25179 Members
87 Forums
114348 Topics
506795 Posts
Max Online: 479 @ 03/26/08 04:18 PM
|
|
|
Lost your password? Can't remember your username? Having registration problems? Answers to many of these problems can be
FOUND HERE!
|
|
|
#382093 - 10/14/06 07:52 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: packards42]
|
De Soto Frank
Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 1654
Loc: Scranton, PA. USA
|
I can't help but notice the number of "clones" that seem to be rolling across the block at B-J...
Of the "muscle" variety...
Are the folks that build these "clones" trying to win trophies or simply out to make big bucks ?
In the case of my own '41 De Soto, I have been digging into my factory parts book, and have found that there were a number of running production changes regarding various features on the '41 De Sotos, from dashboards to garnish mouldings, to fender welting, to a host of other "minor" changes... and the books lists which version of multiple parts were used up to such & such body-number or serial number... and the change-over points are not the same for every part affected...
So, to judge whether or not a given '41 De Soto were "correct" (quality of resto or preservation notwithstanding), would require that a judge be familiar with all the peculiarities of that particular marque for that particular year... that's a tall order for a show judge...
On the other hand, if a given '41 De Soto were competing for an AACA Senior, I should think that this sort of attention to detail is warranted.
If a car is constructed from parts and/or several vehicles, to represent something it never was in the first place, then the owner/creator should be forthcoming about that.
If not, then wouldn't they be trying to achieve a deception ? ( And for some, I guess the joy is in the challenge of trying to pass-off a fake)
And if the prize-winning example turns-out to be a fake, then doesn't that qualify it as a "replica" ?
At least in the world of "fine art", there are some very, very good "fakes", that are very nice to look at, and are excellent examples of their maker's skills ... but they're still not the "real
Mc Coy"
I agree that this is a can of worms, but perhaps for later-model vehicles, that are more likely to be "faked", is it not so far-fetched to have class-experts armed with the various numbers-books so that things a '70 Hemi- Walleye could be thoroughly checked-out ?
As for somebody recreating the rest of an appropriate body around an extant running gear from say a 1904 Olds or the like, again, as long as the owners offer disclosure, I don't see harm in that effort... but again, it would largely be a "replica", wouldn't it ?
(Perhaps I'm missing the point of all this; a "fake" is something designed to deceive; a "replica" is more of an homage... so I guess it comes down to intent, or motive...  )
_________________________
Frank McMullen
1941 De Soto, 1948 Chrysler NY,
1941,1954, 1955-first, 1989 Chevy trucks,
1960 Chrysler Windsor,
1964 Valiant Signet Convertible,
etc, etc...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382094 - 10/14/06 08:29 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: De Soto Frank]
|
MCHinson
Member
Registered: 06/27/06
Posts: 756
Loc: Wilmington, NC
|
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382095 - 10/14/06 08:50 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: De Soto Frank]
|
sparky65
Member
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 59
Loc: North Jersey
|
Quote:
I agree that this is a can of worms, but perhaps for later-model vehicles, that are more likely to be "faked", is it not so far-fetched to have class-experts armed with the various numbers-books so that things a '70 Hemi- Walleye could be thoroughly checked-out ?
Even if the judges were armed with decoding books and the likes a real problem is that guys are buying total wrecks of a valuable car just for the VIN numbers. They cut them out and weld them on a different body. Or better yet stamp there own VIN. For Mustangs at least the data plates that had a lot of option information on them were reproduced for years. So anyone could stamp what they wanted.
The other thing is how far are you going to go? I believe the AACA has always said that as long as it was an option for that model and year it was ok. Are we going to start saying that now you have to have the exact paint color the car started with?
The building around a VIN issue has been a hot issue since so many reproductions became available. Isn?t it Dynacorn which is reproducing an entire car? Its a big question with no easy answer. I don?t know if there is we can do to catch everything but maybe we can find ways to discourage some of it.
_________________________
Thanks, Steve 67 I6 coupe to be restored  Dont ask what the car looks like now. I guess inorder to get better it must get worse.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382097 - 10/15/06 02:17 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: javabug]
|
Pontiac59
Member
Registered: 10/14/03
Posts: 885
|
What about the guy who has a rusted out '58 Chrysler convertible and restores it using a 2dr hardtop donor car to replace the main frame, quarters, rockers, doors, floorpans, etc. - all stuff that is not reproduced - will that be considered a clone, or a legitimate car? I've sold a number of cars to guys to be restored in this manner, the wrecks we find up here it's usually the only way to save them.
_________________________
Those who can, build. Those who can't, criticize on the internet. If you can't, don't click here:
Cars and other stuff for sale
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382098 - 10/15/06 03:07 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: Pontiac59]
|
De Soto Frank
Member
Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 1654
Loc: Scranton, PA. USA
|
I guess it depends on whether or not that '58 Chrysler convertible transmogrifies into a "300 letter-car" along the way ?
_________________________
Frank McMullen
1941 De Soto, 1948 Chrysler NY,
1941,1954, 1955-first, 1989 Chevy trucks,
1960 Chrysler Windsor,
1964 Valiant Signet Convertible,
etc, etc...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382099 - 10/15/06 11:19 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: De Soto Frank]
|
mrpushbutton
Member
Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 1198
Loc: Detroit, MI - the home of Pack...
|
The muscle car Mopars are really a shaky area on this--the build sheets exist up to the '67 model year, and are gone after that. The cars that are really hot now are 68-71 Hemi-powered cars, and E bodies, and there is a little cottage industry out there popping out fender tags (that say what you pay them to say) and one self-appointed expert whose every word is taken as gospel truth. B-J likes what happens when these cars cross the block, and that is going to tempt a few souls. The same thing has been happening to Schwinn Phantom bikes (clones from lesser models) and Lionel immediate postwar F-3 Santa Fe Diesel A-B-A combinations--you have to know your product before putting your precious $$$ down.
