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#508252 - 05/08/08 10:58 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: simplyconnected]
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SBRMD
Member
Registered: 03/03/00
Posts: 271
Loc: Mpls., MN USA
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NTX, I always appreciate your posts, finding them extremely illuminating, and I'm sure there are many honest people at dealerships, but......I too have had plenty of the other experiences at dealers, certainly more ofetn than at smaller shops. Professional liars is sometimes a very apt description.
One time, after the (GM) dealer stripped the threads on my oil pan drain plug, they (the writer) told me that the ignition key to my oil-less car was locked safely in the tech's tool box. Ten minutes later, I found my car pushed outside, unattended, with key in ignition and window open, still with no drain plug and no oil! And the stories go on. And that's just me!
Really, it's the relationship that counts. I have all my work done, where I can help it, by a great guy that I met when he was a Midas tech in about 1982. He's a manager of a Midas now, I have followed him all over town for >25 years, because he's HONEST. And, he's good. But honest rates before good in my book; most tech know how to actually fix the car.
Can't stand giving my car to tech X, especially at the dealer.
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#508307 - 05/08/08 03:01 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: SBRMD]
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HurstGN
Member
Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Just to add fuel to the fire, different dealer (North Star Chevrolet formerly in Carnegie PA, now in Moon Twp. PA) had my car for inspection. It was free because the car was purchased there. They said the rad needed replaced due to a leak. It was covered under warranty, so I said go ahead. That was a VERY COSTLY warranty part for me. The initial cost was $100 deductable, and the warranty covered the rest. The dealer did the work and I got the car back the day before a trip to Norwalk Ohio. A simple road trip to see the inaugural NHRA event at the track. Special tickets at over $300 each. We drive to Norwalk. Enjoy day 1. End of day one, I'm losing tranny fluid in the parking lot like I've never seen before. At least a quart in under 15 minutes time. I look under the hood, trany fluid everywhere, and it shooting out of the new rad. In the morning, I stop by a local Norwalk Dealer (Baumann Pontiac Cadillac GMC 4683 US Highway 250 N Norwalk, OH 44857 -- These guys are TOPS IN CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!) since this is a warranty part. The rad is not the problem. The other goofs cross-threaded the trans line into the new rad and tried to fix it by gunking it up with some white thread sealant. A bogus repair if I ever heard of one! So the guys at Baumann have to run to another dealer go get a replacement for the galled up fitting. Here goes 2 hours waiting, and it'll be at least 30 mins labor. After a long wait, the service manager comes out to tell me the fitting has been fixed. My cost for this repair? The cost of the fitting, dealer cost, nothing more. Baumann doesn't want to have people have a bad experience when they're in town for events. Thank You Baumann!! Like I said, these guys are tops in my book.
OK, so I've missed half a day of racing, but luckily it's early and it was more pit time I lost than anything else. So how does this get more expensive? Well, this all stemmed from a state inspection...and the wheels were removed to check the brakes. You'd think a dealer would know how to bolt wheels onto a car. These guys didn't. They didn't torque the wheels. Now the cost rises to replace 4 rotors, and 4 sets of brake pads. A $250 bill I hadn't planned on. All in all, a ton of aggrivation, lost time at the track on an expensive ticket, cost of a new fitting, and new pads and rotors all around. So my simple repair ended up costing me because of dealer incompetence. I'll never go back to North Star again.
Baumann Pontiac in Norwalk, I'll go there anytime. Customer service and satisfaction was at the top of their list. The tech diagnosed the problem pretty quickly; presented me the facts of what was done improperly; they used some gas and time to go get my part I needed (a dealer only fitting); and repaired the car with the goal in mind to get me to the track to continue to enjoy my vacation. They could have soaked me for this, they knew I was from out of town...but they didn't. I was treated with respect and they cared about my experience, not the bottom line $. Now these guys are good! If you're in the area, stop in and see them. A nice group of people.
_________________________
Visit the Pittsburgh Tri-Shields from your PC Dan McCann BCA #34734 October 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines Feature Car - 1982 Turbocharged Grand National
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#508382 - 05/08/08 09:53 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 64BuickCat]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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In fairness, dealers are NOT obligated to participate in 'A-Plan' (Ford employee discounts) because the dealer is a separate company, a franchise, even though Ford cuts them a separate check to cover their commission. Dealers may sell a car for whatever they can get, sometimes over sticker. GM dealerships probably have the same agreement.
