I judged at a show yesterday. In the class I judged (sports cars) , several cars did not have the hood or convertible top up. Several owners were present and we asked if they would open the hood for judging which wasn't a problem. Many of the folks were not AACA members and were not familiar with the judging rules. On the instruction of my senior judge I opend several hoods when owners were not present. My question is, is this correct for a judge to do? Or do you take the 40 points off for not having the hood up?

The Team Captain is supposed to open the hoods, unless they are unable to do so. I have on more than one occasion had someone else open a hood because I am only 5'5" and have tendon damage in my right elbow which I have broken twice. And some of the hoods/vehicles could have been damaged if I lost control of the hood. Some of them are very heavy or awkward to handle. I would rather let someone stronger/taller than me open/close a hood. I feel that common sense should apply if the rule endangers the condition of a vehicle. I am sure the owners would agree.

If a hood/trunk cannot be opened, top put up etc. then you must deduct the maximum points for that component since it cannot be judged. There are exceptions like batteries that are under seats etc. WE do not remove anything to see something else.

If the owner is present is it always best to ask them to open hoods, trunks and doors.

Whoa...you are actually saying, if a car does not have the hood up or top up, the judges have the right to do open things up!?! I thought judges never to touch the cars in such a way?? If he hood and top are not open or up...move on, and deduct the points. The owner should know what the rules are at an AACA event.
Where is the liabilty if some judge tried to put a manual top up, does not know the correct procedure and rips a nice hole in the top. Same goes with the hood...I can not believe a judge would attempt to open the hood of a car when the owner is not present!

Am I missing something here??

We did not attempt to raise convertiable tops, just deducted as we could not inspect them. We did ask owners to open hoods as well. Maybe it was a mistake.

In the absence of the owner the Team Captain can open the hood. The Interior Judge can open doors to judge the interior. We do not put tops up.

Sometimes it is raining, or the documentation is in the trunk and they don't want it stolen or damaged, and other judges/or an admin. worker will leave the hood down and the trunk closed to prevent damage. One judge at the Hornets Nest Region show this year gave me the keys to his car to do that. We had a safe place to hide the key when we were done.



Yes, we do when it is necessary. All vehicles are treated with the utmost respect and care.



As I stated above sometimes there is a good reason. If the owner leaves the hood down, trunk down, locks the doors and leaves (as happened a couple years ago at Heshey in the rain) we did disqualify the car. We had no choice. Did not want to do that since it was a nice car but we had no choice. No one knew where the owner had gone. We finished the class and walked back to see if he/she had come back maybe from a restroom run. No one had seen them so we struck through the judging sheet and put a note about what had gone on so that Admin. knew the car had not been missed and that we had tried twice to judge it.



Not an issue since we do not put tops up. We just deduct points as if it was not there. Trust me, I have had to ask a few owners to put the top up, especially if it was their first AACA show. So that means they did not know the rules. They were used to local shows where they tend to show them in good weather with the tops down.

In judging school, which we must attend once per year, we are told that Team Captains can do that. I would never attempt to open a hood that I could not safely handle. I have in the past asked another team member to do that to protect the vehicle.



Only that you have not attended a judges training class. Which every owner that can should do. It is very interesting and informative, and well worth the time to do. CJE's are also something that owners can attend. None of the classes cost anything and you get a free Judges Guidebook at the first one you go to. I call that a bargain.

I think there's a difference here. Shop Rat is talking about national meets. What regions do on their local shows is their business. As for AACA judging procedures, that only applies to national meets. You can't show a vehicle at an AACA national meet unless you're an AACA member. If a local region chooses to follow AACA national judging guidelines at their local shows, that's their option, but it is not required.

That is correct. I honestly missed this in the original thread.
"Many of the folks were not AACA members"

I thought he was talking about the AACA meet at Cleveland.

Because of our training with the AACA Bill and I found it hard to judge at local shows where the standards are so different. So we stopped judging at local shows.

To add to that, that's why we don't show our vehicles at a lot of local shows because of the lower standards or lack of. Usually we'll do a cruise night, or if we do go to a show it is usually where the national winners are kept separate. That way we're not taking anything away from anyone else, and we're not being misjudged.

I'm just surprised…wasn't there discussion on here, like last year, about judges using bumpers to help them get up from judging undercarriages and how that was such a no-no...and now we have a judge opening up hoods.

I keep picturing my Father's 35 Ford…and how you had to be so careful not to hit and scratch the head lights. Oh well...

