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#395145 - 01/24/07 06:34 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: Pete Phillips]
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DaveCorbin
Member
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Texas
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For all of you to turn green over:
Considerable work with the body plates and the engine has revealed that Pete's car is an ALL NUMBERS AND CODES MATCH CAR. It's not a 401, it's the 425 engine with a 4 speed, positraction, white with a black top, red bucket seat interior, optional red floor mats present. It even has the red accelerator pedal, the red brake pedal and the red CLUTCH pedal pad on it in decent condiion.
Rare? Try maybe as few as 3 1963 Wildcat convertibles with factory 425 4 speeds !!!!
Regards, Dave Corbin
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#395146 - 01/24/07 10:57 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: DaveCorbin]
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4-Speed
Member
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
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If it is a JW car, shouldn't the motor be silver? I thought the 63 425 motors weren't painted Buick green. In the first picture the car has green valve covers and oil fill cap. If it is a real JW car, way cool.
Matt
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#395147 - 01/26/07 02:48 AM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: 4-Speed]
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DaveCorbin
Member
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Texas
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Dear 4-speed:
The engine is in fact a JW engine and the stamped numbers match to the car number. Remember that this is a Wildcat, not a Riv, and an option that was introduced inside the model year. This probably accounts for the engne being the standard color. The dirt and crud also indicate an original engine. "Way cool" probably isn't strong enough!!
Regards, Dave Corbin
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#395149 - 01/27/07 12:33 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: Skyking]
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BJM
Member
Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 1386
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Matt,
No expert here but I would expect that each of the early 4 speeds (could) would be the equivalent of COPO's in the Chevy parlance. In other words, it's not like these cars were "worked in" with the 6500 or so Wildcat convertibles and even more coupes. We know that the 401 was the standard and only "production" Wildcat offering in 1963, so any one with a 425 would be an anomoly, a quirk.
The question would be, if the 425 was a Wildcat option in 1963, who else has one and what color is the motor? I believe Dave that that motor is Buick Green and I really think the reason was that this was a special built car with a special approved build sheet out of the normal requests.
I too saw this car on ebay and mentioned it and wanted it. We are very lucky that it has fallen into good hands. I wish there was more history to it. Who would order it, special order it and go through the effort? I understand a hardtop for racing purposes but a convertible?
2nd, the history would be nice to know because I am pretty sure it would have been REJECTED as an order, and may have been resubmitted with somebody higher up approving and signing off on it. We may never know it's history of course, but it is a very important car for setting the TONE that allowed 64 and 65 big block 4 speed cars to even exist.
Just my thoughts, again I'm no expert, but I like to think about these things, how this car might have got into existence in the 1st place.
_________________________
Bryan "Jake" Moran
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#395150 - 01/27/07 05:58 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: BJM]
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4-Speed
Member
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
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3Jakes, believe me, I am no expert either, but I don't believe that COPO stuff when it comes to these Buicks. The black/red 63 Wildcat 425 4-speed coupe bought new by Jimmy Dull (and for sale at the 2003 Nationals for 25K) had a silver motor. I talked with Jimmy for about 4 or so hours about his car, and since he knew that car inside and out, he'd know more than most. He ordered it with the 425 and 4-speed from the dealer, and it was not a hassle to either order or get. All 63-65 4-speed full size Buicks could be considered somewhat 'special built' because they did not make that many, and all thier floor pans were automatic floor pans cut out with a torch for the hole for either the console 4-speed shifter or trans-mounted floor shifter. But, in 63 Buick offered the 4-speed and the 425 for the first time, so I figure they would have had it together enough to make these cars as easily as possible to the automatics, and using all the VIN stamping and motor stamping protocols as they always did. As you know, I have 4 of these 4-speed Buicks, and my 63 and both 64s have a grease pencil '4' on the left firewall (I haven't dug deep enough into the 65 to find the markings). When the car was going down the line at the assembly plant in Flint, I would suspect this 4 told them to cut the hole in the floor, and in the case of Wildcats another code somewhere on the car mentioned if it was for a console shift or floor shift - possibly on the build sheet. Just because the options were new (and rarely chosen as we all know) for that year does not make their system of producing them haphazard and un-coordinated. I don't believe there would have been a special build order for them - such as having to know someone up high to get the car made, because the 425 and 4-speed were options available for the public to choose their car to be built with, and these cars were not produced for racing or any other non-steet application (like Super Duty Pontiacs, Super Stock MoPars, Z-11 Chevys, etc - which were all truly 'special ordered' and 'special built'). Buick, in 63-65, did not want a racing image for their cars, therefore none were produced or setup by the factory for racing, like the cars mentinoned above. They were to be made to be licensed and driven, so the codes, numbers, and everything would have been in line with the regular automatic cars. Also, since ALL of the 63 and later full size 4-speed Buicks were built in Flint and Flint only, there would be standards all the cars followed (engine color, VIN stampings, etc.). All 4-speeds had matching VIN motors, bodies, and transmission main cases. This car 'rejected' when ordered? Can't see that at all. How and why would an auto manufacturer offer options for a car only to say 'no, can't build it'. I have a factory-to-dealer only pricing sheet for the 63 full size Buicks (and one for the 64s too) that includes everything offered for the cars, and each has a check box for the 425 motor and 4-speed, each with a price. Neither has 'not available' when choosing a 425 and 4-speed. There would be no reason I can see to reject a 63 Wildcat convertible with a 425 and a 4-speed. Keep in mind lots if this information was gleaned from original 4-speed car owners, my own vehicle research, real tangible factory documents, and piecing together production history from several sources. I am only 35, and unfortunately I was not present in Flint when these cars were produced. How cool would have that been to watch one of these bad boys come together from build order to driving out of Buick City! Awesome!
