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#507687 - 05/05/08 10:52 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs
[Re: Barney Eaton]
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Bill_Boro
New Member
Registered: 03/09/08
Posts: 7
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If you replace the pump more than once due to rust I would look into at least using a gas tank sealer if you don't buy a new tank before replacing the pump again. Eastwood sells a sealer does and one have any experiance with it or similar product?
_________________________
89 Reatta
82 TransAm
47 Frazer
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#507699 - 05/05/08 11:32 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs
[Re: Barney Eaton]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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Reatta1, with all due respect, it seems you've already made up your mind against the dealership's repair shop, so asking for opinions seems like you're looking for support in your orientations . . . with all due respect.
What the service advisor quoted you was the most common reason for your vehicle's doing what it did. It's only an ESTIMATE as things CAN change when the tech gets the vehicle into the stall (whether at a dealership OR an independent shop) and sees what's really going on. A good tech will FIRST check the fuel pressure at the engine as this will tell if the pump is good or weak or otherwise. It takes a minimum pressure for the injectors to fire, like 55psi or more. Until that pressure is reached, it's just "extended crank time" and no more. So, rather than getting all excited and running aroung trying to see if you're about to be screwed, you might calm down a little and find out what the real problem might be.
You mention the high checkout fee, but that usually is the same as 1 labor hour at normal shop rates. Also consider that the technician does not get all of that money for themselves as it also goes to pay overhead items for the service department and for the employees to be there.
As for union shops, they are NOT everywhere in the USA. Some areas have more than others, but rest assured that they are NOT everywhere.
Sometimes, you might score a "goodwill" adjustment in labor charges, but with a vehicle as old as yours is, I don't see that happening very readily. Being nice helps, but I see no reason for that to happen in this particular situation as you didn't just (I suspect) have work done at the dealership which might have caused displeasure with you which the dealership people might be motivated to "make amends" in reducing any of the parts or labor prices on this particular repair.
As for bringing your own parts, that can get a little tricky. Key thing is that if the dealership gets the parts (as in genuine ACDelco), many of these parts carry a Lifetime Gurarantee with them. If you buy them over the counter in the parts department, the guarantee only covers the price of the part, but if it's installed at the dealership, then parts AND labor are covered. Of course, you've got to keep the documentation for any future claims in this area. Something to think about!
If you get the part from another source, and it might not be correct, then it will be YOU who'll have to contact whatever vendor to get the correct part. In the mean time, your vehicle will be pushed out of the shop until the correct part arrives. Why should a technician (union or otherwise) tie-up a stall just so you can save a little money on a parts price? In this scenario, all the dealership service department is liable for is correctly installing the part. If it fails in the stated warranty period, then any labor charges are on your side of the deal, which you might have to wait to receive reimbursement from the people you bought the part from if labor is part of their guarantee. Just some things to consider -- the dynamics of the situation.
As Dave mentioned, Denso is a worldwide supplier of many vehicle parts (other than just spark plugs). They might build the fuel pumps for ACDelco and others, but anything in the ACDelco/GM boxes will have to meet the specs and performance criteria of GM engineers to be in that box. The other sellers of the Denso pumps in other brand packaging may or may not meet the same GM specs, but will meet the specs (performance AND materials) of the company whose name is on the box for the particular pump. Same with oil filters built by Champion Labs for many OEM and aftermarket oil filter brands--just because it all comes from the same factory doesn't mean they are all of the same quality and performance specs (although they can be, but sometimes not).
As a point of reference, several years ago when we did extended hours to Midnight, it was at the time in the lives of many Chevy Suburbans when they hit the 65-70K mile range. If they had not had the fuel filter changed very often, they got towed-in for a "No Start" condition. We normally quoted a new pump, strainer, and inline fuel filter (the most common parts needed for the repair, until the whole scenario repeated itself a few times). Parts were about $150.00 which made the repair come to about $400.00.
When the tech would get the tank removed (sometimes taking special tools to get the fuel lines loose from the sending unit) and the sending unit removed to change the pump, they'd discover the need for a new sending unit too (due to the pump straining against the clogged/clogging fuel filter and causing issues with the wiring on the sending unit itself (this was on the systems "pre-module" where the pump could be changed separately). Price of the sending unit sent the price of the repair to about $800.00 total.
