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#508630 - 05/09/08 11:59 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 'Reatta1']
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Dave@Moon
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 7381
Loc: Fairfield (Cincinnati), OH
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Dave, I worked with liquid hazardous materials for many years and am quite familiar with the necessary precautions to take with indoor storage.
Never the less this is a daunting thing to do. If your homeowners' insurance company discovers this you will almost certainly be canceled immediately. To give you some idea what'll be needed to get back in their good graces, here's a link to the Oregon Natl. Guard's indoor storage regulations. Note that the regs call for a dedicated room if you only store over 60 gallons, and that between 10 and 60 gallons you're talking about expensive fire-proof cabinetry and a ban on hazardous activity (especially and specifically welding!). The extreme degree needed to make something like this safe, especially in an active workshop, would be beyond almost anyone's capacity.
Should you have a problem and this stuff causes a fire or is even just involved, you can be guaranteed that your homeowner's policy will not apply.
Not only that, but almost any fire code will ban indoor storage of more than 2 gallons of gasoline, and then only in well marked designated containers. If you do have a prooblem and the local fire company needs to come you can expect a stern and expensive set of dealings with them as well.
I never inspected a single industrial facility that stored containerized fuel indoors. None had drums/containers exposed to the elements either, except for some with exposed waste drums which had very short-term storage limitations. I don't think there's a set of circumstances imaginable where storing a drum of gas indoors is a good idea, let alone in a home situation.
You're literally playing with fire. 
And I haven't even mentioned the potential chemical exposure from leakage and normal vaporization. If your workshop is part of your main dwelling, this becomes a 24/7 situation. If it is typical in being air conditioned in the summer and heated in the winter, with litle ventilation, you're talking about 24/7/365. Not good!
_________________________
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
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#508696 - 05/10/08 11:36 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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'Reatta1'
Member
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 2021
Loc: Oregon
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Dave,
Your concern for my situation and well being is appreciated, it really is. And what you point out is excellent information to all on this forum. However, in my case it is only partially applicable. When I said the barrel would be going 'in the shop' I should have also mentioned that my 'shop' is a large pole building with what you would call a 'lean to' on one side. This is a three sided area that is not enclosed and that is where the barrel is going. A little less convenient than sitting where it was between the front doors on the concrete apron. I don't have a barrel cart and it was just easier to drop it there than move it around the corner through the gravel. Also, be assured that I do know what I'm doing around this stuff. I put in 20+ years running a plant where we manufactured inks for rubber stamps, lumber grading, egg and food marking and used various solvents, chemicals and caustic cleaners and degreasers. I was responsible for OSHA compliance for storage, usage and transport of all that. In my many years of experience, from growing up on a farm in North Dakota, to serving in the Navy where I took schooling in aviation mechanics, to my years running the production facility, I've learned quite a bit and the biggest thing I've learned is that all the regulations in the world are useless if someone does something stupid or with lack of common sense. I pride myself in knowing the difference. I don't create situations that could cause a mishap. Where that barrel of gas is going is not enclosed, has no ignition source, seepage or spillage will not be a concern and will still be under enough cover to keep from getting water on the top. Treatment with fuel stabilizer and water remover will do the rest.
Anyway, thanks again for your concern and posting good information for all of us.
_________________________
'There is no vaccine against stupidity'
I was always taught to respect my elders but, it keeps getting harder to find one
01 Park Avenue
93 Regal coupe
88 Reatta (Black Beauty)
66 LeSabre convert.
89 3/4 ton Silverado
BCA # 39316
Reatta Div. # 644
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#508791 - 05/10/08 11:33 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 173
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Moon is right about hazardous materials. The OEM Paint Dept., wipes bodies down with alcohol. The containers are electrically bonded to ground, and the spent rags are stored in steel drums with solid lids.
'Paint' has a separate building that is explosion proof (the 'paint kitchen', where they store all the colors of paint, and thinners). All spray booths are explosion proof as well.
Gasoline is stored in the outside 'tank farm,' as well as brake fluid, antifreeze, oil, washer fluid, etc.
Where gas is dispensed inside, workers stand on grates as the area is prepared for spills. High-volume blowers, suck air from underneath the vehicle, to outside, all day.
Welding and propane tanks are chained outside, to a thick cement barrier wall.
Did you know your home garage is classified as a 'hazardous location'? Think of all the gas, paint, thinners, lawnmower, weedwhacker, edger, & your CAR! It all sits in a confined space, usually with no ventilation.
Electrical outlets must be four feet above the floor because of fumes.