As far as the white convertible, I have no reason to doubt it is exactly what the owners say it is. As far as the engine being a green JW, I have no answer. All I know is it is a 4-speed and a very cool car.
My opinion on why a 63 Wildcat is rare with a big motor, 4-speed, and a posi, and LeSabres even more so? The buyers regularly weren't your younger go-fast set, who chose the SS Impala and Grand Prix, and wanted an extremely well-built car that was smooth and easy to drive vehicle that had a sporty look. Someone, though, walked into a Buick dealership and chose a top of the line Wildcat with the biggest motor and a manual trans, just like Jimmy Dull, because he wanted to go fast with class.
Enjoy!
Matt
Edited by 4-Speed (01/27/07 06:07 PM)
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#395151 - 01/27/07 08:31 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: 4-Speed]
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DaveCorbin
Member
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Texas
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Dear Matt:
First, I'm working with Pete to try to document previous owners, but it takes time and patience and some luck. A couple of fellow BCA members are trying to help us, and we would welcome any other help.
You mention that you're 35, which means I joined the BCA about the time you were born, but your observations indicate that you've studied the subject pretty thoroughly. I don't know if you've ever run into the expression I used to Pete to describe this car, but I called it a "Bankers Hotrod", which is a "go-fast with class" car.
Regards, Dave Corbin
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#395152 - 01/27/07 08:43 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: DaveCorbin]
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DaveCorbin
Member
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Texas
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Dear Matt:
A small further observation: I am aware from personal direct experience that things did get built in automotive factories that weren't offered to the public. I was for a time the body shop general foreman of the IH Scout Line in the mid 60's. During that time there were at least 3 Scouts that were 1 of a kind assembled for members of the IH Board of Directors and a very senior executive.
There are several stories about Buicks that were built with similiar backgrounds, with names like Harley Earl being mentioned in a couple of them.
Regards, Dave Corbin
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#395153 - 01/27/07 09:04 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: DaveCorbin]
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DaveCorbin
Member
Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 602
Loc: Texas
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Dear Matt:
The coded markings that you mention are sort of standard factory practice that tell guys what the vehicle is without having to read the build sheet. We would put a"V" in a certain place to warn that this was a V8 Scout. Another was a number low on the firewall that was the paint color.
I have a Buick in my personal collection that is the other way around in regards to the hole in the floor. It's from a year that was floor-shift (1938), but since it's a self-shifter, the floorboard has no hole for the shift lever. The floor mat also doesn't have one, although there is a molded circular pattern where it would go. The steel pan in the center of the floor also is factory made without a shift tower hole.