As stated, the first thing our techs did was to put a gauge on the fuel rail to check the pump's pressure. At that point, usually the pump would barely run. The filter, when removed, was clogged so much that you couldn't blow through it. In the case of "extended crank time", the fuel pressure would slowly build until it hit the 55psi mark and then the engine would start and run mostly normal, but a little sluggish.
Where you take the vehicle is of your determination--period. But there are different labor rates for GM Warranty time and "aftermarket" Chilton/Motor time (which can be about 20% more than GM Warranty Time). Therefore, the private shop with the lower hourly rate might end up costing more if the GM dealer is using warranty time rather than otherwise. Also, if you have a problem with the dealership repair, you have a little more leverage if things don't go right. If it's a private shop, they can request you go somewhere else and close the door in your face (if so motivated) . . . although many might not do that unless pushed.
I do concur with Matt that a good private repair shop with quality technicians is a GREAT thing to find. BUT you'll have to build a raport with them over time and patronization, just as with any other trusting business or friendly relationship. And the same thing CAN happen at the vehicle dealership level too.
Everybody's in business to make a profit. Before talking "rip-off" perhaps a little "What would I do if I was the one in business rather than a customer" consideration might need to be considered, with all due respect.
I would recommend that you let the dealership techs look at the vehicle to see what the real problem might end up being. If the updated estimate is more than you desire, you can pay the labor to put things back together and then have then push it out the door for the tow truck to pickup and take to where ever you desire. End result, though, is that you might save a little on the part, but the additional fees for teardown and inspection (NOT just the checkout fee) and tow truck service might not save ANYTHING in the long run. Nor would it make you any friends at the dealership (or where ever the same thing might happen), which can negate any possibility of "goodwill".
Dealership employees need to eat and pay bills and buy their kids clothes just as regular people do. Nobody really likes to cut their price just to please a customer who's already received an estimate of what the repair might cost as many (or most) are paid on a percentage of gross profit on the particular transaction (parts for their parts part of things, service for their side of things). Some might work with customers more than others, but it's at the option of those involved (i.e., parts operatives, service tech, service advisor).
IF you got some "bad gas", which is perceived to have caused the no-start problem, unless it's mostly diluted, it doesn't take much to get a fuel sample to verify such, especially if pump pressure is in specs. Bad gas, by itself, will not generally cause pump failure. If the fuel is contaminated, then the tank will need to be emptied and probably inspected for rust, algae formation, or sediment and cleaned somehow so that the pump will not fail again from the residual stuff in the tank. And that will cost extra, over and above the normal remove/replace tank and fuel pump unit.
Your car, your money, your choice of repair shops . . . but just be aware of the many side issues involved and various dynamics of the situation before making the final decision. I've mentioned some of these areas to consider as have others.
For the record, if a service advisor called to ask if there was anything I could do on a parts price to help a customer, I usually did reduce the price as much as I felt comfortable with, but it let us make sufficient profit and also help please the customer . . . but if WE did an adjustment, the same was expected of the service operatives. When customers or extended warranty companies supplied their own parts, it could a set-up for us having to deal with a mad customer later on (for several reasons NOT related to anything WE did wrong--whether it be a time delay in receiving the part, hopefully correct, or a failure later on due to the quality of the supplied part, new or used).
And yes, I did get paid on commission, but that didn't mean I "robbed" anybody--period. To me, helping take care of customers (which they hopefully appreciated, or came to) and possibly cutting the price a little was considered to be an investment in building the customer base rather than getting a "one-time" big profit that might result in a customer going somewhere else next time. But I didn't "give anything away" as that would not pay my bills (or the dealership's either)--some profit had to be made somewhere. And we did follow GM's recommended pricing on our parts to customers.
Respectfully,
NTX5467
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#507700 - 05/05/08 11:42 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Got some bad gas... advisor said the fuel pump is gone... then injector service. What do you all think?
Bad gas doesn't cause a fuel pump to go bad. There is a fine-mesh screen in front of the pump inlet. If particles got past that mesh, which I doubt, it could destroy the pump. Next, you have a fuel filter to protect your injectors.
I don't know who did the troubleshooting, but I will bet it wasn't the Service Advisor. Those guys are usually NOT mechanics, and they don't want you to talk with one, either. Their job is to 'break the shell-shock gently.' They are not your friend.
Denso is one of the largest suppliers to automotive industry, and they happen to be the world's largest supplier of fuel pumps (OEM & aftermarket) and several other components. Frankly it wouldn't suprise me at all if they made pumps for Edelbrock. In fact I'd bet it's a certainty that they make at least one of the pumps on your list.
