Folks from Virginia - write your delegates to squash this modification to the bill. Changes mileage from 250 miles to 50 miles, eliminating those nice drives on Skyline Drive and across the great Commonwealth of Virginia.
House Bill 288:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?061+ful+HB288
Delegate names and addresses are located here:
http://leg1.state.va.us/061/mbr/MBR.HTM
Just found out about this and it will be presented on 11 January.
There are e-mail addresses at the above link as well as mailing addresses.
Please act.

Excerpt from Va. Bill HB288

1. For participation in club activities, exhibits, tours, parades, and similar events; and

2. On the highways of the Commonwealth for the purpose of testing their operation, obtaining repairs or maintenance, transportation to and from events as described in subdivision 1 of this subsection, and for occasional pleasure driving not exceeding 50 miles from the residence of the owner.


If this bill passes I wouldn't be all that concerned, there's an "event" somewhere every night during the driving season, and who knows how far one must drive to "test their operation."
I believe the big concern is using the vehicles for work related travel, to do so would give the impression you're trying to circumvent insurance costs.


We have restrictions in Massachusetts that limit antique vehicles to weekend driving, but with similar exceptions. I've yet to hear of anyone having a problem with the authorities.

Some laws need to be "bent," and seem to be designed to do so easily.
It's the American way.


(Since my Navy days I always have had a high regard for Virginia's State Troopers, they didn't bust on Sailors like some of the local cops did.)

dagunny, looks like another attempt to divide and conquer. Kill it before it spreads!

Instead of cutting our mileage back to the 50 it originally was, I'd rather see them go after the abusers of the antique plates. Junky shop vehicles, ratty sedans, and beat-to-hell pickups with ladder racks driven to work and wherever else on a daily basis do NOT qualify for antique licensing, yet the DMV continues to issue them to shat like that.

But when I voiced concerns about it to the DMV Commissioner several months back, his reply was that I should notify the local police of any abuses I saw. My reply was "Why not screen the vehicles you're issuing these plates for a little closer?" Never heard anything else back from him.

The fault lies with VADMV. Period.

i am in roanoke,

do you know the name of the delegate who proposed? if i can get a listing of club in va will start from there

thanks,
keith

sparks.vintagecars@gmail.com

Looks like they listened as the new bill has a specific mention of that - "no use back and forth to work or to worksite." The bill doesnt restrict the amount of miles you can put on a vehicle, only the distance from home that you can use it for occasional pleasure use (i.e. not associated with an antique car related activity). The Va Car Club Councils are on top of this and are actively working on it. AACA's Tom Cox of Roanoke Valley Region AACA is once again leading the way. I'll email Tom and have him jump on the forum to provide updates.
Terry

Terry, Listed below is the entire text of Tom's post from the "General Antique Car Forum" at the top of our web site;

Quote:

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HB288 is patroned by Delegate Danny Marshall of the Danville Virginia area. This bill is the result of several years of abuse of the antique tag statutes...mostly by non hobbyists. During the past year there have been no less than three articles in major newspapers in VA referencing clunkers and work trucks sporting antique tags. This has become a real public relations problem for true hobbyists, with hundreds of complaints being lodged with legislators and Virginia DMV. Legislation to curb the abuse was inevitable. We hope to influence the current legislation.

During the past ten years in Virginia, we have secured exemption from emissions testing and roadside emissions smog dogs,we have been afforded tax exempt status, and we have secured the right to use vehicles registered as antique for pleasure use. Antiques also enjoy exemption from annual Virginia safety inspections, and benefit from a one time registration fee of $10.00.
It is not surprising that many would try to enjoy the many benefits we have been afforded in Virginia. Unfortunately they are often old work trucks with ladder racks or station wagons with house painting supplies hanging out of them.

The original antique vehicle statutes did NOT include any provision for pleasure use. It ONLY provided for use in parades, mechanical testing, and club functions.

About five years ago, VA hobbyists lobbied DMV and the legislature to include a pleasure use provision, so we could go get an ice cream on sunday etc. without fear of bieng pulled over. I was at those meetings with DMV.

It was an uphill battle, but they finaly agreed to give us a fifty mile radius of use for pleasure. We all agreed to that at the time. However, during the General Assembly session, a legislator friend,Delegate Richard Cranwell, amended the statute in a late night floor manuver. Dick did this without any prompting from me or anyone else. It was great to have 250 miles instead of 50. Although , either limitation is difficult to enforce.

