1912Staver

But is the document in Ontario something that is issued once and needs to be protected for decades ? You are correct, I don't know about Ontario. Here in B.C. we get a new registration document every time we renew our insurance. You can if you like keep the registration part of the document from previous years renewals and accumulate as many as the number of times you renew your insurance. At registration transfer time you can use any of them , there is no requirement that only the newest one can be used. Or if you lost the document you just pay $20.00 and the insurance agent prints out a new one on the spot. The impression that I get from the reports of title woes I see on these forums is that in some States if you loose that perhaps 40 year old document you are for all practical purposes dead in the water. I am curious about Ontario's practices. I always had the impression they were much closer to British Columbia's approach than a typical U.S,. State issued Title. Greg

Hi Terry, I was briefly a High School Shop Teacher and in 1990 took a for the time comprehensive We did up to a decent standard for the day , 3 D animated , fully rendered 30 second clips, but so much has changed from those days. Hardware and software. Autodesk sponsored, Autocad course. But once I was out of teaching it was all back to pencil and paper. Like so many skills CADD definitely has its usefulness, however the programs have changed beyond recognition since 1990. And if you don't use it , you loose it. I am a bit of a computer clutz,, at the moment I can't even get my new wireless printer to talk to my computer so I can scan some additional Staver material I have. On the ship where I worked up until retirement 1 1/2 years ago I worked with and trouble shot quite a bit of industrial automation, but rarely used " ordinary " computer skills. I am more of a hand skills guy, the virtual world and I have an uneasy relationship. Anytime I have tried CADD in the last decade I get frustrated after a couple of hours of blundering in the dark and revert to paper. We all need about a 36 hour day to get it all done it seems. But thanks for the Fusion 360 tip. I tried a free download of draftsite last year when I had a somewhat complex drawing to produce, but I could not get it working. And unlike a piece of real world equipment the slightest virtual bug often stops me cold. Just not enough underlying understanding of programs. Greg

I have 2 or 3 unidentified pumps myself. I think all of mine are brass bodied. Over the decades I have picked up a number of parts that were quite cheap because the person selling them had no idea of what they fit. Time permitting I should clean them up and post in the " what is it" section. Someone might need what I have. These days so much of my stuff is stored away awaiting a bigger shop where I can have a general accounting of where I stand on this project. For years I thought I would probably move from my current house so I was reluctant to invest in a proper shop building. I have made do with less than ideal sheds etc for some time because of this. But it's looking less likely each year that I can ever afford to move from where I am. Greg

Insurance documents would be very questionable. Like the U.S. there are definitely Province to Province differences. But in Canada we generally use a registration document issued by whatever form our Provincial Motor Vehicles dept. takes. Some Provinces have Provincial Gvmt. insurance rather than the private insurance in most States, but in B.C. at least the Registration is a separate part of the document that MAY as well be your insurance. However in many cases getting a replacement document is easy and straightforward. Even if no paperwork exists; the case with many older vintage cars , there is generally a remedy that does not involve lawyers, Judges, Court Orders, the posting of Bond's and all the other extreme solutions that seem to be required in several U.S. State jurisdictions. Yes, no paperwork in Canada is a hassle, but not a brick wall. The seller should have provided you with his home Provinces registration document and the required transfer of ownership form. Unfortunately it definitely appears they took advantage of you in this sale. Once the transfer of ownership takes place it does not matter what old documentation is produced by someone claiming the car. It has been sold and legally transferred. An exception would occur if a past owner reported the car stolen to the Police, but pretty unlikely. Greg in Canada

There are a few things that are not ideal with life in Canada. But a big bonus from what little I know about old cars and titles is that I am very glad that we do not use them here in Canada. It really puts the owner of very old cars in a spot when you must have a title but in many cases they didn't even exist back beyond a certain point in time or in certain States, or with a certain age of car, . And I thought Kafka understood about all there was to know about dealing with bureaucracy. He could have written a few further volumes just about vintage cars and the DMV. Greg in Canada