For the dealer, selling another unit, adds to his monthly quota numbers. The more new cars he sells each month, the cheaper they become, from Ford Motor. So, why not sell a few 'A-plan' cars?
'A-Plan' is 3% below dealer cost. Dealers jealously watch the plan like a hawk. If an employee tries to sneak one to his buddy, the FIRST one to turn his A$$ in, is the salesman. Penalty from Ford is, pay back the discount, add taxes, and the employee is kicked off the plan.
All our plants have 'A-Plan' books, and employees know exactly how much a car costs before we get to the dealership. Price is NOT negotiable, and strictly enforced. I have shown my birth certificate, along with my sister's, to get her a new Ford, (just to prove we are related). The dealer may NOT 'throw-in' any extras (like mats), as that is a violation of the plan.
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#508398 - 05/08/08 11:24 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: simplyconnected]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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I, too, know that some dealers (just as private shops) can be good or bad. Finding the good ones sometimes takes a little while, unfortunately. I've seen some "horror stories" over the years and know they can and do happen . . . which we tried to fix correctly and make things as right as we could in the process--even using "goodwill" to help buy-down the cost to the customer. When I was on the front parts counter, when I'd pick up the phone and it was a customer (I consider "a customer" to be ANYBODY that has a GM vehicle, as it is a GM store, whether we sold it or not!) who had had a bad experience at another dealership or whatever, everything else around me stopped as I dealt with that customer's questions and concerns and possibly explained how the prior situation happened and what it would take to fix it.
If it had to do with a vehicle problem, I'd ask who the salesperson was and put them back together (in some cases, they'd shopped us and bought the vehicle elsewhere) to get things figured out. In some cases, they'd ended up with a vehicle which did not have the correct equipment to do what they were using it for (as in a really steep, although "standard", highway-gear rear axle ratio rather than something "optional" with a ratio just low enough to keep the trans from kicking in and out of OD just driving down the highway), which indicated that the dealership's operative who ordered vehicles might be clueless of the problems they were creating (including whether the customer would buy another vehicle of the same brand again!).
As for the "Option 1" or whatever factory employee pricing, some dealers just don't want to deal with that stuff. It's really pretty painless for them and they still make money, but some put more emphasis on higher profit margins than getting vehicles one the road. Sometimes, the factory or factory-related people will not let the salesperson know of their status until they are ready to do the paperwork, which can cause problems in that area. In this area, things work best when everybody knows up front that it will be a factory employee (or similar "option") sale rather than a normal consumer sale. As we are in the same metro area as the Arlington, TX assmebly plant, we welcome that business for new vehicle sales.
On the parts side of things, some of these people have come in and wanted parts lists for things and wanted us to spend the time to look everything up so they could go order it direct. In reality, they have that capability through their plant connections and don't need us to do that at all. Or they want (even expect) us to sell them the parts for factory cost (we'll make them a wholesale price or possibly dealership employee price deal, but we have to cover costs on our side of things with no "Option" deal on the parts side of things as there is on the new vehicle purchase side of things). We'll work with them as well as we can, but there are lots of stories of GM plant people and their expectations at the regional GM dealership parts departments. Some of the plant employees are great to deal with and would rather deal with somebody they can see and talk to rather than somebody at the other end of a phone and others can be otherwise.
As with ANY transaction, it needs to be mutually beneficial for the customer and seller, with the seller bending a little on the price side of things for a good customer who also becomes a repeat customer and friend.
It's great that Baumann took ownership of the prior dealership's indiscretions and fixed them and tried to make things as right as they could. That is a great orientation--period! Unfortunately, there can be flaky techs at some dealerships (and resultant poor supervision of new employees) just as there can be at private shops. A satisfied customer might not tell as many people of their good experience as a dissatisfied customer might of their "bad" experience, but a little bit of "over and above" customer service (as Baumann did) is some of the best advertising that any dealership can invest in--hands down.