I discussed this recent bill HB288 with Delegate Marshall prior to it's public filing several weeks ago. Originally this bill was going to remove our exemption from annual safety inspections, increase the fee for registration to at least $50.00, increase the eligible age upward from 25 years, and to require proof that the car was collectible.

Delegate Marshall and DMV were consulted. The Delegate agreed to leave those provisions out of the bill as presented. However, DMV and the Delegate both felt something needed to be done to limit the abuse of the tags, and they were going to change the statute language to accentuate the prohibition on work use of any vehicle with antique registration. They also feel the pleasure use limit should be reduced back to 50 miles. The bill also includes some housekeeping issues which specify certain details about antique year of manufacture plates.

As hobbyists we should embrace the tightening of restrictions on work related use of our tags. They were intended for hobby use...not work trucks or daily drivers. If we do not support this part of the bill, we risk having photos passed out to legislators showing junk vehicles and work trucks wearing our tags. The results could be far worse than you might think.

With regard to the mileage limit on pleasure use, we should lobby to have that maintained at its present level, but should also be ready to compromise to 150 or 100 miles. Either way it will still be difficult to prevent us from driving where we wish for pleasure use as there is always a hobby related event we could be going to.
Just be polite in your approach to lobbying your representatives and you will be surprised at the potential good results. Good diplomacy and action on the part of AACA members brought us many of the benefits we enjoy here in VA. While it may not be true in other States, most Virgnia legislators have been advocates for the hobby. We would not have all the benefits we currently enjoy if they had not listened and we had not spoken.
All Virgnia AACA Region Presidents were advised of the coming of this bill a couple of weeks ago. They have also been encouraged to discuss it with their members and act accordingly.
Thanks

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I have a question : what if the antique vehicle is the only daily the person has, for whatever reason?
Are they then saying it is limited or can you register that vehicle as a regular driver?

I ask because I have one car that is my daily and it is 49 going on 50. So where would this leave me were I to live in Virginia? The implications to the poor and disabled / handicapped are obvious.

Randall,

Most antique INSURERS will not give you coverage unless you provide proof that you have a non-antique ("daily driver") registered in your name.

It seems to me that the present bill in question (and I'm not saying it's "good" or "bad"...) is intended to limit the ABUSE of the Antique plate privilege.

I'm sure we've all seen vehicles that fall into the above category.


In PA, the restrictions on the "Antique" plate are pretty clear...however, there is also a "Classic" plate, with different limitations/qualifications, which (I think) muddies the water...( Not to mention starting the whole "Classic" / "Antique" semantic battle )

If someone has an antique that they are going to drive beyond the limitations of their state's historic tag provision, they should probably do the honorable thing, and put regular plates on it.

This is one reason I do not have "antique" tags on any of my iron right now...frankly, most of my operable antiques are not driven outside the limitations that would apply to an "Antique" plate, but I'd rather not have the limitation hanging over my head, if I want to exercise the vehicle more than once a week.

I do have two "Regular drivers" registered in my name, and functional.

And, while we're on the subject, with regard to pick-up and larger
antique trucks in PA: it IS absolutely against the PA Antique tag rules to use said truck to carry any payload in the rear body...that includes hauling home a couple of bags of peat moss from Home Depot, in the back of your Antique-tagged truck. If the cops catch you, they can throw the book at you.
( Not saying I like this, but "it's the law"... )

When I was living in MD (20-years ago), the antique tag process/restrictions were pretty mild; no photos, no annual inspection (or safety inspection); the expectation was that "the vehicle is at least 25 years old, and is maintained in an original or restored condition, in safe operating order, and is maintained primarily for parades, shows, and occasional pleaure use.
It is not intended for the primary transportation of persons or goods over Maryland roads." That might be paraprhased a bit, but there was no mileage limitation.

There's a lot of room for potential absue there...I wouldn't be surprised if MD has tightened-up their Antique tag rules since then...


Just my $.02 /worth...

In NY you cant get antique insurance unless you have an another daily driver. Historical insurance/plates were not /are not designed for daily drivers.

Quote:

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I have a question : what if the antique vehicle is the only daily the person has, for whatever reason?
Are they then saying it is limited or can you register that vehicle as a regular driver?

I ask because I have one car that is my daily and it is 49 going on 50. So where would this leave me were I to live in Virginia? The implications to the poor and disabled / handicapped are obvious.

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Yes I see the problem. So if you have an antique and it is what you have to use, you list it under the standard plate. I was forgetting this was a hobby bill! I have an 81 Chevy listed as a regular truck, and my Cadillac. In Colorado we are not so encumbered. But I am sure the time will come when we are, and then I will simply switch to more expensive insurance to cover my liability only etc, and hope it passes emission standards. Thanks for the answer!

