1910Hupp

Tom Sorry to hear about the Hupp I know the feeling having just had my engine out with the suspected same thing. In the end was nothing more than a loose flywheel which fooled more experienced people than me . However you are lucky that the crank wasn't damaged . The Joys of old cars --I have just spent several hours in the shed fiddling with the throttle linkage on the Breeze. I wasn't getting full butterfly opening on full gas pedal I fixed it but absolutely no change in performance and the throttle linkage became so complicated that it wouldn't revert back to idle when I let the gas off - I took the whole lot off and went back to how it was previously .. Go figure ! -Karl

Interestingly I took my car for a run this afternoon despite it being in the middle of winter here . In light of this thread I opened it up and 30 mph was about it . Pondering on this I took particular note of where the throttle arm on the Breeze was at full throttle and it appears that the throttle plate is only about 2/3 open at full throttle . Further inspection revealed that there is about 4 .5 cm of movement of the throttle lever on the carb from closed to fully open throttle plate in the X plane . However fully depressed gas pedal only moves the gas pedal carb linkage open 3cm in the X plane ie with the present set up I'm never going to get fully open throttle plate in the carb. The solution is to make a shorter lever between the throttle plate and the gas pedal linkage Which I will get onto on the weekend . The 40-45 mph I have had previously was with the Holly NH set up -I wonder if the getting the throttle plate right will make a difference -I suspect so !

David I would have thought 700 to 800 would be cheap for a restored Breeze . Stan Howe probably charged Phil and I over 1/2 that to restore each of our carbs a few years ago..(and I don't regret a cent of it) Karl

Looking at the Breeze carb again I wonder if it would fit the original manifold it might not be much taller than the original -Hard to tell . At the end of your manifold there would have been circular fitting which had a screw in plug fitting in it . You screwed the plug in to draw heated air into the carb or removed it to increase airflow of unheated air from below (which is what most of us do as restricted and hot air intake severely reduces performance-but in the day encouraged combustion of the then poor quality gas ) -Karl

Butchered inlet manifolds are common to fit whatever Carb replaced the Breeze. Yours is unusual in that you have a Breeze (albeit a slightly different model which I think is taller so modified manifold accordingly ) No replacement piece that I am aware of but Phil has patterns to cast a new one -just search manifold on this forum . I have the patterns for the exhaust manifold . My concern would be that a new manifold may not allow use of the Breeze model you have . A new manifold is obtainable (just casting expense ) The correct H3 Breeze is very (!) hard to find . Took me 4 years (Ebay ) but haven't seen one on there for 7 years -Karl

I agree David rear end ratio is crucial . I'm not sure what ratio I have in mine . I suspect it is 1: 3.63 as I believe that my diff internals are Model T and that is the standard T rear end . What I need to do is jack up the rear end and in top gear turn the engine over once and count the rear wheel revolutions . I know that the Model T had an optional 1:3.10 ring gear which increased speed by about 7 mph Not sure a good idea if you want to climb any hills .

I've had mine up to 40-45 mph so they can get up there -but certainly wasn't fun with the steering and lack of shocks and I could feel I was thrashing it - I found myself asking myself why am I doing this and how would I feel when I blew it up - so I backed off. Mostly the max I get up to is about 30 mph and at that speed I figure that I might get some longevity out of my engine. I drive mine frequently but only short distances so the difference in travelling at 30mph and 45mph is about 2 mins when you get there . I do hear of Model 20's achieving up to 50 mph ( Edgars , Eds and Davids off the top of my head ) and while I'm sure they do achieve this speed I don't think they represent the vast majority of Model 20's . The technical adviser for the Model 20 Bill Cuthbert once told me that in his opinion any Model 20 that gets to 30 mph is a good one and one that gets to 50mph is on a trailer ! LOL