An even better deal would have been if Baumann's service manager had called the other dealership's owner and told them of the poor experience/repair which they had to fix and how it inconvenienced the vehcile's owner. A little peer pressure might have been appropriate, plus documenting it for the GM Service Rep to see.
To me, the local franchise dealership is the local/regional "rep" of the manufacturer. The customer has generally higher expectations of the work the dealership can perform (facilities, tools, etc.) and the knowledge base of the employees there (as compared to an outside shop which works on "everything"). Unfortunately, many dealership employees don't see that relationship OR understand the importance therein. They don't see the fortunes of the franchiser as hanging in the balance upon the quality of work they perform or activities they might engage in in addressing the customer's needs/concerns. A bad experience can send the customer to another dealership AND another brand of vehicle in a heartbeat--IF so motivated--whether the sub-optimal experience was in the parts, sales, or service areas of the dealership. If the customer later realizes that what they received was better service from the dealer they got mad at, after experiencing what another dealership's operatives didn't do for them, then they realize they were better taken care of than they originally suspected (as they return to the first dealership with a better understanding of some things)
Therefore, what happens at the dealership level of things TODAY can pay dividends (or otherwise) in the financial futures of the franchisers long after the dealership employee has spent the money they might have made on a particular customer transaction. Unfortunately, by my own observations, the vehicle dealership/repair industry has a high tolerance for mediocrity. Some will become good enough to reach levels of higher achievement but not take the extra steps to rise above that level--"comfortable mediocrity", if you will--"good enough" to be recognized as "good", but not as good as they could be.
I hope EVERYBODY has a great weekend!
NTX5467
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#508410 - 05/09/08 01:05 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: NTX5467]
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'Reatta1'
Member
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 2021
Loc: Oregon
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Ok gents. here is the RO for my Park Avenue. You can look it over and decide for yourselves whether I got a "fair' deal. Personally I think I was overcharged a bit. I've been trying to attach a scanned copy but it won't attach so I'm just going to type it in. I will bold the item that I know I got ripped on.
labor and parts
J# 1 07cvz fuel system HOURS: 2.50 TECH(S): 742 215.00
C/S that vehicle has had bad fuel dispersed into vehicle
and feels there is water in the fuel.
Need to drain and refill tank, flush lines,replace
fuel filter and flush injectors.
Drain and flushed complete fuel system, replaced fuel
filter and flushed injectors.
Parts---qty--fp-number-----description----unit price
Job#1 1 251212293 fuel filter 3.890 18.69 18.69
Job#1 total parts 18.69
Job#1 total labor & parts 233.69
---------------------------------------------------------
J# 2+01CVZA fuel injector service
hours: 1:00 tech(s):742
68.82
service fuel injectors
maintenance cleaning
presurize cleaning of fuel injectors
Parts---qty--fp-number------description----unit price
Job#2 1 9300 Z-CLEAN 40.24 40.24
Job#2 total parts 40.24
Job#2 total labor & parts 109.06
--------------------------------------------------------
G.O.G. & supplies
Job#1 5.1 pacific pride gas/di @ 4.500 /unit 22.95 total - gog 22.95
misc----code----description----------control no-------
Job#A hw shop supplies 5.34
Job#1 2 adjusted discount )parts) -9.11
total misc. -3.77
estimate-----------------------------------------------
customer hereby acknowledges recieving
original estimate of $200.00 (+tax)
approved revised estimate (#1) of 350.00 (+tax)
on 05/05/08 at 12:03 pm]
by Jim & Carole Stagl comments customer approved
repairs
approved revised estimate (#2) of $361.93 (+tax)
on 05/05/08 at 2:40 pm
by Jim & Carole Stagl comments
comments------------------------------------------------
tow company left lights on battery is drained
There is an additiona page with a recap of the charges and listing the total of $361.93 Now mind you, they buy that gas from Pacific Pride, a gas wholesaler to businesses, at a disacounted price from what the general public pays at the gas station, which on that day was $3.599 a gallon. The last I knew the discount was in the nieghborhood of 20%, which would make their cost under 3 bucks. In my book, that is a RIP OFF!!!!
