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#369523 - 08/12/06 09:47 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: Barry Wolk]
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South_paw
Member
Registered: 09/23/05
Posts: 104
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Barry, First off glad to hear you're ok.
The WD hitch set up you used is grossly under rated for your truck/trailer setup. From the looks of the pictures the bars are 600lbs load rating at best. I brought this up once before... Regardless of how the trailer can balance weight. You MUST carry a 12% tongue weight load. Some quick math puts that loaded tongue weight at about 1200 lbs.
YOU CAN NOT DEFY PHYSICS!!! The sway was clearly a case of the tail wagging the dog. You said it yourself. When you hit the crown of the road the bar was not under tension. That bar is suppose to have tension on it 100% of the time! Your tongue weight was not enough to keep the tension on the bar and then the trailer brakes were applied . This action put a great deal of load on the tongue in a split second. The pin had no chance of holding the under rated bar in place. Get rid of the mickey mouse WD hitch and get a real one click here Once again , I'm glad you're ok.
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#369525 - 08/13/06 07:19 AM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: South_paw]
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Barry Wolk
Member
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1146
Loc: Farmington Hills, MI
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Quote:
Barry, First off glad to hear you're ok.
The WD hitch set up you used is grossly under rated for your truck/trailer setup. From the looks of the pictures the bars are 600lbs load rating at best. I brought this up once before... Regardless of how the trailer can balance weight. You MUST carry a 12% tongue weight load. Some quick math puts that loaded tongue weight at about 1200 lbs.
YOU CAN NOT DEFY PHYSICS!!! The sway was clearly a case of the tail wagging the dog. You said it yourself. When you hit the crown of the road the bar was not under tension. That bar is suppose to have tension on it 100% of the time! Your tongue weight was not enough to keep the tension on the bar and then the trailer brakes were applied . This action put a great deal of load on the tongue in a split second. The pin had no chance of holding the under rated bar in place. Get rid of the mickey mouse WD hitch and get a real one click here Once again , I'm glad you're ok.
The hitch is rated for 14,000 lbs and 1,400 lbs of tongue weight. I couldn't get it any tighter.
You seem to miss the point that the wagging didn't start until the round bar fell out of it's socket. Up until then it was doing just fine.
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#369527 - 08/13/06 11:04 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: ronbarn]
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Barry Wolk
Member
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1146
Loc: Farmington Hills, MI
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Quote:
I may be missing something here, but it appears that two items have not been mentioned. I do not see a tongue jack in the photos nor has there been any mention of using a hollow pry bar to help connect the chain to the trailer frame bracket. I pull a large trailer (28 foot interior) with a heavy car and I would never go with 7 chain links. I normally use 4-5 links. To do this, after the ball is connected run the jack down to lift both the trailer ball and rear end of truck just above where you want them. Then use the hollow pry bar to get extra leverage to get as few links as possible. 6-7 is way too loose (this was also mentioned in an earlier post.) My apologies if this is the procedure that was used, but it does not appear in the descriptions.
The trailer has (4) 6,000 lb screw jacks at each corner capable of lifting the entire trailer for tire or axle service. There's no need for a tongue jack.
Obviously your hitch is different than mine. I am an incredibly strong, 6-foot 5-inch tall, 270 lb. healthy male and I'm telling you that I would have had to use a two foot longer hollow bar to set the tensioner to 6 links.
So, in your opinion I had them too loose? You base that on the number of links? What if your links are 2" long and mine are only 1 1/2" long.
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#369528 - 08/13/06 11:20 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: R W Burgess]
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novaman
Member
Registered: 06/11/00
Posts: 2395
Loc: Mebane, NC, USA
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#369530 - 08/14/06 09:11 AM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: novaman]
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R W Burgess
Long Time Member
Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 10080
Loc: Warsaw, Va.
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Thanks David! That's exactly the same system I have and you can see in your photograph the "pretension" you have put into the bars.
Barry, I feel that this hitch is much stronger than what you have. I still wonder if your trailer isn't a little too heavy for your towing vehicle. I wish you were nearby, I'd like to take a trial run with your rig, empty of course.
BTW, I bought another fender for my enclosed trailer last week to replace the one blown off by bad tires last year. Earl Beauchamp said sometime in the past that 5 years is about the limit on these trailer tires. I'm beginning to believe him. 
Wayne
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#369531 - 08/14/06 10:58 AM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: R W Burgess]
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Barry Wolk
Member
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1146
Loc: Farmington Hills, MI
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Quote:
I still wonder if your trailer isn't a little too heavy for your towing vehicle. Wayne
The F-450 with DRW is rated for 16,000 lbs. There's nothing wrong with the tow vehicle. It operated just fine all the way home from the accident scene (30 miles) with absolutely no wag and very little porpoising. All I used was a standard 2 5/16" ball with no load leveling or sway control. 2 + 2 = 4, doesn't it? Why do you guys keep coming back to the capacity of the tow vehicle.
The round bar and the chain cinch were found on the ground at the beginning of the incident. It doesn't take a lot of rocket science to see cause and effect here, does it?