The Mormon Meteor III. Ab Jenkins. 1937 version I think. Greg in Canada

I am in total agreement Terry. I do have enough of the internals to reverse engineer quite a bit of the basic dimensions. I am just reluctant to invest the sort of time and money that would be necessary to create castings that are functional but only close - ish to the originals. I also have probably a decade of work to do on the car itself. From both a time and money point of view. There is still a possibility that either the correct engine or parts will show up or that I can find an alternate engine. Work on the car can continue regardless of what is ultimately done about the engine. AHa , I do appreciate your recommendation about Lee Stohr. But work of that sort is clearly beyond the affordability of a retired Canadian living on a rather modest pension. Not only is my Canadian dollar worth little more than dirt compared to the U.S. dollar but there are blessed few of them left over after the monthly expenses are covered. Lee Stohr can clearly do remarkable work and it is definitely of value to see how he approaches the process. As I have mentioned before, it may take a change of ownership to solve this cars problem. Greg

Hi Wayne, for simple castings patterns can sometimes be either extremely simple or done as you suggest. For something as complex as a 4 cyl crankcase I can't see how you could not use patterns. Terry Harpers excellent threads show just how much pattern work is necessary even for comparatively simple parts like his manifold and coolant pipes . A crankcase is a very complex 3 dimensional shape and will require an equally complex pattern and cores. Even if a person can scan an existing crankcase and 3 D print the patterns and cores it is still a sizable undertaking. People have definitely successfully cast replacement crankcases in the past but it is none the less a major project. And in most cases it is done to replace a part that has failed , with the failed part in hand to work from. Greg

That's a great restoration AHa ! Quite remarkable you were able to save one of the true pioneer auto's. Greg

Yes, I remember well that in about 1970 ; I was 12 at the time, that many adults would come to the conclusion that people driving things like 1958 Buicks had to be only a small step from being on social assistance. Or teenagers. One of the " kool girls " at my Junior high had a boyfriend who drove a 1960 Buick convert. I thought it was a very nice car but I bet he could not have got more than $100.00 if he tried to sell it. There was a huge scrap yard down on the waterfront circa 1972 that had a pile of 1950's cars. About 10 cars high and at least 50 cars by 50 cars. Probably many were driven there. Greg in Canada

There have been a number of heroic restorations of significant cars badly damaged in fires over the years. A massive undertaking usually reserve for truly exceptional cars. It's great that someone took on a task like this for a desirable but not super valuable car like a production Riley. Greg

There is quite a bit of history about this car and its owner on the " Old Motor " site. Greg

I think you are on the right track Craig. Most likely just the frame and some of the major castings re used, possibly not even the frame except as a pattern for a new one. But still a great outcome from what many would have seen as a complete and total loss. Greg in Canada

Hi all, the F.W.D. truck version is from what I can see the Wisconsin that is the best interchange for a Teetor Hartley. Is this what Wisconsin calls the type "B" ? If either of the two later side valve engines , type " C " or type " E " are made in the subframe configuration then they would be equally suitable. I have a feeling they are all going to be reasonably difficult to find but at least other possibility's exist. AHa, I agree that a new crankcase casting may be the best. Before I embarked on such a complex task I was always hoping that at least a damaged Teetor would turn up. One may still. There is still a great deal of work to do to the car before I am at the point where I absolutely need an engine to continue. I will follow up on the possible leads some of you have provided. For the time being even if one was available right next door in Washington state I can't even cross the border to get it. So as always with the vintage car restoration game, patience is a virtue. Greg

That makes sense. The 17" would be the truck version ( subframe ) and the 27" would be the car version ( mounts to the main rails). Those weights sound about right. Thanks for the specfications . The other limiting factor when considering alternative engines is the width of the flywheel. The relatively early engines like Teetor and the WW1 era Wisconsin engines use relatively small diameter flywheels that run in the open. Any newer than about 1912 and flywheels enclosed by bellhousings start to become much more common. Almost any engine with a bellhousing will be too wide to mount within a subframe. On some engines the bellhousing is a separate bolt on part and could possibly be left off , but at first many were cast in one piece with the crankcase. Greg