_________________________
'There is no vaccine against stupidity'
I was always taught to respect my elders but, it keeps getting harder to find one
01 Park Avenue
93 Regal coupe
88 Reatta (Black Beauty)
66 LeSabre convert.
89 3/4 ton Silverado
BCA # 39316
Reatta Div. # 644
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#508414 - 05/09/08 02:49 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: NTX5467]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Don't we all cherish our classic cars? How about the guys who do a total restoration, doesn't that car represent an intimate part of them? I know assemblers who put a 'special mark' in an obscure place, so they can tell it is a car they proudly worked on.... As we are in the same metro area as the Arlington, TX assmebly plant, we welcome that business for new vehicle sales.
...Or they want (even expect) us to sell them the parts for factory cost (we'll make them a wholesale price or possibly dealership employee price deal...
...Some of the plant employees are great to deal with...
116,682 Chevrolet Tahoe's,
45,996 Cadillac Escalade's,
33,145 GMC Yukon's,
19,144 Cadillac Escalade ESV's,
9,924 GMC Yukon XL's, and
8,601 Chevrolet Suburban's.
That works out to 101.5 vehicles per employee. Sound easy? That's two per week. (The numbers, for one year, are hard to comprehend, even for a dealership.) GM employees have a deep-seated love for the cars they proudly build, and their highest goal is to purchase one they just built.
Who understands these vehicles better than these assemblers? They get MAD when they go to a GM dealership, and the service department is filled with mechanics and techs that just got hired from the Chrysler or Toyota dealership down the road. The Sales Dept., is profoundly worse.
... To me, the local franchise dealership is the local/regional "rep" of the manufacturer. The customer has generally higher expectations of the work the dealership can perform (facilities, tools, etc.) and the knowledge base of the employees there (as compared to an outside shop which works on "everything").
Less than five percent of any workforce's performance is 'outstanding.' Mechanics and tech's are no exception. A dealership is an excellent place for 'the cream-of-the-crop' to learn the business, get good at it, and strike-out on their own. THIS is where many independent garages and Speed Shops come from. With training from the 'big three,' they specialize, cutting through all the BS, getting paid very well, and they have very satisfied customers. Usually, they are swamped with work. Bottom line, understand the relationship owners have with their car rather than treating it like a 'unit' or just a number hanging on the mirror tag. An honest, more-than-fair, dealership can't help but flurish, because word-of-mouth spreads very fast, especially with these numbers.
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#508416 - 05/09/08 04:18 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 'Reatta1']
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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labor and parts
Job#1 07cvz--fuel system HOURS: 2.50------------ 215.00
Drain and flushed complete fuel system, replaced fuel
filter and flushed injectors.
Parts---qty--fp-number-----description----unit price
Job#1----1---251212293---fuel filter 3.890---------- 18.69
Job#1 --------------------------total labor & parts--- 233.69
-------------------------------------------------------
Job#2 +01CVZA fuel injector service
---hours: 1:00------------------------------------------- 68.82
---service fuel injectors, maintenance cleaning,
---presurize cleaning of fuel injectors
Parts---qty--fp-number------description----unit price
Job#2--- 1--- 9300------------ Z-CLEAN--------------- 40.24
Job#2-------------------------- total labor & parts--- 109.06
-------------------------------------------------------
G.O.G. & supplies
Job#1 5.1 pacific pride gas/di @ 4.500 /unit 22.95 total - gog 22.95
misc----code----description----------control no-------
Job#A---- hw---- shop supplies-------------------------- 5.34
Job#1---- 2----- adjusted discount )parts)------------ -9.11
-----------------------------------------total misc.------- -3.77
comments------------------------------------------------
tow company left lights on battery is drained!!
Don't be afraid to use fresh gas with 10% ethynol. It pulls water out of your tank, and cleans injectors. It may not run the best, but after you refill, your engine will really show a big difference. I do a tank, twice each year because of my Detroit winters. I also use gasohol 10% in my generator and lawn mower. They are both so low compression ratio, you can't tell any difference. Instead of buying sta-bil, I cycle my gas. Before it gets nine months old, I empty my cans into my driver, and refill at the pump, keeping it fresh. - Dave Dare
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#508548 - 05/09/08 05:14 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 'Reatta1']
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Thriller
Member
Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 2205
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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5 gallons at possibly $1.50 / gallon profit? $7.50...I'd suggest there are other things to get a lot more concerned over. Unless the dealer also has fuel storage tanks, they had to transport the fuel to your car somehow, right? In the grand scheme of things, it's on the order of 2% of your repair bill extra for the fuel.