I'm not sure that the actual figures are important in a Model 20 . Lets face it they don't go very fast and your aren't going to improve that by increasing the CR by planning the the head cause you don't have one . What is significant is difference between the figures . As in Andrew's case they are an indication of something not right on the out of whack pot . Sounds like a valve grind is in order . I always repeat the test with some thick oil down the offending pot to check its not a ring problem . A vacuum gauge is also a useful diagnostic tool but no facility to attach one on the Hupmobile . I find a timing light to be quite useful I use a standard timing light which I run off a 12 Volt battery and use Lead one and the markings on the flywheel and block to see where we are at. Certainly on my car if set up by the book ie slightly retarded after TDC it performs and starts much worse than if i adjust the ignition to about 15 to 20 degrees advanced

I finally got the time to remove the engine . I had further diagnosed the noise and as it was at engine speed I had ruled out the timing gear I was expecting a big end or worse still a broken crank . Neither of these fortunately -The insides of the engine look great apart from slightly more backlash between the cam and crank gear than I would like. The problem is a loose flywheel . Should be a relatively easy fix -Karl

Interesting I once read something that said the Hupp was rated at 50mph when sold but no one had ever seen one go that fast except on a trailer ( I just thought Hupmoble was using a bit of advertising license, as they did with the model 20 when really only 16.9 Hp! ) Edgar Bowen and David both have or had Hupps that would do these speeds . But it would appear that most of us don't- I have seen 46 mph on my speedo but that is downhill and was pretty scary . I have a theory that timing as mentioned and also valve clearance may be relevant - Edgar certainly set his valve clearance a lot wider than I do-He may have had a high lift cam -Unfortunately Edgar is no longer with us to ask

Either my T was a rocket ship or my Hupmobile has something wrong with it My T was good for 45 mph the Hupmobile is only good for about 35 mph . The Hup Club guru on Model 20's Bill Cuthbert told me 35 mph is a good one . Were you really notice the difference is hill climbing when the T has much more slugging power . The interesting thing with the Hupmobile is that it is fixed ignition and the timing as set up by the instruction manual is retarded after TDC . No kick back but must limit top end speed Having said that I have played with variable ignition and didn't seem to gain much from it -Karl

Its a DU4 CCW (counter clockwise rotation -ie the rarer one) Originally had fixed ignition -I have variable advance and retard on mine but tend to leave it alone as the gains from fiddling with it are minimal in my experience Karl

Interesting the carb looks like it is a Breeze which is the correct make but it is not the correct model for the car. I think this is the Model that Breeze produced before the H3 used on the Model 20. Doesn't really matter they come with all sorts of carbs. I have the correct Breeze on my car but when I got it it was running a Model NH Holley on a butchered manifold. The NH was to big for the little Hupp engine so idle wasn't as smooth as I would like but top end speed was really good -Now I have the reverse with the original carb Idle is great but top end speed is about 35 mph. I've run both Model T's and my Hup. The Hup is a fine little car and I think probably equivalent to a Ford Model R or S in terms of overall performance and usability. The T is more advanced and not quite as fragile it also has the advantage that parts are a lot easier to find . However I consider the T a little lacking in soul compared with the Hupmobile . I weighed all this up and sold the 1913 T -I miss it for Touring but realistically how many serious tours do we do in a 105 year old car ? Most of my running is round town and the Hup is fine for that - Karl

Like all things to do with our cars people with the skill to fix the magneto are becoming a rare breed-However they are out there. If needed we can use my guy but being based 12000 miles away makes this uneconomic for you. People who restore antique stationery engines or early aircraft normally have contacts who can do it for you . They aren't that difficult but a lot easier to work on with the correct tools . Fortunately the DU4 is pretty common ( if not in our anticlockwise rotation) so info is out there if you want to have a go-Karl

I don't have a spare exhaust manifold but what I do have is all the patterns to cast one . The previous owner of my car cast mine when he restored the car and I ended up with the patterns . If you can't find one then I could explore what it would cost to get one cast locally. I suspect should be reasonable as most of the money goes in making the patterns which we already have -Karl