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#508823 - 05/11/08 09:27 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: HurstGN]
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Dans 77 Limited
Member
Registered: 09/20/01
Posts: 317
Loc: Pgh Pa
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and replace the lower intake manifold gasket. Yup, same one that's in dispute by a class action suit right now
************************************************************
Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA.
Dan I need to talk to you. Whats this about a class action on the intake gaskets?!?!? If you remember I had to get them replaced on my Impala when I got it (Ended up driving that prizm  for a few weeks)
Secondly the best dealer service Ive found around here so far is Cochran in Robinson. They are the only ones Ill go to.
_________________________
Dan Dugan Live in the Pittsburgh area ? Looking for a chapter ? Check out the Pittsburgh Tri-Shields at www.pittsburghbuickclub.org 67 Skylark 68 Wildcat convertible 77 Limited 93 Silverado 4x4 02 Impala 04 Malibu
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#508847 - 05/11/08 11:48 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Dans 77 Limited]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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Several comments -----
As Roberta mentioned, GM Warranty work is way down from what it was 7 years ago. The spikes we've seen on particular warranty parts are not as wide nor as high as they were back then as, generally, less vehicles are involved (for whatever reason). It used to take a few years for everything in a particular situation to be replaced, now it takes about 6 months with a few stragglers every so often. As a matter of course, our service advisors check for outstanding "campaigns" on each vehicle that might be affected by them--taking better care of the customer and also generating a little work in a mutually beneficial situation.
What a dealership's parts department does for customer discounts is highly variable. Some do not give their employees very much discount on parts (in some cases, the auto supplies can sell the employee the same part for less money, if they give any additional discounts due to where the employee works, that's at their discretion) whereas others allow employees to purchase parts at "book cost + ". Just as some dealers would rather sell a walk-in customer a car (flaky credit and all) than sell one to one of their own employees at "cost + $500.00, for example, or let a cross-town rival sell it to them instead. Different orientations of the dealer principle or general manager. It used to be that a dealer wanted all of their employees to drive "their" cars (new or used) as it made a good impression on the public . . . now it doesn't seem to matter at all. And, of course, there have been employees (who seemed like they'd be good employees in many respects) get hired, stay around for 6 months or so, purchase a new vehicle, and leave a month later. Some dealers have also put many restrictions on an employee's personal charge accounts with them, many preferring being paid by credit card instead (parts and/or service). Many orientations on both side of the fence.
As for the "fuel charge", I suspect the dealership did have an hourly employee go fetch the fuel at a station across the street or down the block, which means that that employee's pay check would not vary depending upon what they did. Still, it needs to be "covered" somewhere in the cost of doing business. The additional amount (over pump prices) would constitute a "labor charge" for that particular labor operation. "Rip off"? just depends on the way you look at it.
As for what dealers pay from wholesale fuel distributors, the last time I asked, we were paying about 20 cents/gallon less than pump prices. In reality, why should a fuel wholesaler charge a dealership less money (for less total volume) than they'd charge one of their own filling stations? And just as with pump prices, it can vary from load to load. A 20% discount to a dealer would mean a bunch of money . . . if the filling stations are making at least that much per gallon, then THEY are making a whole bunch of money.
As for the items on the repair order, they look pretty decent to me. The nomenclature for the injection cleaner is just a brand name for the particular cleaner package the dealership uses. Some are a one-part item, others have more than one bottle in the kit. They usually require a hookup onto the injection fuel rail for the injector cleaner. There can also be (other parts in the kit) to spray into the throttle body and also one to add to the fuel tank. What they did would depend upon the particular situation of what was used. Some might claim these things are not really needed, but this can depend upon the brand of fuel (and where it was purchased from) as to whether or not they make any real difference. GM does have a list of recommended fuels, if that matters.
Most "water removal additives" will contain a certain amount of alcohol-based items (as alcohol does attract water) to let the moisture be turned into something that will be more combustible than it was. Many used to have some cleaner additives in them too, but with more recent EPA regulations, most of the former "good stuff" is not around any more (like we had 30 years ago).
Other dealership items . . .
The realm of a manufacturer-franchised dealership is somewhat different that that of a private (or chain) repair shop--at least the way I see it. Different expectations and different realities, in many cases.
In writing an estimate, there can be several "lines" involved. If the estimate is made at "the minimum" of what might be required, if any additions are later needed (justifiably, which the customer must approve before any further work is performed), then the customer might get the impression that their vehicle is being held hostage, broken and now torn-down and inoperable so that it HAS to be fixed at a higher price than quoted. "Bad Press" for the dealership if that happens and a customer that won't be back.
