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#499045 - 04/02/08 04:01 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: rlbleeker]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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RL, formal and PRACTICAL education is essential here. A starter motor will DIE trying to do its job. Go to a starter rebuild shop and talk with those guys. They see all the defective starters, and can pretty much tell what caused the failures (in all brands of lap-wound series motors).
Just when we think we have all the answers, they change the rules. New starters (for the last ten years) have NO WIRES in the field. They use permanent magnet fields, and gear reduction. They are much smaller, and pack a wallop like never before. They are now called "high torque" and of course, cost more. They are a better motor for these reasons; they weigh less, are smaller, don't have a field that can burn out, have fewer internal connections, and are used on a wider variety of engines.
Ford uses the same starter on six-cyl engines as well as big V-8's. Now, THERE's a drastic difference in load! The starter doesn't care because it's a series motor. Wait a minute, how can it be a series motor when there is NO SERIES WINDINGS? It can't be. Battery leads attach directly to the armature brush holders. Current is regulated by inductance and Counter-EMF. Again, check your brushes about every 3-4 years (especially on large engines).
But, if I used one of these starters on my '55 Ford (pos ground 6-volt), and simply switched polarity, it would run BACKWARDS! To remedy, I have to rotate field magnets (polarity) around.
They don't offer a 6-volt version, but guess what... It will work on 6-volts as well as the old starters will. (Use a high CCA battery if you stick with 6-v.) Remember, the slower it goes, the more current it draws.
In the final analysis, I prefer a 12 volt, negative ground system. It works better and costs less all the way around. Every auto manufacturer agrees.
Dave Dare
Electrical Engineer
Ford Motor Co.
Dearborn Assembly Plant
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#499094 - 04/02/08 06:56 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: simplyconnected]
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rlbleeker
Member
Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 201
Loc: Spokane, WA
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Dave, I'm in no way suggesting that a 6V system is better than a 12V system or that people shouldn't convert. My only points are:
1) That converting to 12V is an option, not a requirement. Plenty of cars out there running 6V systems. If it was a car I planned to drive extensively, I'd convert it.
2) That a 6V starter on a 12V system will be more prone to failure. One option, clearly, is to run it till it dies. If it never does, great. That's what I do with VFDs on old 3 phase motors. Why rewind till you have to? But, if it was a car I planned to drive much, I'd run a 12V starter. Or have a spare in the trunk. Maybe I'm just gun shy.
If I'm wrong on #2, please explain. Chrysler used gear reduction starters clear back in the '60s, never understood why GM didn't. Enjoying the discussion tremendously.
Ryan
_________________________
BCA#43402
ROA#11563
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#499131 - 04/02/08 08:51 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: rlbleeker]
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simplyconnected
Member
Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 189
Loc: Detroit (Royal Oak), Michigan
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Ryan, I believe ALL cars started using 6-volt systems to begin with. I don't know why. Pos ground? Neg? Problems had to be solved as cheaply as possible. Eventually, it all comes down to saving money.
Remember Trico WS wiper motors? They worked too, but marginally. 'If your car came with one, you better keep it...' Sorry, I replaced mine with an electric motor (that you can't see anyway). It looks stock and works beautifully, especially on 'interval' mode. Acceleration doesn't phase it either.
Chrysler cars had that distinctive whining sound because they used gear reduction, and VERY successfully. Why didn't anyone else? I guess for the same reason only Chrysler used torsion bar suspension, or Ford's Twin I-Beam. Maybe it had to do with patent rights, but I'm sure it was a cost thing. Ford's new starters are more money.
My experience is, running my 6-volt starter on 12 volts works just fine. Is it prone to failure? I haven't found that yet, but I maintain my starter and I treat my classic car as if it is very fragile, but serviceable. Eventually, everything goes back to the earth.
You raise a good point: Every time you get behind the wheel, you are depending on your start/charge system to work. How many people maintain their starter (or generator)?
Like your variable frequency drive systems, they run them until they don't work any more. Is it because nobody wants to muscle a good starter in and out? How many years should pass before inspection? The same question goes for brakes and tires.
We at Ford, schedule all our line motors to be greased and inspected twice per year. DC motors have their brushes changed but rarely more than half at once (they need to seat properly). Some of our synchronous DC motors are still running from the 1930's. Scheduled maintenance saves us money. Who can afford to pay 1,000 assemblers to wait until a line motor is replaced? I see my car the same way, an ounce of prevention...
I enjoy helping restorers any way I can. It is truly a labor of love and a very difficult task, particularly when the car manufacturers do not help support their old products.
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#499360 - 04/03/08 03:28 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: simplyconnected]
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rlbleeker
Member
Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 201
Loc: Spokane, WA
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I don't know why everybody started with 6V either. Maybe it had to do with battery technology at that time. Maybe the engineers just thought that was plenty. It would be interesting to know.
I agree, maintenance has a huge impact on both performance and reliability. I would hazard to guess that the vast majority of owners NEVER service their start/charge system; they wait till they have a critical issue. That's really my point with regards to 6V systems. We know a 12V system is better, but many people tend to blame ALL their problems on the fact that it's 6V, when in reality much of the issue may be the condition of the system. I see the same thing over and over with disc brakes. If your car is breaking really poorly, it's not because it's got drum brakes, it's because something is wrong. I wouldn't
be at all surprised if you never have an issue. But if somebody just throws a one wire alternator and a 12V battery in a car with a marginal system, they may.
In my shop, if a machine goes down, it's not a big deal. It's just my home shop and I'll put off whatever I was doing till I get it fixed. I'd much rather change a starter at home than a parking lot though. So, for me, it would be worth the extra bucks to go ahead and get a 12V starter. I think that improves my odds a bit.
I've got a couple of 5HP DC motors from the 40s in the shop, still running after who knows how many thousands of hours. I should probably check the brushes on those.
_________________________
BCA#43402
ROA#11563
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#500373 - 04/07/08 06:35 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: rlbleeker]
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Gary_N
Member
Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 407
Loc: Maryland
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If I put the battery in the trunk, what size cables would I need to use?
Gary
_________________________
BCA #40969 '50 Special - "Yoda" '54 Roadmaster - "Frankie" '64 Electra Coupe - "Arthur" '48 De Soto S11 Coupe - "Bobo" '01 Z06 SCCA - T1 Racecar "Dragonfire" - For Sale ------------------- http://www.wrenchhappy.com
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#500381 - 04/07/08 06:49 PM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: Gary_N]
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Gary_N
Member
Registered: 10/19/04
Posts: 407
Loc: Maryland
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Let me re-phrase the battery in the trunk question: 1 gauge or 2? Thanks! Gary
_________________________
BCA #40969 '50 Special - "Yoda" '54 Roadmaster - "Frankie" '64 Electra Coupe - "Arthur" '48 De Soto S11 Coupe - "Bobo" '01 Z06 SCCA - T1 Racecar "Dragonfire" - For Sale ------------------- http://www.wrenchhappy.com
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#500576 - 04/08/08 09:55 AM
Re: Best Alternatior for a 12V conversion - '50 Str8?
[Re: Gary_N]
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Matt Harwood
Member
Registered: 10/09/01
Posts: 1623
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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The bigger, the better. I used 0 gauge welding cable in my race car when I moved the battery to the trunk. The longer the wire, the higher the resistance. Bigger is always better in cases like this. I'm sure the more knowledgeable fellows above will give you better answers than this, too. 
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