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#505889 - 04/28/08 10:26 PM
Re: A Beginning
[Re: HurstGN]
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Dave@Moon
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 7373
Loc: Fairfield (Cincinnati), OH
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Dan, the Allegheny River is about 250 yards wide at the Point. Boston's "Big Dig" was for a tunnel slightly over 3 miles long, with a like section of above ground interstate. It's costs, including obscene overruns and what can kindly be called questionable expenditures, was $14.8 billion on completion. From downtown Pittsburgh the "Big Dig" tunnel alone would nearly reach Ross Park Mall. There's no way that $495 billion figure is accurate. You could fight a war in Iraq for that. (If you knew what you were doing!  )
That North Side secion of the rail transit system is something I helped work on in the 1980s when I was working for Baker Engineers. I doubt the entire system, including the southern section completed 15 years ago would cost even what the Big Dig did. That said I see little reason for the tunnel as well, other than (expensive) prestige for the city.
However Pittsburgh is dying largely because it invested practically ZERO in transportation infrastructure between 1955 and 1990, and today has one of the worst commuting averages in the U.S. despite having shrunk to such a small city. Even after 1990 the roads built (and the tiny subway) are laughable compared to those in major cities around the country. The bus system as well is a shambles, and hardly just because of the unions. It's precisely because these kinds of investments weren't made that the city's in such trouble. Trying to use that as an argument NOT to do it now is civic suicide. And today, with fuel cost increases comming that make today look comfy, this investment has to be made in mass transit. It's the only kind of transportation system that makes sense long term.
And not investing in it in every city ASAP is very likely societal suicide. That's why there will be more edicts to come like the one in L.A. It's well understood by planners and citizens alike. If we stand in the way or ignore it instead of working with people our interests will just be plowed under by torrent.
Edited by Dave@Moon (04/28/08 10:34 PM)
_________________________
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
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#505892 - 04/28/08 10:31 PM
Re: A Beginning
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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Dave@Moon
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/14/99
Posts: 7373
Loc: Fairfield (Cincinnati), OH
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Even after 1990 the roads built (and the tiny subway) are laughable compared to those in major cities around the country.
For instance, do you know how to tell you're 25 miles from downtown Cincinnati? The interstate opens to 8 lanes. That's pretty typical.
_________________________
"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
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#505973 - 04/29/08 09:31 AM
Re: A Beginning
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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R W Burgess
Long Time Member
Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 10064
Loc: Warsaw, Va.
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I was going to say Dave, that poor old Virginia has very few 8 lane roads (4 in each direction), mostly around the southern part of Washington DC and some of the outskirts of the Norfolk/Tidewater area.
I find it amazing that our neighboring states of Maryland and North Carolina have so much better highway improvements and additions. 
Wayne
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#506034 - 04/29/08 01:04 PM
Re: A Beginning
[Re: R W Burgess]
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rocketraider
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 3106
Loc: the Last Capital of Dixie
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The problem with people who beat the drum for mass transit is that these people tend to live in heavily urban areas (where it is practical) and cannot relate to those of us in rural areas (where it is totally impractical). By choice, I live 27 miles from work. There IS no mass transit from home to there, and if there were it wouldn't run anywhere close to my varying work schedule. It wouldn't be a practical run for any company who might try to establish it either, since it would have to cover two-lane state highways between two small cities.
Wayne, the scales are tipped in favor of the Golden Crescent when it comes to highway funding in VA. We have been trying to get US 58 four-laned from Virginia Beach to the Coalfields for over 20 years, and NoVA's transportation woes always trump the funding for that project. Then a bunch of scatterbrained legislators sign off on those idiotic "abusive driver fees" in an effort to fund transportation, with predictable political fallout. The constituent backlash was rough enough that they fell all over themselves to introduce repeals at the 08 opening session.
If NoVA has such dire road needs, the solution is simple. Establish a pro-rated fuel tax in those areas ONLY and let them pay for their own roads so other projects can get funded and move ahead. Better yet, establish transportation-dedicated user fees to be paid by the developers who keep clogging up the area. Also make them pay for installing and maintaining any stoplight erected for benefit of their development.
Don't even get me started on stoplights. "Progressive green" used to be the order of the day- keep traffic moving as smoothly as possible. Now it's swung toward "progressive red" and camera-controlled signals. All I've seen that do is congest traffic even further, since it is constantly stop-start. It has become impossible to travel from one end of this city to the other on any major throughfare without being caught at EVERY stoplight- I've often said they defy the laws of probability. Wastes fuel, wastes time, and causes road rage. I see it in other cities too, so somebody once again listened to too many damn consultants.
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#506556 - 05/01/08 07:17 AM
Re: A Beginning
[Re: Dave@Moon]
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rocketraider
Long Time Member
Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 3106
Loc: the Last Capital of Dixie
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Yes, Dave, the Commonwealth does a nice job with their rural Interstates. I suspect it has a little to do with the communities I64 passes thru too.
Now if we could only get the Charlottesville/Albemarle County folks on board for the US 29 bypass around Charlottesville... it's the biggest bottleneck on 29 between Atlanta and the DC area. I think C-Ville is afraid of being bypassed and losing traffic. With the UVA community there, I don't think they have to worry about that.
_________________________
Glenn Williamson
Rocketraider
member AACA and all major Olds clubs
"That's a strange concept, Son" said my father as he sampled the day's run of silvery-clear moonshine for taste and quality. "Good 'shine, that. Your grandpap would be proud that the gift has passed on to another generation. But yes, it's real strange that some folks feel like a varmint has more right to illegally inhabit and destroy your property than you have to prevent it from doing it."
"Come to think of it, that's why your Uncle Reade sold off all them rental houses he had. It was costing him more to fix what the varmints tore up than he was making off 'em. And the govamint wouldn't let him evict them."
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