that there was only one surviving complete car which would have made the restoration difficult at best. So I will cheer you on and I look forward to seeing photos of the progress you make. I do wish you well. Thank you for letting me know what became of her. I'm sure she has a great home!

Hello Alan, Questions 1 - 6, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, Yes, Probably would sell it but ??. no other gas Locomobile parts as my last Locomobile sidelight I traded for some Maxwell pieces in Utah. Okay Alan, what year is the rear axle cover? I can't find any pictures on-line of the back ends of Locomobiles. Ben

I'm sure it must be 1899 Locomobile as all Locomobiles are 1899.

The Model C was for all practical purposes a replacement engine as new steam production had largely waned. That said then, 14" burners were a standard small burner in original old small steamers and 16" burners would be a good size step up in stream quantity.

The SACA, Steam Automobile Club of America, people use to have drawings on making a Locomobile/Mobile body and some sketches on the frame. Just add a little water for steam and you are ready to go, I'm sure.

The Virtual Steam Car Museum website says the Mason Model C was first advertised in October 1903. That seems about right. Most of the drawings I have are hard to read but some you can read the 1903 date. Alan, you asked about the bigger Mason engine which I believe is the one shown in my first picture. I would have to check it out again but when I got it I believed it was around a 10hp. I got that engine close to the Grout factory with some smaller Grout parts. I presumed that the engine might have been for a larger Grout as they made some with 10hp horizontally mounted engines. Yes she's a beast to move around. I believe Grout got their engine from Mason but they were also more customized for them then for other manufacturers. The small Grout engine had their name cast into the steam chest cover and also into the bronze piston rods.

Enclosed are photos of an 1899 Locomobile engine that was made by Mason. Locomobile is credited with building 350 cars in 1899 making them America's largest automobile producer. Previous to this style of engine made for Locomobile, I doubt that Mason made more than a single experimental engine here or there, maybe even for Whitney The serial number on this engine is 184 and it got away from me when I was trying to acquire it. I have since seen several others and was told by a collector that the very first engines did not have serial numbers. I can confirm that two I personally inspected did not have serial numbers that I could find and the same in another engine I inspected only through photographs. This engine is easily identified by it's crankshaft main bearing caps. They have a horizontal split when the engine is standing up. This style of engine is used up til about engine number 200. You will notice that the one pump bracket on the brass frame is broken off. The early pump brackets were thinly made and susceptible to breaking. There would be a lot of early automotive history to this engine if it could only talk. I wouldn't hesitate to say that this engine is probably from one of the first 1000 cars built in America.

Hello Ron, I was waiting for you. I must compliment you, I always do learn something new. My information on Penney comes from the The Stanley Steamer, America's Legendary Steam Car, by Kit Foster. Yes it is a Stanley Museum publication but it uses period literature, letters, trade journals and other information to back itself up. And yes the museum does have a fair collection of original Stanley information. I couple months ago I went to visit an early Locomobile in a private collection. One of my compadres got a real kick out of an original Whitney letter they had from the early 1940s? written to the steamer's old owner where Whitney describes finding the Stanleys underneath his car. In the Stanley Steamer book it mentions that Whitney talks about having Duryea, Olds, Pope, Knox, and Ford over to visit him. It also says that the Stanleys were frequent visitors in 1895 and 1896 and that Whitney gave them many pointers on the design and building of steam automobiles. But then at the Charles River display in 1898, the Stanleys cranked up the steam pressure on their car and walked away from all the other vehicles there and I dare say, stole Whitney's thunder.

