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#382108 - 10/17/06 05:00 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: SolidAxle]
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De Soto Frank
Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 1654
Loc: Scranton, PA. USA
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A reasonable question...
One of the variables with the "full classics" such as the Duesenbergs, K-series Lincolns, etc, as that many of those cars were "coach-built" to begin with, so there may be more lee-way with a "re-body", which sometimes happened to a given car during its time with the original owner...
But, trying to "fake" a high-dollar [for the moment] muscle car is not something to be encouraged.
At the Hershey swap meet, I saw the remains of a mid-to late '20s Kissel chassis on a trailer... judging by the velour upholstery and robe-cord on the back of the front seat, I would opine that this car was originally a sedan. The only body that was left was from the cowl forward...
I would further opine that it would be far more costly to recreate the sedan body for this car than it would be to re-create the "Gold-Bug" speedster body ( and far less saleable as a closed car)... but if someone were moved to so, that car should be disclosed as a replica... not passed-off as a true "Gold-Bug"...
My philosophical concern about "clones" and the AACA is that folks might try to use AACA awards to build a "provenance" for a clone, and then try to use that "provenance" to justify an astronomical selling price for their "Franken-Kar"...
(which I think was stated in the previous post... sorry to be redundant!)
_________________________
Frank McMullen
1941 De Soto, 1948 Chrysler NY,
1941,1954, 1955-first, 1989 Chevy trucks,
1960 Chrysler Windsor,
1964 Valiant Signet Convertible,
etc, etc...
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#382109 - 10/17/06 06:32 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: De Soto Frank]
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SolidAxle
Member
Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 60
Loc: NE Ohio
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Your point on classics is well taken. Even in those circles however, the ultimate selling value of the rebodied vehicles is far less than those that house their authentic coach built body. A great example is a local collectors early Mercedes wood bodied skiff. The vehicle was often referred to as an original creation but later determined to have been borne a closed vehicle that was "re-created" in the style of the latter coach builder. Its value proportionately dropped when it recently sold at auction earlier this year.
While I'm not a clone proponent, I also don't want to be the clone police either. People will be people. Some will undoubtedly try to cheat others and misrepresent their vehicle. I would simply like to keep the liability and burden of doing so where it belongs..... on the owner.
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#382110 - 10/18/06 09:48 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: SolidAxle]
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1957Birdman
Member
Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 26
Loc: Rockville, MD
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I agree that in the end the responsibility rests with the owner. I don't have too much trouble with an owner that decides to upgrade his car as long as he doesn't decide to pass it off as something it isn't when it is sold. For example, it is possible to make a 1965 Mustang into a Mustang GT without anyone being the wiser, as long as the data plate indicates an "A" or "K" code engine. Making the change does not harm the car in any way, but it is still not a real Mustang GT. He may remember to mention that it is not a real GT when then car is sold, but will his heirs who sell it after he is gone?
Of course there are a number of people who go into this with malice in there hearts from the start. Another example was on eBay within the last 2 years. Someone sold a data plate for a 1957 T-Bird for over a $1000. Why was it that expensive you might ask? It was because it was for an "E" Code Bird, one that had the dual four barrel 312 cid engine. It is obvious that this was bought by somebody that intends to make a counterfeit "E" Bird. The problem is that a person might not know this until they bought the car and then checked the vin number on the dataplate against the serial number on the frame and found a mismatch. I also don't have a problem with taking two semi-basket case cars and making one good car out of them. It does stand to reason that if the data plate does not match the frame the car is worth less than one that does.
AACA may want to consider having some kind of a disclaimer that indicates that the cars are judged as presented and no effort was made to ensure authenticity of the car relative to the data plate if so equipped. Some variation on this may be necessary to ensure that AACA's good name isn't brought into the inevitable lawsuit when one of these clones is exposed.
Regards
_________________________
Lew Bachman
1957 Thunderbird
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#382111 - 10/18/06 11:06 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: Steve Moskowitz]
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59chevyguy
Member
Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 46
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To legally protect the AACA from documenting the fact that a car is or is not a "clone" (I really hate that word in our hobby) AACA's legal department shoud have a disclaimer in the front of the judging manual acknowledging the fact that they do not state any car is 100% authentic with respect to any VIN or Cowl lettering or numbering.
Anyone can go on the Web and have a Cowl plate made but the same is not true for a VIN unless you produce the State Registration card or other documentation.
Additionally, with many 50's classics it is a simple task to take out a smaller engine and replace it with a period correct larger big block to increase value with no car ID necessary other than the fact that the car had a V8 in the first place.
It is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and BJ has not helped this hobby but severly hurt it. Just my opinion.