There is a dfferance in opening the hood or door to perform the duty of a judge and being disrespectful of the vehicle and it's owner by using the car as a leaning post, getting up or down aid, etc.

Also, the team captain will usally try to have the owner open doors, sometime the owner will tell him/her to go ahead and open it. At the AACA National meets, the hood is suppose to already be up but sometimes it isn't due to the onwer forgot, weather, etc. In the case of the hood, there is 100 points there thay can't be judged if it isn't open. Again, opening and closing is done carefully if the judging team has to do it.

Yes, I remember that discussion and that is the case. Judges should not lean on, enter or otherwise touch the vehicles. We are to see with our eyes and not our hands. The exceptions are the hood and the doors if the owner is not there. If the trunk is not locked we can open that also. If it is locked deductions will be taken. The owner should always be given the opportunity to open hoods, trunks and doors. Even if the hood and trunk are open the owner should still be asked if they would prefer to open the doors for the interior judge. MANY times they tell us it is fine for the interior judge to open it.

If an owner does not want their vehicle touched at all by judges in any way then they need to stay with that vehicle until the judging is complete. There are owners that unlock the car and leave to go look at other cars.

AACA has insurance incase of accidental damage. It is a calulated risk on everyone's part to be at a show no matter why you are there. Most judges are/were vehicle owners themselves. They are careful around other people's vehicles.




AACA shows are different in so many ways from local shows. We do have high standards about how things are done and by whom.

I have been judging since Sept. 1990. In all that time I have never been on a team where any damaged was done to a vehicle that our teams judged. I feel that most people can say the same.

Just wondering, if the top is down you deduct max. points because you can't see it. BUT if the car has hideaway headlights that are not turned out you don't deduct ANY points because you can't see them. If the battery is under the floorboard you don't deduct because you can't see it? So, where is the continuity?

Top is normally up, head lamps are normally closed, battery is normally hidden. Not an answer, just a guess on logic. Of course the hood and trunk are normally closed. Oh well never mind......Bob

The simple answer is, we do not remove one item to see another (batteries under floorboards), we do not open glove boxes to see what the interior of it is like, we are not allowed to ask the owner to start the vehicle to check hide-away headlights or any other feature (ie. radios, self storing tops etc.).

In a way it is not fair because a car with regular headlamps will have them judged. A car with hide-away headlamps could have Halogen headlamps (a mandatory 10 point deduction) and get away with it.

The only fair thing to do is get the rules changed by going to the committee and pleading the case of fair for one should be fair for all.

at the local club level unless top is up and hood/trunk open car is not judged.

Susan, with the headlights, I'd leave it what it is. If you change the rules to dictate a vehicle with hideaway headlights, then do you hold cars with 4 headlights to a higher or lower standard than a vehicle with two headlights???

As Doug already mentions, there are cars with batteries exposed, unexposed, leaf spring covers, etc.

....I'd leave it what it is.

Having judged at 100's of local shows (and have served as Chief Judge in many of them), I NEVER open a hood, trunk or raise a top if it is down. I also instruct our judges not to touch the car with the exception of opening a door and that only applies to the interior judge. If a car's hood or trunk isn't open or top is down and I can't find the owner, the car loses the points for that section.

We announce over and over that hoods, trunks and tops should be up - if the owners choose to ignore that, they lose points.

I'm also wondering what happens in the case of a car with no convertible top, delivered only with a hardtop, that is being shown without ANY top. Do you deduct max. points for this too? To me, it is absolutely absurd to not require hidden headlights to be opened, power antennas up, etc. JUST like a convertible top should be up. I agree with other statements here, a judge should never open anything but a door.

Since the car left the factory with a top and since the car is being judged against how it left the factory, I would say it loses max points for having no top at the show

Bob

It really has never seemed quite fair, since they changed the rule about Halogen headlights. It used to be 5 points per headlight for Halogens. Then a few folks with four of them felt that they got hit too hard at 20 points. The committee agreed with them and made it a mandatory 10 points no matter how many someone had. How is that more fair to the guy with one vs. the guy with four (and yes I have seen that situation)? My vote would be to take 3 points off per headlight for Halogens for a total of no more than 12 points if someone had four headlights.



I am not advocating that it be changed, just that is what it will take to make it fair for all concerned.

The one true thing is that this is a HOBBY, it is not life and death.

AACA set up the rules. We obey them as written. As I stated before, if an owner does not want anyone touching the car they should make sure they are with the car at all times until the juding team has finished judging their car.