If the estimate is written high enough to cover ALL possibilities of what might need to be done (including all parts), it can cause sticker shock for the customer and then "Rip OFF!" orientations are voiced as the customer doesn't think or understand what it's all about (even if a private shop might also recommend the same things, with the repair being done at the private shop as that's where the car is). Unfortunately, some service advisors do not do a good job of explaining these things in language understandable by the customer. Similarly, if the customer pays-out and asks the cashier what was done, all that the cashier can do is read back what the repair order documents by the technician (also writing in "dealer-speak", which is just what the customer asked for defintions of, so that can cause customer frustations too--especially if it's at lunch time and nobody is there to effectively explain what it all might mean--I've seen that happen, too.
Then, if the dealership operatives don't catch something about to happen, which might leave the customer stranded and in need of a tow to a private/chain garage, then the "I don't know why they didn't see that getting ready to fail . . . " dialogue can happen as the private/chain shop owner gives a sales pitch for THEIR place of business (playing to a highly receptive audience).
In many cases, the dealership operatives are supposed to "place their hand on the fender (like on the Nissan commercials?) and see what's getting ready to fail or if everything's fine" with the vehicle . . . or so it seems. Not quite reality, but still it seems to be expected.
If a customer takes the vehicle in for a seemingly minor repair, a technician might look the vehicle over for things which might soon need attention (in our modern society when there are painly FEW service station operatives to do this at EVERY fuel stop!!!), they might generate an estimate of things that can certainly raise the customer's eyebrows and make them wonder how the car even starts anymore. In some cases, this can be accurate and in other cases, otherwise. This would be where the service advisor should prioritize the repairs as "needed now" or "can wait a little while" before presenting it to the customer.
At the bottom of almost EVERY dealership repair order is the box to check "Return Old Parts To Customer". VERY few customers seem to be aware of that option, but I suspect that only a handfull MIGHT want their old parts back, even if just for verification, as they might not fully know what they had or could tell how it failed, or want to deal with them. Few might even know if what they're looking at came from their vehicle, possibly. Still, it is the customer's right to have the removed parts returned to them in a suitable box or plastic bag if desired. A BETTER orientation would be to personally check back with the service advisor and ask that they accompany the customer into the shop area to see their vehicle (after it is disassembled for repairs) so that what is actually being done can be seen by them. Many shops have "Employees ONLY" or "Customers Are Required to Wait in the Waiting Room" signs posted, but a service advisor should be able to escort them into the repair area for such a looksee (and make them aware of any possible perils of their trip in the process, as slick floors, for example).
Similarly, a technician SHOULD be available to explain what the service advisor might not be fully versed upon in the particular repair situation. Even including escorting the customer into and out of the service repair area OR talking to the customer on the service drive (which might be scary in some situations). In other words, the CUSTOMER needs to feel completely comfortable about what is being done and THEY are paying for--even if it's a warranty repair. Asking questions is the way for that to happen--period.
The SAME situations can and do exist at private/chain store repair shops--dealerships are NOT immune to these thing by themselves! The prices might be different as the prices and expertise of the employees can change, but the possible issues can be highly similar. A good private/chain repair shop service manager will KNOW what the limitations of their facilities and employees are and NOT take in anything or dispatch a job to an employee that probably should not be doing it . . . unless they might be trying to get rid of them by giving them a job that will take way to long for them to do or fail at it (reason for termination). Sometimes, even a relatively simple repair turned into a nightmare! There might be ASE signs hanging in the shop, but that does not mean that all of their technicians are ASE certified at that point in time. ASE certification is not a magic bullet of compentency, but it's supposed to help. Personally, a shirt sleeve full of course-completion patches CAN denote a certain level of competency (which MUST be maintained), but not for ALL vehicles of ALL years, typically, but later model vehicles with electronics and fuel injection, but what matters is if they can do the job right even if it's an oil and filter change (tire rotation, with tire pressure sensors is not a part of that situation any more) at least to me.
In reality, it will take several trips to a particular repair facility to make a good determination of who is good at what and why. Over the years, I've seen many repairs generated by "fast lube" chain employees putting the wrong fluid in the right places. One lady's Riviera started slowing down for now reason, even at WOT, on the freeway. A "fast lube" operative, a few days earlier, had put the wrong fluid in the brake master cylinder reservoir. It caused things to expand in the brake system which put pressure into the system (as if the brakes were being applied by the foot brake). A quick inspection revealed why it happened. The lady was able to get to the shoulder of the road to make a safe stop. When presented with documentation, the lube facility paid the bill. Or the time a tire store stripped a lug bolt thread in the brake hub of a Mercedes convertible . . . fixed by the extended hours service at a Mercedes dealership--the tire store didn't care about cost, just get it fixed at the dealership (seems like it was about $700.00, parts and labor, 25 years ago).