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#382113 - 10/18/06 04:48 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: mrpushbutton]
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SolidAxle
Member
Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 60
Loc: NE Ohio
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I understand your point regarding the production number differences between the classic "clones" and muscle "clones". The point that I was trying to make is that a Duesenberg Derham Tourister would be treated identically to any high performance muscle car as far as authenticity is concerned, under AACA meet rules.
To my knowledge neither have their engine numbers, body numbers, or trim tags interrogated for originality or authenticity by AACA judges. Therefore using your example, ANY Duesenberg Derham Tourister could theoretically achieve its Junior, Senior, and Grand National awards regardless or it being authentic or original.
By the way here is one of the four originals... http://ckautollc.photosite.com/DetailingWork/31Tourister/
I don't think that the argument is that different between the two. I've had the pleasure of attending several auctions during the past two years with a noted collector of Duesenbergs, Auburns, Packards, and Pierce Arrows. He has identified several Duesey's (he owns 8) crossing the block as "fakes" according to the factory documention of their body and engine numbers. He cringes when they bring over $1M, just as I do when I watch B-J and see muscle clones pulling huge money.
The reality is that where there is big money involved, there are people who will do anything to get it. I just don't want to see the AACA assist them in any way if possible.
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#382114 - 10/18/06 07:37 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: SolidAxle]
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1937hd45
Long Time Member
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 5121
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Are there really that many STUPID people with a spair MILLION dollars or more to spend on a vehicle that they are TOO STUPID to research? If so, they get no simpathy from me.
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#382115 - 10/19/06 05:08 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 1937hd45]
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ex98thdrill
Member
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2112
Loc: East Bloomfield, New York
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Yes there are.
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#382116 - 10/19/06 09:08 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: ex98thdrill]
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Matt Harwood
Member
Registered: 10/09/01
Posts: 1605
Loc: Cleveland, OH
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There was an old farmer who had his father's favorite axe. He'd replaced the handle twice and the head four times, but by God, it was the same darned axe!
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#382117 - 10/19/06 10:12 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: Matt Harwood]
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61-63
Member
Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 75
Loc: Sour Lake, Texas
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I cast my vote with those who feel that AACA should continue to judge as to the vehicle being correct to the year and not the build sheet, build plate, or whatever. In addition to all of the reasons already stated it would also be inconsistent to do otherwise because for many cars there are no build sheets, original records, or build plates, or the build plates are vague or contain minimal data. The owners of those vehicles could therefore do whatever they wanted as long as their vehicle was correct to the year, where-as owners of vehicles with documentation available would be held to a more rigorous standard.
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#382118 - 10/20/06 08:53 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 61-63]
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1937hd45
Long Time Member
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 5121
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Quote:
I cast my vote with those who feel that AACA should continue to judge as to the vehicle being correct to the year and not the build sheet, build plate, or whatever. In addition to all of the reasons already stated it would also be inconsistent to do otherwise because for many cars there are no build sheets, original records, or build plates, or the build plates are vague or contain minimal data. The owners of those vehicles could therefore do whatever they wanted as long as their vehicle was correct to the year, where-as owners of vehicles with documentation available would be held to a more rigorous standard.
Just as they did when there was a 1940 cut off date for cars that were allowed on the AACA National Meet show fields. This is a Late Model Problem let the fans of those vehicled deal with it.
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#382119 - 10/21/06 03:12 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 1937hd45]
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59chevyguy
Member
Registered: 10/14/04
Posts: 46
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Quote:
Quote:
This is a Late Model Problem let the fans of those vehicled deal with it.
So what does that mean? Are we now seperating the AACA into those who want to resolve problems before 1940 and those after 1940?
I thought we were all one group dedicated to the same cause, The preservation of antique and classic cars.
I doubt that the majority in AACA think that way and I do not you think that way either, you just worded it incorrectly.
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#382120 - 10/21/06 08:05 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 59chevyguy]
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1937hd45
Long Time Member
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 5121
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This is a Late Model Problem let the fans of those vehicled deal with it.
So what does that mean? Are we now seperating the AACA into those who want to resolve problems before 1940 and those after 1940?
I thought we were all one group dedicated to the same cause, The preservation of antique and classic cars.
I doubt that the majority in AACA think that way and I do not you think that way either, you just worded it incorrectly.
NO, I proof read it, and picked the words quite carefully.The problems were started with the Late Model vehicles & owners, I happen to like Pre WWII vehicles and have no interest in the problems with Late Model iron.
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#382121 - 10/22/06 11:07 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 1937hd45]
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SolidAxle
Member
Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 60
Loc: NE Ohio
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"All Indians walk in a single file line.... especially the one that I saw".
Edited by SolidAxle (10/24/06 09:23 AM)
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#382122 - 10/23/06 09:02 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: SolidAxle]
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61-63
Member
Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 75
Loc: Sour Lake, Texas
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Quote:
"All Indians walk in a single file line.... especialy the one that I saw".
Good post!
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