Considering what we've heard over the years about how much more expensive it it just to buy the parts that would be required to constitute a car, without consideration for labour to put it together, than to purchase that same car new, that shows the inflated prices for the parts. If simplyconnected is right about the price of the fuel filter, I'd get more excited about that.
You could also consider yourself lucky...in two separate events of foolishness, I've damaged my truck's bumper and the plastic beneath it...that's being repaired today and will cost me about $1400.
_________________________
Derek Thille BCA #39416, CBC, MBCC #1984 66 Wildcat Custom Coupe - "Ellie" / 62 Special Convertible / 61 Invicta Convertible / 56 Special 4-door Sedan / 52 Roadmaster 4-door / 41 Special 41SE Sedan / 29 McLaughlin Buick Model 51 2006 Buick Rainier - "Ruby" / 2005 GMC Sierra K2500 - "Max" (the hauler) Thriller's Buick Page
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#508569 - 05/09/08 07:00 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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BUICK RACER
Member
Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 2307
Loc: Flint, MI, USA
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This dealer stuff, just burns me up! I hate going to the dealer. One of the biggest problems nowadays is there is virtually no real warranty work available, because of the increased quality across the board, and when there is it's not pretty.
In addition, the only experience the customer has with the company that made their vehicle is the dealership, and they have no real connection or responsility for representing the corporation that built it! Hence, the attitude of the customer to buy something else next, perhaps an import, but they have the same problems.
As far as, the older cars out of warranty, that is the only place the dealer can make any money anymore, so the slap it on the little old lady/man/young person that just wants their car fixed so they can go to work or whatever, and don't know to ask the questions, Like "SHOW ME WHAT IS WRONG" or give me my replaced parts so they can actually see the part was replaced by law, they just pay the bill.
In most cases, these folks, are somewhat ok, because their car is fixed, and it was cheaper than buying a new one, but did they get ripped off and didn't know, it all about asking questions, and that's free!
My Mom, put way too much $$ last year into her '95 Riviera with just around 80K, she loves the car, Creampuff, they, the "Chevy" dealler she takes it to, cause the local Buick dealer has been shizter for years, said it wouldn't pass NY inspection without a rack and pinion replacement, over $500, did she get her old parts, no, does the car still have a problem, I think so. She had a nail in the right rear tire at Thanksgiving last year, when we check it when we got home it had 9 Lbs, in it, Alica(my sister) and I put some air in it on Monday, on Wednesday before turkey day, we were going out to pick up the rib roast for dinner on Thanksgiving at 3PM. I backed the car out of the garage before we left, I said I wanted to look at that tire, and spotted the nail, we took it right to the tire store and they ended up selling her 2 new tires, we kept the good one, when I said something about the dealer just down the road, the guys in the tire store just rolled their eyes.
She needs to find an independent good mechanic to work on this car in the future, but all I can tell her is get your old parts for 2 reasons, one I know alot of folks with these cars, and if I can help them before they have a problem would be nice to do that, and so she knows they did the work she paid for!
Here's the worse part, she is afraid to drive the car to FLint in July, because of all this, and doesn't help that premium is over $4, but it still will get close to 30MPG, so it's not that.
My latest dealership issue is with a body shop, my current company car is a 2008 Sierra Crew Cab, 4x4 2500HD, it was hit in the right front bumper by a 2008 Cadillac CTS, also a GM Company Car, by the right front bumper in the GM parking lot, $907 for the truck, the CTS, don't know, new bumper for the truck and paint the fascia on the bumper, this happened on April 30th, I took the truck in on May 5, it's still not fixed. Probably ready, Monday, in the meantime, I'm driving a Colbalt 4 door sport, from the pool car fleet, I did get it to squeal the tires today, enough rant.
_________________________
Roberta
BCA #16798
BCA Board of Director,1997-2003
BCA WEBMASTER
'56 Special(parts car!),'68 GS350,4-sp '68 GS400 Convertible,4-sp,'66 Wildcats,'70 GSX Stage 1,'70 Skylark Racecar,'73 GS455,'86 Grand National
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