So, NO repair facility is immune to flaky deals, but it seems that dealerships get more "bad press" (at least initially) than private repair shops do as the customers tend to hold them to higher standards of execution or excellence than a private/chain repair shop (OR the private shops can tend to side-step certain repairs, which is their priviledge, which dealerships HAVE to deal with)--regardless of dealership size of newness of facilities. Unfortunately, FEW dealership employees (or even owners and general managers) understand or are aware of this situation. Maybe it's the hourly labor rates, or the direct connection to the manufacturer, or otherwise? Many situations can end up "no win" for the dealership when they could have been otherwise, by observation, but we also hear of some horror stories from private shops (when customers would call to check parts prices or otherwise, at which time I'd inquire what their concerns might be). If a customer doesn't feel they're getting correct information from a repair shop, they'll call around to find somebody that CAN give them credible information. Many customers CAN take what dealership employees might tell them, even something seemingly harmless, "as gospel" and THAT information becomes "correct" in their eyes--something else many dealership operatives are not aware of.
Much of the manufacturer's Customer Satisfaction Index outcomes CAN be the direct result of what happens on the dealership's service drive. No amount of training or looking at "Best Retail Practices" on the particular GM Training website can really address the many variations which can happen between a service advisor and a particular customer at the particular time of day. BUT a seasoned service advisor with good product knowledge CAN and good interpersonal skills can go a long way toward making the customer feel like they are being treated fairly and equitably. The service advisor has NO knowledge of what the customer might have had to deal with earlier that day, which can also put things in a different perspective, sometimes. It's not the easiest job in the world and not one that everybody has the mental orientation to tolerate. Be that as it may.
A service advisor SHOULD have a decent amount of product and systems operation, which can answer and solve many issues on the service drive rather than in the repair shop--user issues, sometimes. Enough mechanical knowledge to credibly explain why something might need to be repaired/replaced, too, but that doesn't always happen. The other side of things is that the service advisor should effectively put the customer's concerns in words to convey the customer's concerns to the technician for an effective diagnosis and repair. Some take these as "hard and fast" rules, but in reality, the better situation is reached in the gray areas on that particular continuum to allow the service advisor to better deal with particular concerns and situations by using their accumulated expertise of what they've observed of vehicles which have been repaired in their shop--plus a great working relationship AND trust of the technicians in what they can and will do in estimating the repairs and then performing the approved repairs.
I understand Roberta's concerns about going to get a flat fixed and the result being two new tires. I've seen that happen, BUT depending upon where the nail might have been in the tire, THAT can determine of it's a repairable situation. One new tire on the same axle set as a worn tire is not a good situation, IF it can be avoided. Plus, if the tires are becoming worn (even highly weather cracked with low miles!), it would be better to go ahead and replace them than return a few months later with another problem. In reality, knowing you've got new tires can result in better "peace of mind" in the coming driving season (and rain!) which can exceed the price of the tires over just a flat repair. Personally, I'd be more concerned that OEM-spec tires (or thereabouts) were what were replaced rather than lesser quality tires and that they will be taken care of by the seller if anything goes wrong. Several ways to look at that situation.
A growing concern, from many of our situations with vintage vehicles, is that many younger techs now coming online in the business have grown up not knowing what "point grease" or carburetors are (OR how to diagnose or adjust them!)--even at dealerships. There MIGHT be some older dealership mechanics who might have expertise in these areas (once they sweep the cobwebs out of the back corner of their mind), but then finding a parts operative who knows what they are talking about OR can effectively transfer that information to an auto supply vendor (with possibly similar "less vintage" age issues) can present possible problems in many areas. Finding and HONEST and CREDIBLE repair shop for that sort of repairs (or possible upgrades to more modern equipment) CAN be better than finding a good place to get an oil/filter change for a daily driver. Still, you have to go in with your eyes open and ask plenty of questions with hopefully accurate repair estimates "up front", with approvals given for additional amounts if needed (just like you'd do at a dealership).
Enjoy!
NTX5467
Edited by NTX5467 (05/11/08 12:18 PM)
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#508953 - 05/11/08 08:01 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: NTX5467]
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GMPARTSMAN
Member
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 189
Loc: Howell Michigan
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I'll jump in this discussion too. Like I've said before, 38 years in GM dealership parts departments, "What a long strange trip it's been".
Everyone complains about our prices. Yes, I will admit AutoZone, Murray's, Pep Boys, et al are cheaper than we are.