Randall, Frank is correct. If you're using the vehicle as a daily driver, you register it as such with the state and have a yearly inspection as any other highway vehicle.

Wayne

Quote:

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And, while we're on the subject, with regard to pick-up and larger
antique trucks in PA: it IS absolutely against the PA Antique tag rules to use said truck to carry any payload in the rear body...that includes hauling home a couple of bags of peat moss from Home Depot, in the back of your Antique-tagged truck. If the cops catch you, they can throw the book at you.
( Not saying I like this, but "it's the law"... )

---

"Throwing the book at you" in PA 15 years ago cost $500.00, as a friend of mine found out hauling his picnic table to his uncle's house. It's probably a bigger fine today.

I knew of someone who was pulled over for having a cooler in the back of his 1930's truck. It took some time for him to talk himself out of the fine, even though the cooler was full of ice and pop, he was carrying the pre-registration form with him for the show he was driving to, and the cooler was painted to match the truck making it part of the display! In PA the same fine would apply if you simply show up in the same place twice in one week (limit of one leisure trip per week by law), or if you happen to work where you park the car (commuting is not considered leisure driving).

Virginia should be able to enforce antique plate truck abuse without resorting to silly measurement of driving radii. Nobody hauls paint and ladders for fun/recreation, and he who pretends to will surely pretend to be on a 3 mile trip to the Dairy Queen as well.

Posted her per Wayne's request.

This is a compilation of mine and other Model T'ers views:

Just because the current regulations are not enforced is not a reason to change the existing regulations. That's laziness on the officials and enforcement personnel.

If the 50 mile limit is passed and enforced, I wonder how that will impact tourism in Virginia? On our recent Model T national tour in Harrisonburg Virginia, we brought in appx 1000 people for a week. Let's say that they spend an average of $1000-$2000 for a family (food, lodging, fuel, historic visits, etc). Do the math. How many car clubs are there? How many tours? Hey guess what? That means fewer funds for election campaigns of those sponsoring the bills (read delegates).

Why even put a limit on pleasure driving? That eliminates many people from taking a multi-day drive through Virginia and neighboring states, promoting the antique car hobby, if they don't belong to a club. Oh, I see ? this bill will enforce more joining the AACA and other clubs. Hmmmm. Perhaps the clubs may think they have some protection with a clubs event clause, but is a disservice to John Q Public. That clause will be the next eliminated.

Enter the law. Now a police officer in VA will pull over an antique car and fine the driver if his operator's license address is more than 50 miles from the point of pulling over the car! Hey, I can see law enforcement officers pulling over ALL antique cars in VA, just to see if they are 50 miles from home and need a ticket. But, then again, in VA you can be ticketed for having a radar detector in you car!
While a small minority may be abusing the antique license plate the vast majority of antique car owners takes pride and accepts the responsibility that goes along with it. Punishing all for the acts of a few is the exact thinking that ends up limiting individual rights as government encroaches on our freedoms.
One major complaint of the proposed amendment is the limitation of a 50 mile radius of one?s home. What if I trailer my vehicle to another state to take a drive? Even the 250 mile limit is bad if the state is over 250 miles distant. Technically, if I do this as a private citizen with no event, I cannot drive my car. This is just plain wrong. It also cuts down on tourism going to other states.
What is a license plate? It is, in fact, a tax or actual proof that you paid your tax. Truck drivers pay more because they use the roads more. The proposed amendment reads to me that there will be two choices, either break the law a few times a year or pay full tax on a car that I take out a few times a year.
To address full use plates on antique cars: If full inspections are required, who is going to pull a wheel of the rear of a Model T? Do they have wheel pullers? Do garages have mechanics trained in driving a car into the shop and up on the racks? They will do more damage then good. Does your antique insurance cover others with no antique driving experience driving your car? Remember California in the 60?s? Virginia does not need that.
Making the current laws more restrictive will not stop the abusers; it will only limit the usage of the law abiding, responsible antique car owner. This is an amendment that will only restrict the many in an ill-fated attempt to punish the few. Whoa ? sounds like gun control.
I seriously think you should find a delegate that will well represent the antique car owners if you are going to try and pass legislation that will effect many.

Tony Cimorelli
Director and Webmaster
Model T Ford Club International

Thanks Tony. That'll help keep everyone on the same thread.

Wayne

Quote:

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Do garages have mechanics trained in driving a car into the shop and up on the racks? They will do more damage then good.

