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#503703 - 04/20/08 12:24 PM
Seatbelt Advice Needed
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galenmd
Member
Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 28
Loc: California
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I would like a little advice on installing seatbelts on my 49 convertible. I have read some earlier threads on this forum from a few years back, but thought I should start a new thread to see if there is any new advice.
First, both lap and shoulder restraints are a must. My wife will not get in the car without these, nor would I allow her or my kids in any car without them. Someone here recommended a racing harness since it is easily detachable for show. Well, this car is currently intended as a driver only and a harness is just too much for me.
The main problem is on where to attach the shoulder point. The most logical spot is on the rear door trim. I have removed this trim and there is some solid steel underneath where I believe I can safely get this point attached. My only concern is that by doing such, I will be permanently making a hole in valuable metal door trim. If I ever sell this car, this may turn some people off. I can likely attach to the inside steel by placing the point just under the trim, but would that make it too low? The anchor point would sit at least several inches below the driver’s/passenger’s shoulder.
My current modern car (BMW convertible) has the belt built into the seat, but has the exit point coming out on a device high up and to the side of the headrest (clearly above the shoulder, and certainly more comfortable). Every other car I looked at that has seat integrated belts has a similar design. I don’t think that building the belt into the seat is a reasonable option, as the seat back does not lock down as it does on other modern cars. It is also not reinforced enough to make this really safe. More likely, this would give us a false sense of security.
Finally, I had the cool idea (at least I think so) of hiding the seatbelt retractor inside the rear panel trim. There is enough space and steel inside there to attach this. The belt would exit from a slit I could cut in the trim near the ashtray. Ideally I would like to run the belt all the way inside up to the top inside the trim, but don’t think there is enough room.
Here are a couple of photoshop pictures to show what I am thinking about.
Any input would be appreciated.
Attachments
Seatbelt_Below_Trim.jpg (39 downloads)
Description:
Seatbelt_on_trim.jpg (36 downloads)
Description:
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1949 Buick Super Convertible
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#503838 - 04/20/08 09:58 PM
Re: Seatbelt Advice Needed
[Re: galenmd]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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Adding seat belts to a vintage vehicle would be similar to what the street rod people do to update their vehicles in this manner. The current issue of Street Rodder magazine has several ads for seat belts, even "3-point" belts with appropriate retractors. Even a choice of buckle styles (button or "aircraft") and multiple colors. Pricing is not too bad, either.
The "in the seat" seat belts are designed to be there, not added in later. Also, the floorpan area is reinforced on such vehicles to take the additional forces necessary to keep the seat location intact in the case of an accident (rather than it being like an ejection seat!).
When adding the 3-point shoulder belts, having a suitably strong mounting point is imperative--not just to an available part of the vehicle body which might be handy and fit the installed length of the belt. A little more complicated than just adding lap belts and the "anchor" reinforcements to the floorpan. Plus, what might seem "stout" might not remain that way when the bending forces of collision impacts happen. What might seem like an easy thing to do suddenly has many more side issues involved -- as in the case of the 3-point belts rather than just the more normal lap belts. The lap belt mounting points will be pretty "standard" in location, but where to mount the shoulder belt on the 3-point belts can be an issue.
The 3-point belts in the ads attach to the roof rail and the floor pan rail area on the rocker panel side of the car, with a sliding buckle that attaches to the inner belt (in the driveshaft hump area). This is similar to what GM used on many later 1970s vehicles, in design.
The location of the shoulder belt mounting can also have a huge bearing of how comfortable they are to wear. Putting undue pressure on the wearer's shoulder blade or side of the neck are not good alternatives . . . alternatives which can vary with the height and stature of the wearer.
So, look for the magazine and check the company websites to see what your alternatives might be. It would also be good to check out the local cruises to see what others have done (in the street rod realm of things) or maybe even some street rod car builders.
Just some thoughts,
NTX5467
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#504469 - 04/22/08 11:02 PM
Re: Seatbelt Advice Needed
[Re: galenmd]
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JohnD1956
Member
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 2221
Loc: New York
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Those are interesting concept pictures. I wonder how effective they would be if ( God forbid) you were really in an accident.
I would think the best alternative for safety is to get the anchor point high up on the back seat area and horizontal which to me means anchor them them in the well area for the top. Then for show purposes you can just slip them into the well and put the boot on. But most important you may be able to anchor the belt way up on the side and get it virtually flat horizontally with the top of the front seat.
Of course, I myself would just opt for the lap belts. Regardless of the reduced safety, re-engineering shoulder belts without expertise on the dynamics of the human body in a crash may cause more damage than intended.
_________________________
John C. De Fiore BCA # 3757 56 Super 56R 69 GS 400 Convertible 69 Electra Limited 2 dr.( well, no longer limited although still unique) 95 Riviera Supercharged (sold) 06 Lacrosse CXL Doing my part to stimulate the economy! Member of the UPSTATE NY CHAPTER check it out at http://unybca.skyphix.com/
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#504504 - 04/23/08 01:25 AM
Re: Seatbelt Advice Needed
[Re: JohnD1956]
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NTX5467
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 2721
Loc: DFW, TX
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Just as with bias-ply tires and NO cupholders, MANY of us lived to remember when lap belts were all there was. If you were not used to wearing them, they seemed confining on long trips (compared to "no belts" and the move-around freedom that allowed on long trips). In some cases, they made you sit up straighter when you were buckled-in. Given the genrally larger distances between the occupants and the interior "hard parts" of an older vehicle, I suspect that lap belts could be adequate. A key point was to keep the occupant "anchored" to the seat and not bouncing around in a collision situation (as it was the "secondary collision" that tended to cause more bodily injuries.
I concur that the placement of the shoulder belt anchor needs some careful consideration to make sure that everything works as it needs to and does not harm the passenger behind the seat belt mechanism.
Later,
NTX5467
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#504844 - 04/24/08 12:18 PM
Re: Seatbelt Advice Needed
[Re: galenmd]
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martylum
Member
Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 103
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Galen-I've been a big fan of lapbelts since my first new car in 1963 which came factory equipped.
I've installed many seat lapbelt sets in 40 and 50's cars but never attempted to install a 3 point belt. My new 71 Chevy Impala had 2 separate belts with 2 separate buckles so the belt attaching for lap and shoulder belts were independent.
If you do not get a very secure mount for the shoulder part of the 3 point belt, the lap part isn't going to hold securely as it's tied into the shoulder strapping.
Consider using belts from an early 70s vehicle where lap and shoulder belts were separate entities.You'd have at least a very secure lapbelt with questionable shoulder mount as the car wasn't engineered for the shoulder mount.
Have you considered the consequences of a rollover with a convertible?
I did collide with an overturned 18 wheeler one foggy night in 1981. My 71 Chevy Impala's car body was destroyed and windshield shattered but I walked away from the accident thanks in part to my shoulder and lap belts.
Martin Lum
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