Assuming that I didn't tighten up the chains sufficiently, all that should have happened is a lack of function. Under no circumstances should the round bar drop out of its socket. Wouldn't you agree?
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#369532 - 08/14/06 11:32 AM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: Barry Wolk]
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jrbartlett
Member
Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 304
Loc: Houston, Texas
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It would seem to me that with your dual-wheel F-450 you wouldn't even need a load-leveling setup. I've known people who've driven these things for years with very heavy trailers and indicated that for all practical purposes you almost can't make it swerve.
_________________________
James Bartlett
jamesandeileen@comcast.net
19 Locomobile Sportif
29 Packard Super 8 roadster
35 Auburn S/C convertible
38 Chrysler convertible coupe
64 Lincoln convertible
66 Buick Riviera Gran Sport
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#369533 - 08/14/06 12:01 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: Barry Wolk]
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R W Burgess
Long Time Member
Registered: 06/13/02
Posts: 10080
Loc: Warsaw, Va.
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Barry, not trying to rile you here. We're just throwing ideas at you.
A web site is a poor device to cure mechanical problems such as yours.
I could add all kinds of ideas here, but not having driven your tow truck would leave me at a disadvantage. My pickup is a regular 2 wheel drive pickup, so I have no experience with a dually. That being said, and considering that I drive a Commercial Truck Trailer(18 wheeler) everyday, I still know what swaying and tail wagging is. Even my loaded tanker trailer can sway when slamming on brakes in a turn in a panic situation. The trailer has been known to swing the back of my tandem tractor at times too. So, in fact a heavy trailer can do strange things to your towing vehicle. Sorry to get long winded here. We all hope you get to the bottom of this handling problem. Your trailer is too pretty to mess up again.
Wayne
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#369534 - 08/14/06 12:02 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: jrbartlett]
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1937hd45
Long Time Member
Registered: 11/01/01
Posts: 5141
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Does the fact that this trailer has three axles vs. the two most have add something to the preload or lack of preload equasion?
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#369536 - 08/14/06 12:21 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: Packard8]
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Barry Wolk
Member
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1146
Loc: Farmington Hills, MI
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Quote:
The only thing I question is the amount of preload on the bars, but even with no preload the bar should not have dropped out.
That's all I've been saying.
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#369537 - 08/14/06 02:24 PM
Re: DISASTERS TEND TO HAPPEN IN THREES
[Re: Barry Wolk]
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Barry Wolk
Member
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 1146
Loc: Farmington Hills, MI
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I went back and re-read the instructions, again and again, and found that I followed them to the letter.
The instructions clearly refute the previous post that said I had the torsion bars too loose. The instructions clearly say that the bars are only meant to be brought level with the ground from their pre-stresses position. The links on my chains are 2" long so snugging it up from 7 links to 6 would have been way beyond what the specs clearly call for.
I measured the parts that I think related to the failure. The round bar is 1 15/32" in diameter. The socket it fits into is 1 9/16" in diameter. When in even slight tension that leaves a gap at the level of the pin of 3/32". The groove on the round bar is 5/16" deep but the pin only intrudes into the cylinder by 1/4". If you deduct 3/32" (the gap between the round bar and it's receiver socket) from the the 1/4" length that the pin protrudes into the socket you get a friction surface of only 5/32", barely over 1/8"! Since the groove of 5/16" coupled with the gap of 3/32" comes to a proper length pin of 13/32" or 5/32" longer than the pin supplied. They could even have added an 1/8" to the pin, keeping it in tension ahainst the groove.
When you think about this pin holding on to the round bar by only 5/32" and the bevel edge of the round bar's mating surface, I believe I can clearly see how the round bar slipped out.
Just to correct an earlier statement, it was the bar on the driver's side that fell out.
My wife brought up the idea that the chain cinch could have failed, dropping the tension off of the bar, allowing the round bar to come out of it's socket. I guess that's a possibility, too. It is only held in place with a set screw. I agree with the previous statement that welding the tensioner in place would be the safe thing to do but the unit is tagged with a statement that welding or altering any parts voids the warranty.
I distinctly remember tightening these bolts before and after loading the hitch. The bolt mentioned is merely a locator bolt, keeping the cinch on the edge of the frame. Its strength comes from being pulled downward into position on the frame by the round bar. The cinch could have loosened up and fallen off leaving the bar without tension.
I also discovered that rotating the round bar about 90° from its intended position will force the pin out of the groove and the groove only covers about 60% of the circumfrence of the roundtube.
I'm trying to envision how a round bar could get 90° off from its intended position I suppose that could have happened in the wild gyrations the trailer was taking. The only thing that's confusing to me is the position of the parts on the highway. I would have expected that if the chain tensioner fell off first it would have been furthest from the wreck and that wasnt the case. However, the tensioner was pretty beat up and could have rolled much further than the round bar slid.
I hope this has been as confusing to you as it has been to me. I'd love to resolve this so I can start sleeping at night again.:(
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Took all these tonight for you.