Hello Alan, Mason was an early industrial steam machinery manufacturer in the Boston area. When the Stanleys needed an engine for their car in the late 1890s they had Mason design one up. However it weighed as much as they envisioned for the whole vehicle. They then asked Penney in Mechanic Falls Maine to help them and he is credited with the design for the production steamers. The photo I have seen of the Penney engine shows it to be very close in looks to a Mason but with no Stephenson link for reverse. Old wives tales said that Penney made the first handful of engines but they were a small operation and Mason was right in their neighborhood. Not all Locomobile engines are Masons, not all Masons are Locomobile. Maason made the Locomobile engines from 1899 to maybe midyear 1900. My guess would be the first 1000-ish engines were Masons. Masons have a brass lower frame. In 1900, at roughly engine 1000-ish, Locomobile started making their engines and they have iron lower frames. Mason wasn't bashful about selling engines. If you were a steam manufacturer trying to copy Locomobile, Mason would be happy to sell you an engine. While Locomobile in 1899/1900 was Mason's biggest engine buyer, when Locomobile left them, they concentrated on the 2nd place guys (Mobile?), the 3rd place guys and anybody else they could sell too. If a steam engine has an iron frame, it isn't Mason. If the Mason engine has two holes on the front of the engine for pumps, it's not Locomobile. Locomobiles only ever came with one pump bracket. If the Mason engine has two double crosshead slides, it isn't Locomobile as it's a newer change. I've never seen a duplicate to prove it but I suspect Mason numbered their engines for manufacturers and not for themselves. I believe you might find say a no. 500 in a Locomobile engine, a Mobile engine, a "mom and pop" car company engine and ??. I also think that there are Mason engines, newer built say with double crosshead that have low serial numbers and their owners will swear are Locomobile engines but I don't believe so. The Model C Mason was a later upgrade to a beefier engine. They were never used in Locomobiles but should drop right in as a replacement. The bigger brother to the Model C is HEAVY and a hernia in the making. There is a lot of brass in that lower frame. I suspect that few of these engines were made as they were near the end of steam circa 1903/1904. Not sure who actually used the larger engine but I suspect Grout used them in their larger models and they were one of the few manufacturers still trying to make a go of steam. http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/images/vscmimages/mason_regulator_company/websized/mason_regulator_company_1902_automobile_appliances.pdf And last but not least, I must say that Penney, Mason and the Stanleys were Maine boys who had to move out of state to make a living. Some things never change.

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21917/lot/277/ The car sold at auction in 2014. The nameplate lists serial numbers in the year 1900 but then the car is advertised as an 1899. I wonder how people can keep a straight face sometimes when they are trying to sell their cars to others.

Hello George, So what is the diameter?

Hello Ron, Just looked up the book you talk about. That's one I've seen but never bought. I always thought it was just a picture book but I think I know where I can get a copy. The high serial numbered Locomobile engine is a few hours away. Would like to go back there but I don't have any immediate plans. Rebuilding it would have been a big undertaking as it was missing parts and the frame was damaged. 1901 Locomobile, 1901 Conrad, so what's next? Ben

Locomobile rants: Two years ago I went to see and buy a rough banded Locomobile engine. Can't remember the specific serial number but it was above 5000, maybe 5200 something or 5300 something. While there I got offered another, better piece of candy and I forgot all about the Locomobile engine. I completely agree with Ron that the vast majority of 1899s, aren't. And yes, when I someday get my own Locomobile, I too will call it an 1899. According to The Stanley Steamer by Kit Foster, F.O. Stanley said he could not engage in the manufacture for one year, from May 1, 1899. The Horseless Age magazine said in their June 7 edition that "Stanley Bros, Sold out" Initially the new car company was supposed to be the Automobile Company of America but it was soon found out that that name was already taken. http://www.virtualsteamcarmuseum.org/makers/automobile_company_of_america.html Don Ball's book the Locomobile Genealogy book said 350 Locomobiles were made in 1899.

How did this old topic wind up in Cars For Sale? Your engine is a Locomobile engine made by Locomobile. My engine above is probably a Locomobile engine made by Mason. After about the first 1000 engines Locomobile started making their own engines. Somewhere's I believe in 1901 Locomobile changed their plain steam chest cover to one that had their name cast on it. So off hand without having a serial number, I believe your engine is 1901 and newer. There are round bosses that are cast as part of the lower frame. These brackets hold round horizontal shafts. The round brackets are half way down on the front and on the back in pictures 1 and 3. Check all three of those 3 brackets, two on the back (picture 3) and one on the front (picture 1). The fourth bracket would be underneath that pump bracket you have tie wrapped to the engine. Basicly, where it says "Patent applied for", look on the remaining brackets. The serial number years are listed in Don Ball's Locomobile Geneology book. I would have to dig it out but would be happy to if you can find her number.