The ultimate award of a given vehicle usually comes from the marque club that knows that make and year and model, down to the fastener heads, hose clamps,underhood finishes and QC man grease paint marks. No car restored without strict adherence to originality score high with most of these groups.
The AACA judges are good, and know a great deal about many cars, but none of us knows everything about every given make and model down to minutia. I remember showing an Auburn at Hershey, and Madame judge wanted to dock us points because "we moved the battery from under the seat to under the fender". We politely pointed out that all Auburn models in this year-series-type have their batteries under the fender, with a cover. She insisted that "all cars from the thirties had the batteries under the seats". We were able to pull another well-known Auburn owner into the discussion, he affirmed what we said, and the points were not knocked. That would not happen at a single-marque judging meet--those guys live,eat,sleep and breathe that particular car, and know where, and how everything is supposed to be. On the other hand, they might know something completely arcane about "how your car is supposed to be" that you did not find when you got it to restore, and the deduction of points can be a shocker.
Not to slam the AACA and their judging--any group that promotes the caliber of restoration we see at the Hershey show every year must be doing something right.
_________________________
John
The real pity in America is that the people who really know how to run the country are all tending bar and cutting hair--George Burns
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382100 - 10/16/06 12:10 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: mrpushbutton]
|
ted sweet
Member
Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 941
Loc: albany NY
|
not true about mopar build sheets, i have one from a 74 cuda
_________________________
1974 Plymouth Cuda-360 Auto
1991 Chysler Lebaron Vert
1973 Dodge Dart Swinger-318 Auto
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T-440 Auto
1968 Chrysler 300 Convertible-440 Auto
1994 Ford Taurus SHO
1966 Chrysler Newport-383 auto
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382101 - 10/16/06 12:41 PM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: mrpushbutton]
|
Ron Green
Member
Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 1820
Loc: Camp Hill, PA. USA
|
Quote; "The ultimate award of a given vehicle usually comes from the marque club that knows that make and year and model, down to the fastener heads, hose clamps, underhood finishes and QC man grease paint marks. No car restored without strict adherence to originality score high with most of these groups."
That would be nice however there are a few marquee clubs that aren't even close to judging perfection. The one large club in particular like many has one national convention a year, no experienced judges or training and knowingly allows false data plates if the owner wants to change colors to either stock or wild. I have had food vendors judge my vehicle as they were that short on judges.
_________________________
Ron Green
AACA Member #337715
AACA Gettysburg Region (board member)
President Amphicar Club (IAOC)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382103 - 10/17/06 09:00 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: 1937hd45]
|
RVAnderson
Member
Registered: 09/08/02
Posts: 149
|
OK; say I have a 1914 Model T, a year for which many reproduction parts have become available. Say the car has an original chassis, with only a few reproduction parts, but the body is about 80% repop(all wood and most sheetmetal).
Do I then have a "clone," a "replica," or a "restoration?"
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382104 - 10/17/06 09:26 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: RVAnderson]
|
ted sweet
Member
Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 941
Loc: albany NY
|
you have a restoration.
_________________________
1974 Plymouth Cuda-360 Auto
1991 Chysler Lebaron Vert
1973 Dodge Dart Swinger-318 Auto
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T-440 Auto
1968 Chrysler 300 Convertible-440 Auto
1994 Ford Taurus SHO
1966 Chrysler Newport-383 auto
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382105 - 10/17/06 10:10 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: RVAnderson]
|
1937hd45
Long Time Member
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 5121
|
Quote:
OK; say I have a 1914 Model T, a year for which many reproduction parts have become available. Say the car has an original chassis, with only a few reproduction parts, but the body is about 80% repop(all wood and most sheetmetal).
Do I then have a "clone," a "replica," or a "restoration?"
IF you have a touring, or roadster body it would be viewed as a restoration in my eye. IF it had a Depot Hack or Pie Wagon body at first glance from 30 feet away I'd say it was an modern/repop.The whole Model T aftermarket bodied chassis topic could have its own thread. I still say an ORIGINAL built in the 1920's Mercury Speedster bodied T chassis is more correct that the pile of oak some one built a Depot Hack body from last month. The Hack will have an AACA first Junior plaque while the AACA rules BAN the Mercury Bodied car from National competition. Something that has bothered me fow a few years. 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#382106 - 10/17/06 10:16 AM
Re: clones in the AACA
[Re: Ron Green]
|
ex98thdrill
Member
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 2109
Loc: East Bloomfield, New York
|
Food venders judging your car?? I didn't think a stove and the kitchen sink were options on your pontiac. I know you have everything else that goes with the car, but I bet that's why they were over there judging your car.
....either that or they needed a shave 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Rick Lay, Steve Moskowitz, KRK Sr., John_Marsh, John_L_Walker, R W Burgess, 24T42, Dynaflash8, Peter J.Heizmann, SalG (Sal Grenci), boettger, Brenda Shore, gagliaj
|