Simon First of all the clutch actuation rod I think has to much play in it This will mean the clutch is not engaging fully Secondly what oil do you have in the gearbox ? - Should be engine oil -the multiple discs in the clutch have to separate and the wrong thickness of oil makes this impossible . Nice last couple of days in Melbourne ! Enjoyed some nice wine tasting in the Yarra valley . Some amazing Shiraz/Syrah ( some bottles of which will cross the Tasman home with me ) However I still believe New Zealand makes the better Sauv Blancs and Pinot Noirs- but maybe I'm just used to our style -Karl

Simon - Will be in Melbourne the week of of the cup Having a break over there with friends . I believe my car is one of the so called Christchurch Six . 500 Model 20's came to New Zealand in 1910 so although not many complete cars there were lots of parts around. In the 1980's a group of guys in Christchurch pooled all their parts together and there was enough parts to make 6 cars. At the moment my car is laid up with an ominous rattle on start up and shut down . I suspect a loose timing gear on the end of the camshaft . When I get back form Melbourne I have a further 2 weeks of work and I will get into the engine then .

Where about's are you in Oz? As David says the shape of the gas tank and other features suggests more likely 1910 Not that it matters much . Down this part of the world the chances of finding a 110 year old car that has not been messed with are very slim. Yours has been messed with a lot less than some . Mine came with the butchered inlet manifold and a Holley NH carb. I converted it back to the Breeze with a manifold that came out of the States . Is now original but sometimes I wonder if was the right thing to do . The Holley NH is designed for the larger Model T engine which means the carb airflow is to large for the Hupmobile engine - The result was a slightly erratic idle but great pick up and top end speed . My car idles well now but pick up/ top end speed has taken a slight hit -significant when you are playing with only 35mph to 40mph . I have heard stories of 50mph but even the guru of Model 20's Bill Cuthbert says that any thing that can get over 30 mph on the flat is a good one . The Breeze is also a little tricky to restore -Both Phil and I sent ours to someone in Montana who did a great job of restoring them The Hup is fun to drive They can and did do large mileages in the day - Karl

Phil - I suspect that it is not getting enough air . The air valve was designed to feed more air at speed in response to the vacuum signal . The Venturi feeds too much fuel and not enough air at open throttle and the air valve is designed to correct this . Try backing off the air valve spring a little -Karl

I find that I am virtually stopped when I go into 1st Double declutch and it seems to snick in nicely . Unfortunately the Hupp is inactive currently . An ominous rattle when I start it up and when I shut it down . I suspect the timing gear is loose but will need to investigate further when I get time -Karl

Sorry I don't have any spares -I did have another original owners manual but David ended up with that I can copy anything you want -Karl

The 23 Hupmobile is a generation ahead of the Model T in development and it shows . I have owned and driven extensively a 1913 T Mine was really reliable but had no water pump No oil pump and of course the planetary transmission . Interestingly comparing the T to my Model 20 Hupmobile it was the T that was the generation ahead (detachable cylinder head , Advance and retard on the ignition , Proper radiator fan , Flywheel at the back of the engine etc) I consider the Model 20 to be more akin to the Ford Model S even looking a bit like it -Not really a surprise as Bobby Hupp worked for Ford prior to setting up his own company. Despite the T's advantages over the Hup 20 to me it was a little soul less and when I chose to rationalise my veteran collection it was the T that went -Karl

All the best Mine all came off Ebay but has taken at least 10 years to build up the collection. Virtually nothing is available in New Zealand Karl

I have 1. Original Owner manual 1910 2. Original Canadian Parts List and Prices Nov 1913 3. Original Breeze on Carburetors and Engine Troubles Booklet 4. Original "One Thousand Miles through Snow Drifts -Details the trip from Detroit to New York in Winter 1909 -Signed by one of the three Drivers 5.Original " Hupmobile The 4 Cylinder 20 HP Car Extraordinary" (missing two pages) 6. Original "The Taste of Service " Details the use of The Hup 20 by the US Army 7. Original " Round the world in a Hupmobile (the Conquest of the Orient)" 8. Copy of the original DU4 Magneto manual (I have tried to get an original but very rare as of course was the fixed timing model DU4) Karl

One of my friends used a Subaru starter on his veteran - Small compact and didn't draw a lot of current Worked very well