If that Metz is a Wells Museum car than it could very well have been there for decades. I first went in there 40 years ago and I've been in there maybe all of half a dozen times. . The place 40 years ago that I remember was fairly primitive but I remember the cars being very old and more of the barn find look. Fast forward 15 years ago I found the place again after moving back to the area. The cars were very beautifully detailed, quality cars, with a goodly number of early models and unmolested original cars. The building didn't do the cars justice. Cars were practically touching, the nose of one was right up to the back end of the car in front. In short to take one car out of the pile would entail almost moving half the cars out. I don't know of one of their cars being publicly displayed at a local car show. I believe most of the cars never saw any use. It was sad to hear that they weren't opening again when they got to the end of the 2013??? year. I tried calling to find out what was to become of some Stanley pieces but couldn't get anywheres. No way could I find contact information through the internet. Letters got returned. I fell in love with the barn find U.S. Long Distance they had 40 years ago behind chicken wire and often wondered what became of it. I talked with Doug a couple of years ago who got the car.

Got the engine back this fall. It was with a friend for a year while he copied a few parts for his own engine.

Rushmore spotlight, big 6 vent, needs work, $275 Sidemount carbide generator, w/splits, $450 White 3 sight glass, $85 Kingston 4 ball carburetor, backwards to a Model T?, $125 4 speed outside shift quadrant, iron, $150 Jericho No. 1 exhaust horn, aluminum, $325 Eisemann type BD mag/bat/coil switch, $450 Manzel 5 feed brass oiler, class K, $450 Solar 1076 carbide headlight, no glass, $125 American Bosch, Ford T distributor conversion, solid, no cap, $175 First come first serve, bpopadak AT yahoo.com

Not sure on Stanleys but at the last Stanley museum auction in August there was a tank that was described as White that had a Triumph gauge.

The Rambler/Jeffery Hershey meeting will be held on Thursday at 2:00 in the afternoon. Once again Reggie Nash offered to host the meeting and his spots are RWM 6-16 in the Red field. I wonder what car Reggie will be bringing this year? I hope to see you there.

The car was in our local state swap and sellers guide over the winter. I emailed and got a youtube video. I have an unrestored 1910 Maxwell AA (2 cylinder) all apart. The axles and the frame were a dead ringer for Maxwell, circa A series, 1909-1912. There was a drive chain that went through the round driveshaft hole of the rear axle, the arrangement didn't match to me. The body appeared to be made of plywood and was much bigger and didn't fit to the frame too well at all. I was told that the car was an electric but I got no sense of what the electric motor was. I presume it was newer. I don't believe the car was originally 1904 or electric.

Hello again, A copy of the Stanley Museum auction catalog is on the Stanley Museum website. A link is enclosed below. http://www.stanleymuseum.org/upcoming-events The photo enclosed here was from last night's steam team meeting and is of the 30 hp Stanley engine in the auction. Thank you.

Went to the Thursday night Stanley Museum steam team meeting and got a glimpse at the catalog in progress. It has 4 Stanley cars for sale on the cover and in the auction is a 30Hp engine and a couple of of 20HPs. The auction is August 5 and the catalog has to go out for printing soon for it to be ready. I'm sure that the Stanley Museum would be happy to accept pieces up for auction but they probably wont make it into the initial printed catalog. There is always a few extra pages that seem to be photocopied and added. Also please don't forget the Stanley Museum steam seminars August 2-4 and the Vermont steam tour August 6-11. Thank you.

Hello Al, Keep an eye out on ebay, they show up every once in a while.

http://www.prewarcar.com/classifieds/ad219094.html 1903 Dedion Bouton project in Christchurch New Zealand.