Regards, Dave Corbin
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#395154 - 01/27/07 09:43 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: DaveCorbin]
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Thriller
Member
Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 2202
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Not to hijack the thread, but it is interesting...I first heard the term "Banker's Hot Rod" after procuring the '61 Invicta. I really like the phrase "go fast with class". I'm a bit older than Matt (not a pile though) and perhaps the Wildcat will get me through my mid-life go-fast crisis once it gets dialed in a bit more. Now, if only I had a four speed car...the '29 is only 3  
_________________________
Derek Thille BCA #39416, CBC, MBCC #1984 66 Wildcat Custom Coupe - "Ellie" / 62 Special Convertible / 61 Invicta Convertible / 56 Special 4-door Sedan / 52 Roadmaster 4-door / 41 Special 41SE Sedan / 29 McLaughlin Buick Model 51 2006 Buick Rainier - "Ruby" / 2005 GMC Sierra K2500 - "Max" (the hauler) Thriller's Buick Page
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#395155 - 01/29/07 07:22 AM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: 4-Speed]
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BJM
Member
Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 1386
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Matt,
For all intents and purposes YOU are the expert when it comes to early fullsize size 4 speed cars so your thoughts and insight on this subject always facinate me. Thanks for adding. My comments were, as some of my comments are, based on my vast GENERAL knowledge of everything old car and sometimes historically to understand an issue I try to look at the big picture. Your comments clearly indicate that although rare, early 4 speed cars were considered production. I figured they were production of course, built on the line but also thought that maybe Buick discouraged their production for obvious reasons. As you point out, Buick was not in the factory speed support group.
I am familiar with Pontiacs, Chevy and others efforts so I understand that difference. I was wondering where you were going with the silver engine paint.
Dave and others - what if (here I go again) the owner 'blew' up the original motor shortly after ownership, maybe even under warranty and it was replaced with a 425, same year but came in Buick Green instead of silver? Oh who knows, as Matt said, it's a 425 4 speed car, so it's cool.
_________________________
Bryan "Jake" Moran
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#395156 - 01/29/07 12:32 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: BJM]
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just4fun
New Member
Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Chicago, Illinois USA
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Nice find !! Now comes the fun part...restoration. I'm no expert on production numbers for these cars, but do know of another original owner since new 1963 4 speed Wildcat convertible. The car I've mentioned has under 70,000 original miles and was purchased new by a friend. 100% original except for the dual quads and chrome road wheels which he added in the mid 60's. This car could be taken to any car show and go home with a trophy. Same color White, but with a Black interior. If that's not enough, I remember back when I was more active in the Chicago Buick chapter, a member that had a '63 Lesabre station wagon with the factory 4 speed. Now, how rare is that ?
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#395157 - 01/29/07 08:06 PM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: BJM]
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4-Speed
Member
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 110
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
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Thank you, 3Jakes. I wouldn't say 'expert', though, rather just a hack that really, REALLY, digs manual Buicks. To sum all my drivel up, I would say that the 4-speeds were production cars, very rarely-chosen optioned cars, but production cars. I don't think Buick went out of their way to advertise or really sell their stick-shift cars, like Pontiac or Chevrolet, but if the 'gotta shift myself' Buick buyer hit the dealership, he could get his car his way. Someone on eBay recently tried to pass off a cobbled together geeen X-code 65 Wildcat 4-speed convertible as a 'COPO' car, and as it turns out it is a car with one car's body, a different car's data tags, and another car's X motor. Didn't work. If all the numbers pan out on Pete's 63, and it is a 425 car, it is as rare as a rare car gets, bottom line, and would make a stellar 'Cat when finished. I am not a convertible guy at all, and I really like it.
Pete, keep us updated on that car! Your Wildcat put the fire under my feet to re-persue a real-deal 63 Wildcat 4-speed coupe today that I was riding the fence about. When it hits my door, I'll post some pics.
Just4fun, if possible, it would be awesome to see a pic or two of that ginnie 63 4-speed convertible.
Enjoy!
Matt
Edited by 4-Speed (01/29/07 08:11 PM)
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#395158 - 01/30/07 11:22 AM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: 4-Speed]
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just4fun
New Member
Registered: 01/14/06
Posts: 8
Loc: Chicago, Illinois USA
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I don't have a ready pic available, but will ask my friend to get one to me. It's his dad's car and I'm sure he has some pics as I remember going through a pile of pics with him once. May take a bit, but I'll get one posted ASAP.
Rich
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#395159 - 02/09/07 01:23 AM
Re: 1963 Wildcat conv. 4-speed
[Re: just4fun]
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59Burk
New Member
Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 8
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Before you go blowing Matt's Buick ego all up ( not sure if that's possible anyway, it's already max'd ), I'd just like to say I taught him everything he knows about Buicks..... hee hee ! I grew up with him, so I can get away with that one !
For the record, I found Matt 2 of his rare Buicks ( the 63 lesabre 4 speed car, and the 64 Wildcat factory dual 4 car )... Just wanted to mention that because I love pointing that out.
Did Matt tell you when he's done with his 64 Wildcat X-code car we are racing on 'Pinks' ? It's on my friend !! It's on !
Ryan
Celina,TX
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