Hi gent's , I gave my frame a quick measurement. It is 17 3/4 " inside dimension in the sub frame rails. The mounting bosses would be roughly 24 " from outside front to outside rear. The engine itself needs to be quite narrow , notice in the picture there is not much except the flywheel that is wider than a couple of inches beyond the subframe. I have most of a spare Packard 2 ton 4 cyl. side valve. I tried a test fit years ago. It was much too wide particularly in the timing gear area and the flywheel. Terry , I think you have written 27 " rather than 17 ". I know the FWD engine is very close . The Stutz version is wider, the mounting arms are cast to mount to the main frame rails in a Stutz. Paul Freehill used to cast the crankcases with the wider mounts so Wisconsin truck engines could be converted to the Stutz configuration. JV, too bad you missed the FWD Wisconsin's. Very nice engines ! I am sure they were scooped up quickly. But when trying to concentrate on a major project it is definitely a good plan to avoid distractions. A mistake I have often made. Its a bit hard to see in these photo's but the truck version is definitely narrower than the Stutz car version. Notice where the water pump is in realation to the frame rail in the second and bottom photo. A Stutz steering box would fit the bill nicely as well. If you are going to dream why not dream big. Greg

I used to work on British Paxman RPH diesel genset prime movers a fair bit. They evolved from a small locomotive powerplant and had quite a few design quirks in order to make them as compact as possible. Not as convoluted as a Napier Deltic,, but they still took a bit of a knack to get them apart without breaking anything and back together without oil leaks. Lots of external oil lines. Fork and blade con rods that came out through the crankcase doors. But very long service engines , ours had hundred's of thousands of hours on them. Greg

I am still amazed with your solution to a very odd cam bearing design. I wonder what Mitchell was thinking ? Is the remainder of the engine a better thought out design ? A BSA Gold Star motorcycle I worked on years ago had bronze thread inserts in the head. Very similar to what you are doing for your crankcase. Each one had two small diameter drive pins to lock them place once they were installed . Done at the factory so no doubt a very accurately made drill jig to get the position just right. Greg

Hi AHa, that looks like extremely nice work . But I can't see it happening on my budget. Hi JV, I haven't done it yet but it is pretty simple to draw up the mounting dimensions working from my frame. It's somewhat buried in one of my sheds at the moment, but once we get better weather I am going to dig it out and draw it up for easy reference. I didn't realise there would be a standard but it now makes sense that I measured a FWD truck Wisconsin "T" head and found it would almost bolt into place. A Wisconsin would be an ideal transplant engine but they seem to be just as hard to find as Teetor Hartley's. All those pesky Stutz owners have seen to that. I think I have most of the skills necessary to produce most of the necessary parts. But I am reluctant to make patterns without a genuine example to work from. If you go to all that work it makes much more sense to be able to produce correct parts and possibly offset some of the cost with sales to others. If I wing it I will end up with castings that are "5 footers ". They would however allow me to assemble the car so it might come down to that, sort of like your water pump solution. Functionally great, and almost certainly a better design featuring improved materials and machine work, but not quite a visually exact duplicate of the original. At one time I thought I had ample time to see this project through. The last 5 years have cast some doubts. I am still only a year and a half into retirement so hopefully a couple of decades still left . Greg

That is essentially correct, plus the quite complicated water pump and all the drive gears. Cam followers and housing , hold downs could be " faked ". Unfortunately I don't travel in American Underslung circles. I believe the only one in the Pacific N.W. was sold to the Coker's about a decade ago. I spoke with Harrold on the phone a few years before his passing but he had no spare parts. Other than the 3 Teetor Staver's ; my basket case, the yellow roadster, and a touring squirrelled away by descendants of the Staver family, and Randy Ema's Auburn, as far as I know all of the surviving engines are in American's. Greg