I have never seen anyone drop an axle to pull a fuel tank. It could be, they found it easier to drop the axle away from the shocks, so they wouldn't have to drop the tank. (That's a big difference.) Some sending units mount on top (like the Mustang) and others mount on the front. If the tank is less than 1/4 full, you could just pull the pump with the tank in place.
I am anxious to hear what an independent mechanic says. I will LMAO if he says the electrical connector was simply corroded. - Dave Dare
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#507715 - 05/06/08 01:28 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: simplyconnected]
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'Reatta1'
Member
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 2021
Loc: Oregon
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OK gents, here is the punch line. Went in this morning to talk to the service manager. He got the tech that wrote the estimate to talk to me. The tech had never diagnosed the car, just wrote an estimate using the info the service manager gave him. He was working under the assumption that the car had been sitting unused for a couple years and the gas had gone bad and got varnished and when it was started had blown the pump. Once that misunderstanding was cleared up, they agreed to do another estimate,to wit, drain tank, replace fuel filter, injector service and 5 gallons new gas, $361 and change. I told them do it. They took out roughly 5 gallons, 3/4 of which was water. All said and done, car runs perfectly, maybe even better after injector service. All parties satisfied. I did tell him what I could buy the pump for from GM Parts Direct and he said he couldn't even buy it at that price from his source. Told him he should be shopping around. Anyway, all's well that ends well.
_________________________
'There is no vaccine against stupidity'
I was always taught to respect my elders but, it keeps getting harder to find one
01 Park Avenue
93 Regal coupe
88 Reatta (Black Beauty)
66 LeSabre convert.
89 3/4 ton Silverado
BCA # 39316
Reatta Div. # 644
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#507754 - 05/06/08 10:03 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 1DandyDaves]
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Reatta Man
Member
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 1521
Loc: San Antonio, TX USA
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Reatta1,
Glad to hear your car is back on the road. Further proof that, with the right maintenance, most Buicks could (and should) last far, far longer than most of them are used before they meet the crusher.
As for the comments about buying OEM parts, NTX alluded to what I was talking about, but I want to expand it a little more for the benefit of the forum users. If you choose to ignore or disagree, that is your choice.
I've talked to several independent shops, including one of the fleet managers for a local fleet of police cars running Crown Vics almost exclusively.
These guys see patterns occur at very predictable time and mileage intervals, and they have lived through trying to save themselves or their customers a few bucks on cheaper parts.
The bottom line continues to be that cheaper fuel pumps or fuel pump assemblies containing the strainer and sending unit from non-OEM suppliers are CONSISTENTLY not lasting as long as OEM units. Denso, Borg or other companies may be making OEM parts, but as NTX said, that does NOT mean their retail-store version is made to the same specs as they would make a part for GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc.
Another point to keep in mind is that replacing fuel filters will make your fuel pump live longer, along with NOT running your tank down to nearly empty on a regular basis.
I hope this will save someone from having to replace a cheap pump a second time after 6-9 months. This is NOT an easy, quick or safe job. If I can avoid having to do this a second time by spending a little more money on an OEM pump, it is money well spent.
Joe
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#507770 - 05/06/08 11:09 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Reatta Man]
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Matt Harwood
Member
Registered: 10/09/01
Posts: 1616
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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Glad to hear you're back on the road. It really sucks that they were just guessing about the repair and didn't even do any actual diagnostic work (which they would have charged you an hour's worth of time for had you taken the car elsewhere  ).
Had you not questioned the price and asked for clarification, and just went ahead and let them fix it, would they have socked you with the $1000 bill anyway? You'd be none the wiser, right? My guess is that they would have taken your money and slept well that night.
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#507791 - 05/06/08 01:13 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: NTX5467]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Well said, Matt. I want to thank Riatta1 for braving this thread. I am glad that your car is running again. This topic brought out many problems with our system of repairing good American cars. Some answers revealed things happening behind the scenes that you never realized, and some answers revealed people's perception of what they think is going on.
I believe Riatta1 spent $361 to remove fuel/water and change the filter, but I am still not convinced his old pump is bad. (Water does not cause a pump to go bad.) I KNOW there was nothing wrong with his injectors. SAVE YOUR PARTS, Riatta1!