When they unlock the car and walk away, and stay away, we follow the rules and judge the car. If the owner left a message to not open the hood, trunk or doors that would be honored. It is still their vehicle and they make the rules about what happens at a show to that vehicle. But they better be ready to not get an award.

The judging manual now states that notes must be left behind if you sneak off for a crab cake!? Granted...I know what is expected when I show a car at an AACA event, but seeing some of the questions that have been posted here about a person's first time showing...I wonder... what about the first time person...with his million dollar ride, had the hood down...takes off for a pile of fries to come back to find someone when ahead an opened the car up. Hmmm..I can just imagine the feelings there. I still can't imagine a judge would go ahead and touch another person's car in such a way.

Yes...I have never been to a judging school...but I don't have to go to a class to know, you don't go fiddling around another person's car trying to open a hood...be it a local AACA event or a national AACA event.

Really...I'm a VW guy, would you want me, as a potential head judge, try to figure out how to open your hood? One of my cars is a two person operation...I can just imagine someone just yanking and yanking on the release, trying to get the hood to "pop." It ain't going to happen! You can go to a slew of classes...is it really going to give you the know how on the proper technique on opening the countless number of hood releases out there?

I was just wondering....is this all stated in the Judges Guidelines somewhere? I scanned them and didn't see anything that states: "when you come upon a car this does not have hood or top up, the head judge will then proceed to open such things?"

Again...I know the rules and have my stuff open and up. I'm just trying to clear some "mud"

Please re-read this: If the owner left a message to not open the hood, trunk or doors that would be honored.

I did not say that the judging manual states that notes must be left behind. I said IF a note was left the team would go by what it said. In my opinion the owner has the responsibility to be there or make sure that the team knows, either by a note or asking the neighboring owner to let us know, that they had to leave and will or will not be returning. That is just common sense. If they plan to come right back we will either go judge another car or give them a chance to come back within a reasonable time for the errand they went on. They do not get to make a "bathroom run" and come back three hours later with a wagon full of parts and a crab cake sandwich. Unless they brought a crab cake sandwich with mayo for me.

For eighteen years I have sat in a judging school once a year, and a CJE every year (sometimes two) and been told that Team Captains, in the absence of the owner, can open hoods and trunks and that the interior judge can open doors. I didn't make the rules I just go by them.

Again, any owner that objects to that should stay with their car until the judging team has finished with it. They all know when judging starts and they see the Team Captain verifying which owners/cars are there and who is not to report back to Admin.




You should go. It is FREE. You get a copy of the Judging Guidelines. What a deal!!



It has been part of the judge's training class for at least eighteen years. Probably longer.



And that is what every owner should do if at all possible. We all understand that bad weather dictates that hoods and trunks be down to protect the car. As the Team Captain I went from car to car at Hershey, I think the last year it was on the lot by the stadium, a couple years ago before the judging started and told the owners to keep the hoods/trunks down until we got to their car. To wait and only raise each one just enough for the judges to peak under and see what they needed to. The owners were very grateful that I told them that in advance. As luck would have it the rain stopped and we got the vehicles judged with no problems.

The guy that wrote the original question had been at a local show. Here we are talking about AACA rules which are different. Local shows have people judge cars with little or no training at all. The folks that judge at AACA shows at least have been through a training class and an apprentice class before they ever are on a team. They are placed on teams to start out with that have several experienced judges to help train them. They don't just turn a group of newly trained people loose on the show field.

shoprat, where dammed if we do and dammed if we dont. A new member came to me last week and complaned that the judgeing team at Hershey gave a first to a car that he thought should not have rec. even a 3ed. He told me that the teams knew the owner and thats why he got a first.He said he knew this because he saw the main guy (his words)talking to the owner and shaking his hand. took me twenty min. to explane that we are told to think the owner, and introduce our self and just because he shook the guys hand didnt mean that they where frends. Put your judges hat on and some one told me the average person sees judge as expert, I say we are like gold fish in a bowl,everybody is watching.

wj, everything you put is true. I was always told that owners, especially the first time people, are "sweating bullets". That we must not point at cars, because they can take it the wrong way. A judge saw an awesome feature and pointed it out and the owner is freaking out wondering what was wrong with that part. They will run to that spot and look and look trying to see something that was not meant to show something wrong.

We walk a very fine line when we judge the vehicles. We are the "expert" to those owners when we put that hat and badge on. That is why we must do our level best to be fair and equal from vehicle to vehicle and owner to owner.