---

Definately can relate to that one!! Dad had two igntion switches broken because the mechanic tried twisting it to the start position. Both times Dad had to go out, gently turn the key to the postion and mash the starter button on the firewall with his foot.

dagunny,

We have several friends here in W. Va. that are members of the Model T Ford Club International and the Mountain State T Club, one of which is Doy Maston, that go on most of the tours. They have shared stories of people who not only drive their T's on the tour, but drive them many miles to the tour as well. What would Virginia do about those cars and drivers? They for sure would be more than fifty miles from home. Even going to a sanctioned event who wants to be hassled by the cops when you really are not doing anything wrong?

Doy's wife Betty has not been in the best of health for many years. But AACA and Model T events are still fun for her. It would upset her to be pulled over to check how far from home they were.

Tony,
Just to clear up any misconceptions regarding your comment "I seriously think you should find a delegate that will well represent the antique car owners if you are going to try and pass legislation that will effect many." ...

Delegate Marshall did not act on behalf of anyone in the Antique car hobby...least of all me. He acted on the complaints of his constituents about junky old cars and trucks wearing antique tags, while being exempt from inspections and paying taxes. Fortunately, he did re-think more serious restrictions that were contemplated, and we as hobbyists have the right to influence those restrictions left in the bill.

I rarely take credit for anything since all the legislative initiatives I have worked on over the past thirteen years have been full of old fashioned AACA teamwork. However, I am the guilty one who sought out legislators and initiated action to gain some pleasure use provision for our cars in our state where none was extant at the time. I would hardly seek out a delegate to put forth legislation repealing that which I and others worked long and hard to accomplish. Gaining any pleasure use provision in our state was not easy.

While our rights to drive our cars for club functions, parades, and mechanical testing are unaffected, I encourage everyone to politely engage their representatives to request that they back away from reducing our pleasure usage limitations from the current 250 miles, while supporting the work usage restrictions.
No limitations at all and covering all potential situations would be ideal, but not all our wishes are politically realistic.
Thanks,
Tom Cox
President Southwest Virginia Car Council
Member Roanoke Valley Region AACA, Tidewater Region AACA

Get used to this, every year that goes by produces another load of wrecks that escaped the crusher and you, as a club consider equal to a Duesenberg or Thomas Flyer.

can i ask a question? how wide spread is the antique plate abuse?is there a number?sounds like the reps are killing a fly with a bazoka.the answers are very simple.one as i said what does 50 miles do to stop the abuse....nothing.that really shouldnt be in the bill.its a way of doing away with antique plates in installments.what has dmv done to limit antique plates to only those intitled.if you are exempt from inspections then maybe the dmv should inspect at the time of fist registration..just to say yes this car is covered.as i said you made it a violation to use your antique plate truck as a hauler.also i pay the state every year for my registration and inspection so there is no loss to them.if i get into an accident the insurrance co. has to deal with it.the insurance company WILL step in if this gets to be a problem

GUYS! GUYS!
As I see this issue it's all about Taxes,More Control & Power,and abuse of "Antique" plate status.
The more laws they pass the more control & Power these lawmakers give themselves & the more fees and taxes the state gets!!!
If they allow you to drive unlimited mileage with a "Standard" plate on an old car...but only 50 miles with "Antique" plates ...What is the real difference here??? The cost of the yearly registration fee Vs. the cost of a one time "Antique" registration fee...and state safety inspection +emission fees!!! More money in the state's pockets!!!
The State Lawmakers want more money out of you!!! They also want the fines for those who violate their nutty rules!!! The more rules...the more fines...More money for the lawmakers to spend on their pet projects!!!
In the end it's all about the money!!!
Lawmakers also like control & power!!!
The more Laws they make...the more power they are giving themselves...and taking away from you!!! Lawmakers love more power!!!
OH...And let's not forget the State Insurance lobby!!! They too want more money out of you!!!
They don't like our cheap "Antique Insurance"!!!
I say they should raise the fees,if that is what they really want to do, and let you drive as much as your insurance co will permit you drive!!!
Has anyone really explained the real reason for the 50-100-250 mile limits??? Are our old cars really beating-up the State's roads more if we drive more than 50-250 miles to and from a car event??? Do we have more accidents than "Regular" drivers???
Are our cars unsafe???

IT'S ALL ABOUT TAX MONEY & FEES !!!
DON"T LET THEM FOOL YOU!!!

And in the end...
IT"S ALL ABOUT CONTROL & POWER!!!