Dealers have only one agenda, THEIR OWN. They lie like dogs and expect good people to believe them. Well, of course you believe, it's the DEALERSHIP. GM's name and symbols are all over his building, and you are at a disadvantage because your GM car is down.
Sure dealerships have bills to pay, don't we all. But why should they sabotage the good relationship between the OEM and the customer? If Reatta1 was a little old lady, her only choice would be to trust the dealership and give up a grand. And, that's why my cousin PAID the Pontiac dealer in Kalamazoo his Grand. GM employee for 40 years? They couldn't care less. He never even got kissed.
That's precisely why people go elsewhere for a new car, they hate to deal with an idiot that CHARGES ONE HOUR to GUESS. Ok, that's not robbery, it is extortion. Any independent mechanic would not have charged for that.
Can you see the importance of speaking with the mechanic, directly? Dealerships don't want you speaking with their mechanics. Instead they use a professional liar to speak between you AND the mechanic. Both you and the mechanic, were given different stories. Consquently, they never even tried to troubleshoot, but you believed they did. A GRAND, please.
By the way Riatta1, how long is the warranty period? If you don't know, would you call them and answer this, please?
Key thing is that if the dealership gets the parts (as in genuine ACDelco), many of these parts carry a Lifetime Gurarantee with them. If you buy them over the counter in the parts department, the guarantee only covers the price of the part, but if it's installed at the dealership, then parts AND labor are covered.
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#507798 - 05/06/08 01:32 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Matt Harwood]
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HurstGN
Member
Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 198
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Recent experience I had. On a 2000 Boneville SSEi, I had the dealer diagnose a bad oil pressure sender (not replace), and replace the lower intake manifold gasket. Yup, same one that's in dispute by a class action suit right now, but I'm not included...al supercharged engines don't qualify even though we use the SAME gasket. Anywho....I get the job done and get the car back, only to find several problems.
First, I pay $75 to diagnose the bad switch and now it reads 0 PSI on the oil pressure. It read 120 PSI when I took it in. Dealer says they reset something in the computer and that's how it reads now. I also get a check engine light within one day of leaving the dealer for a TPS problem. I look myself to see what I can find as they can't take the car back in for a week. I find the oil pressure sending unit was left disconnected, and the socket was almost destroyed by the moving drivetrain parts. $75 so I could crawl underneath and plug the sensor back in to get my 120 PSI reading back. I'm pissed at this.
Second, I pay for the intake manifold, and now have a TPS code. Looking under the engine cover I find several things. 1 - Fuel rail service port cap is missing. Thanks for stealing my cap guys. 2 - A vacuum line that goes to the fuel pressure regulator is OFF and causing the TPS code in the car. Thanks for making me complete the reassembly of the job I paid for. 3 - A vacuum line (custom bent line, dealer only part) off the throttle body is broken and fixed by wrapping with electrical tape. WTF?!? C'mon, this line HAD to be removed to do the repair, so I know they saw it. It wasn't fixed?!? I take the car back in a week later and tell them how I reconnected a sensor, am missing a cap, fixed a disconnected vacuum line, and show them the sh!t repair of the TB vacuum line. The service manager tells me he'll discuss it with the other service manager that handled the job in the first place and the other guy will call me. Meanwhile a tech looks at the line covered in tape and asks "Is it causing a vacuum leak?" I said no, but it was a shoddy repair. Even if they didn't break it, and it was in that condition when it went in, at a minimum i should have been notified of the bad previous repair. The tech said well, if it's not leaking, then it's OK. WHAT?!? C'mon now....what kinda crap is this? Oh, the phone call to discuss my issues....they never called.
Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA.
People who know me know I can work on a car, but with my schedule, a lower intake manifold gasket is just too much of a job to get done myself. I trusted the dealer. I got hosed. No matter who you are, buyer beware. Especially if you don't have a personal relationship with the repair facility.