That engine has some similarity's but I do not believe it is a Teetor. It looks close to the smaller engine American used in the small car they called the Scout. But as far as I know the Scout engines were not built by Teetor Hartley. If it is a Scout engine it will be quite a bit smaller than the engine Teetor built for American { Traveler Model } , 1 year and 1 model of Auburn , Staver { model 35 , 4 3/8 x5 engine , model 40 [ mine ] 4 1/2 x5 engine} later cars ;1913, and 1914 rated the engine at 45 and then 55 HP but the bore and stroke were unchanged from 1911 and 1912 40 HP dimensions. As well as Pilot and one or two even more obscure makes. Note this is the users of the 4 cyl monoblock only. Teetor built a number of other engines as well, the majority which seem to have been used by American Underslung. As far as I no there have been no new crankcases produced by anyone, and therefore no existing patterns. How many is hard to say , however they definitely seem rare. A couple of the Underslung guys searched pretty extensively for a long time. That is not to say they don't exist. But they would definitely appear to be in quite short supply. I have had much better luck with the car itself. Not that I have found a great deal that is specifically Staver but I have found a number of parts that are from the ballpark correct year and quality of car. I have a couple of steering boxes that are close but still not quite what would be ideal so I am still looking in that dept. It needs to be a 1912 ish R.H.D. medium to largish car steering assy so a bit problematic. They usually go for pretty good money so I am reluctant to pay a substantial price for the " wrong " box. If the correct box ever shows up then a going rate price is fine with me. The problem of the engine in particular and to a lesser degree the steering box is the car uses a "sub frame " to mount the engine. This means the width of the nearly always cast in engine mounts common on this era of crankcase are almost always too wide. And with a 100 year old plus casting something that is very difficult to successfully modify. Subframe style engines do exist, I just haven't found one yet that I can afford. The last 5 years or so of parts hunting have seen fewer and fewer parts from this era showing up at Pacific North West swap meets. Not that there was ever a huge amount, but lately almost nothing. I would really like to see the yellow roadster in person some day , but it is the Owl's Head museum on the East coast. Other side of the continent. A very long way to go for perhaps a few more photo's. I expect that one day reality will hit me in the face and I will come to the same realisation Dandy Dave came to with his Stoddard Dayton project. All it really needs is an owner with deeper pockets. Greg in Canada

When I appraised the viability of restoring the Staver pre purchase, I noted it had a decent radiator, a very sound transmission , a complete rear end. and what was there of the engine , block , pistons and rods, crankshaft, flywheel and clutch were in reasonably good condition. In short nearly all of the chassis except wheel spokes , fellow bands, rims and hardware . the correct steering box, and the previously mentioned crankcase, cams, followers ,timing gears water pump and some smaller parts like oil filler crankcase vent etc. I seriously underestimated how difficult Teetor Hartley engine parts were to turn up. And the factor that deep pocketed American Underslung owners were in a much better position to acquire any engines or parts that have come to light in the intervening two decades. They are both in reasonably high demand for Underslung restorations ; a car with far higher market value and desirability then my Staver, and as back up units for people who tour in their Underslung's. If I even had access to a damaged crankcase my chances of casting a new one would be far higher. But to create patterns from air is a far more difficult task for something as complicated as a crankcase. Greg in Canada

There used to be one of these stored above the shop where I worked in the late 1970's . It belonged to a fellow who had been a Studebaker dealer right up to the end. Low miles and decent condition. But in storage for at least a decade at that point. I am not sure what eventually happened to it but I imagine it is still around. I actually sort of like the Hawk . The wagon is a bit too weird even for me. Greg in Canada

Seeker I agree 100% about the much lower risk in rural areas. But you have to remember it's the government making these decisions based on the greatest risk reduction to the large population centers. Trying to decide on say a county to county basis just complicates the process. I can see their point of view, get people in step with what are deemed probable most effective measures. Things can always be re visited and relaxed in a week or two if everything seems to be under control. I think many policy makers are closely watching China for indications of safety or further public risk from their relaxing of restrictions. Remember the latency period, it makes cause and effect linkage appear to be working in slow motion. Greg

I am in 100% agreement with the danger we have put ourselves in due to globalisation. The policy question is completely unknowable at the present ,as is the ultimate cost and death toll. Lets hope the Western World; business , civic and political leaders, learn from the lessons this situation presents. We were already on a perilous path prior to November 2019, many changes must be made. Greg in