Arnold Schwartzinegger (Calif Gov.) was just in a motorcycle accident last weekend...
It was later found that he does not have a motorcycle licence!!! NEVER HAD ONE!!! (Do you really think he will get a traffic fine???)

In Philadelphia last year City Councilman Angel Ortiz was caught driving without a drivers licence!!!
A local newspaper later found that he has been driving everyday for 25 years without a drivers licence! He has NEVER HAD a drivers licence!!!
Never took the State drivers test!!!
What did PA. do to him????
NOTHING!!!
In Fact...He was Just re-elected!!!
What do you think would have happened if you,or I would have been caught doing what he did???
We would still be in a PA jail !!!
Laws are made to control the people!!!
Lawmakers feel that the laws don't apply to them as they are above the law!!! It's only for the "Regular Little People"

The Lawmakers want us to feel like they are doing us a favor by letting us drive 250 miles instead of only 50 ...
That way we will remember them next election day!!!
After all they are "Working" for us as "Public Servents"....

YOU Don't believe this???
Just ask Arnold or Angel Ortiz !!!
It Is all about Tax money!!!
It Is all about Power & Control!!!

As a side note to my above post I thought you might be interested in several new laws that were put on the books in the Township in Pa where I have been living for 35 years...



By local ordinance I am not permitted to work on my own cars in my own driveway!!!

I can only park three cars in my driveway!!!
(It's 110 foot long + has a 40X40 parking area)

I cannot build a new garage for my Antique Cars...And I cannot park them in my own driveway!!! (I have 3/4 acre with plenty of room!

I can no longer hang my laundry out on a clothes line to air dry!!! (Un-sightly)

I can no longer burn charcoal in my BBQ Grill!!! (Only Gas!!)

I can no longer burn wood logs in my fireplace!
(Ony Gas Logs Again!!!)

I can no longer have a TV antennae on my house!
(Bet the cable co had something to do with this!!!)

I cannot cut my lawn until 12:00 Noon on weekends!!!

No leaf blowers!!!

I cannot have a hottub/spa in my back yard...

I cannot park my boat (24') in my driveway or yard!!!
(I have 3/4 acre!!!)

No outdoor gas firepits!!!

I cannot repair my own plumbing!!!

I cannot do any electrical work!!!

I need a permit for my Burg+Fire Alarm system!

No seperate garages!!!

No Garden Sheds...

No swing sets...

No kiddie pools!!!

Need permit to paint my house!!!

GUESS WHAT!!!
I DO MOST OF THE ABOVE ANYWAY!!!

THIS IS THE USA...NOT THE OLD USSR!!!
The lawmakers are turning ME into a
"Lawbreaker!!!"
You really don't appreciate the Freedoms you have until someone takes one away from you!!!
I could do all of the above when I first moved here !!!
FIGHT BACK!!!
May God Bless America!!!Land of the Once Free!

thank you silverghost.it is about power and money.you will find that the answer to problem was simple because the real power[the insurance company]would have stepped in if this was a real problem.they would crack down .if my insurance company allows me 2500 miles why would the state beconcerned about a sunday drive.instead of of doing underhanded stuff just do what you intend to[collect more money]i pay my antique car registration every year[not 2 years like my car].i still have my car inspected.[i will get into that later]in other words new york gets their money so they dont bust our chops[yet]

Just so no one thinks Danny Marshall is a demon out to get us, he IS an enthusiast himself. Races at VIR frequently and is competitive in SCCA.

I doubt he had to answer many constituent complaints about this thing, as a drive thru Danville will turn up plenty of blatant abuses of the antique plate laws. I can guarantee Danny saw them and decided to act. He's not anti-old car- he shows up at cruise nights here often- but I'll admit I was unaware of this legislation.

BUT... I will say that certain members of our local law enforcement have a woody for car people. They are known to hang out at the exits of a couple of the cruise nights, basically lying in wait for the first car that comes out without its lights on or some other silly crap like that. I'd surmise they had more than a little to do with this legislation.

As I stated earlier, the blame for the abuse lies squarely with VADMV for not screening antique plate applications closer. They, however, would rather shift the complaint to law enforcement than grab their own bull by the horns.

You just have to wonder what the guys that got the "Antique" plates started back in the 1950's have to say about this. You can't deny the fact that claiming that 25 year old rolling wrecks with "antique" plates may put an end to this hobby as we used to know it. They have thinned the ranks of PreWar cars at shows, now this may end touring. Does Virginia have special Hot Rod or Street Rod plates, maybe there is a way to keep driving your PreWar car?