_________________________
Visit the Pittsburgh Tri-Shields from your PC Dan McCann BCA #34734 October 2007 Hemmings Muscle Machines Feature Car - 1982 Turbocharged Grand National
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#507869 - 05/06/08 07:20 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: 'Reatta1']
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Bhigdog
Member
Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 1466
Loc: Eastern PA
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I'm told that using a chamois, a real one, in a funnel as a filter will hold back the water/crud but let the gas through. This is standard procedure for refueling aircraft from drums in some third world areas but I've never had to do it myself.......Bob
Edited by Bhigdog (05/06/08 07:21 PM)
_________________________
Bob Beck
39 Chev PU
69 big block Corvette
55 Buick 66C
57 Buick 46C
55 Olds S-88
56 Chrysler St. Regis
AACA, BCA, WPC, USHGA
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#507900 - 05/06/08 09:45 PM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Bhigdog]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Throw that gas to hell away, as fast as you can. If it has any ethynol, THAT is saturated with water, and all the good stuff evaporated long ago leaving a concentration of varnish. Using that gas already cost you big bucks, so cut your loses.
I still stand by; your filter keept ALL the crud out of your injectors. It will let water through, but not particles. Don't forget, there is a screen on the inlet of your pump, too. In a few months, change your fuel filter again.
Now that we know the story, what all did the dealership actually do with your tank? Did they drop it and wash it out properly?
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#508192 - 05/08/08 01:34 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: simplyconnected]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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Reatta1, I'm very glad you got things taken care of. As always, it NEVER hurts to ask questions and clarify some things which might have gotten blurred as the communications pass from one person to another. I think you did very well and I'm glad all is now well with the car.
Simplyconnected, I take great offense at your comments that all dealers are crooks and cheats and liars (or similar). From my experiences, I KNOW that is NOT a universal truth. In the case of the estimate to fix Reatta1's car, they were working from somewhat incorrect information and his asking for a clarification got things back on the right track. Just because one of your associatates had a flaky experience at a Pontiac store should NOT be a condemnation of all similar dealerships for any reason!
If ANYBODY has any concerns about poor dealership service (warranty or otherwise), there should be a GM Customer Service phone number in the back of the owner's manual or on the http://www.GM.com website. Also, if you feel the service experience at the dealership was great, you can probably use the same contact channels to tell GM what a great experience you had at the dealership--works both ways.
As Reatta Man mentioned, many dealership and fleet operator service operatives see the patterns of vehicles needing certain repairs at certain general mileage intervals which the individual customer does not see or possibly have any knowledge of. Therefore, they use this accumulated knowledge and observations to make service recommendations or write repair estimates for customers. Of course, sometimes, it works to their disadvantage BUT I would suspect that when the estimate is found to be wrong (by the tech once they get things torn down), they'll get with the service advisor and update them on the new findings and how to proceed (as the service advisor should be bird-dogging all of the repair orders they generate).
Again, I'm glad things worked out well for you, Reatta1!
NTX5467
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#508193 - 05/08/08 05:31 AM
Re: Dealer rip offs (update)
[Re: Matt Harwood]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 174
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Simplyconnected, I take great offense at your comments that all dealers are crooks and cheats and liars (or similar). From my experiences... Yea, I got shafted and this dealer is lower than snail slime when it comes to customer satisfaction in my book. If anyone wants to know who it is, it's Bowser Pontiac in Pleasant Hills PA.
My paychecks say, "Ford Motor Company" on them. How does it strike you when friends and relatives tell you about how they got fleeced by a dealer? The situation is so bad, they all get together, asking where the best dealership is. Many times, NOBODY KNOWS. That's sad!
Bring your car into a dealership for service in Chicago or Boston. They don't bat an eye, asking for two-Grand for things like TPS or Mass Air Sensor, etc, service. They KNOW customers aren't going to diagnose/repair their own car. As I said, it's extortion. My sister paid $5-grand for her Lincoln tranny to be rebuilt in Naperville, IL. But wait a minute, the dealer sent it OUT, and tacked their percentage on the job. I can get a brand new one for $2,500 in Detroit. Rebuild jobs in Detroit are $1,500, with a year guarantee. I picked up a brand-new Automatic OverDrive from a guy in Cleveland for $400! The Internet, this forum, and eBay put the whammy on a lot of dealership business, creating more home repairs and online parts purchases. May God help little old ladies, as they drive into the service department, because THEY are dealership's bread-and-butter.
If you work at a dealership, you know you have disadvantaged and captive customers; many times they have nowhere else to go. What do you charge? ...I did get paid on commission... I didn't "give anything away"... And we did follow GM's recommended pricing on our parts to customers.
A thousand bucks for a fuel pump......Had you not questioned the price and asked for clarification, and just went ahead and let them fix it, would they have socked you with the $1000 bill anyway? You'd be none the wiser, right? My guess is that they would have taken your money and slept well that night.
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