But go to one of them and try to get a insturment panel wire harness, a wiper transmission, or even a rear axle shaft. I can bet you will be told it's a dealer item. And these are low volume items, it costs money to build them, store them, ship them to the dealership, and for the persons in the dealership to handle them too. One of the reasons we are higher.
This brings up another part. As a earlier poster made mention of a wiper circuit board, a GOOD parts consultant, person, whatever you want to call them would tell this to you. A average mass merchandiser counter person, a eight dollar a hour passing the time until something else opens up person (you know what I mean) may or may not say anything or really care.
I, like NTX5467 consider myself a professional in my field.
Thirty eight years in various positions in several GM dealerships. Professionals,in whichever field they are in have to be compensated fairly or they will leave that field.
If I had a "union job" like it was alluded to by a earlier poster, I could be retired now, instead of working a average of ten hours a day for at least another five to ten years, the only retirement is Social Security and my 401K that the dealer "gave" me with such a low percentage match it was almost a joke. Two cents of his money to each dollar of mine. Not much for almost twenty years of service IMHO.
And our health and disability insurance, well they pay SOME of it, but the amount we pay, well last year about 5K was my share for health coverage alone. Puts a huge dent in the take home figure. Some times makes you wonder why you picked this business. But you get to a certain point in life, it's too hard to change careers and start over again unless you are forced to.
And for all this, the first time someone has a problem that they cannot get resolved at the mass-merchandisers, guess where they end up at. Yes, at our counter wanting us to figure out how to correct the problem. More times than not,we lose more time and money stepping into this, trying to figure out just what happened and how to get it corrected. Usually without even a thank you form the customer. Or the "great" support we get from the "corporation". For example, when the '97 Grand Prix's headlamp lenses would separate from the headlamp body and fall off. I actually had a phone center rep from GM TELL ME that I NEED to give the customer a discount because the car was out of warranty! Hmmm, I didn't design or build it, how's this my fault? AND who's pocket does this come out of?
I got into some hot water over this as subsequently I told EACH customer to file a Zone complaint for reimbursement for defective parts on a known problem. I still smile at that one! The most fun I ever had getting a b****out! Revenge was mine!
This is just my opinion, I hope not too negative of a opinion. But I have listened to dealer bashing for many years, some deserved, a lot not deserved.
Edited by GMPARTSMAN (05/11/08 08:36 PM)
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#509010 - 05/12/08 01:54 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: GMPARTSMAN]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 173
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Bottom line, they will not get any more of my business.
I might sound like I love independent garages, but they are the better of two evils. I come to you from the factory, and will be the first to say, our own dealerships will tear you a new A$$. They have NO love for our products, and are in business to turn profits for the franchise, using every means. They will not argue your case, and they don't care who pays, as long as it's someone else.
...38 years in GM dealership parts departments... I will admit AutoZone, Murray's, Pep Boys, et al are cheaper than we are. ...If I had a "union job" like it was alluded to by a earlier poster, I could be retired now, instead of working a average of ten hours a day for at least another five to ten years, the only retirement is Social Security and my 401K that the dealer "gave" me with such a low percentage match it was almost a joke. Two cents of his money to each dollar of mine.
... And for all this, the first time someone has a problem that they cannot get resolved at the mass-merchandisers, guess where they end up at. Yes, at our counter...
...how's this my fault? AND who's pocket does this come out of?
I told EACH customer to file a Zone complaint for reimbursement for defective parts on a known problem.
Does this make sense to ANYONE?: You make products, then other companies service and sell parts for them because you (the manufacturer) are not allowed to. That's crazy.
The Jap's don't like that setup, either. That's why they fix absolutely every little thing they can, before their cars get on that boat. It's not because their labor costs are lower, or because they believe Americans are lazy and stupid. Who knows the product better than the manufacturer? Nobody. They have a point. Consider the huge numbers, again. They want to keep dealership issues like these to a bare minimum, or elliminate them altogether.
I'm going to ruffle some feathers with this: I would LOVE to see GM (and Ford) open a few dealerships, using their own mechanics rotated from the assembly plants. I guarantee they would take much better care of their customers, at very fair prices. If GM (or Ford) chooses to ignore customer complaints, the UAW won't. We are all in this together. Why is it always a fight, just to get things done right?
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Moderator: BUICK RACER, R W Burgess, 24T42, Peter J.Heizmann, Steve Moskowitz, Brenda Shore, gagliaj
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"Shop" to me pictured a cabinet (hopefully) in a workshop inside your home or in a garage, a place where welding/grinding/etc. might occur. Thanks for clearing that up!
