If you ever wondered how some dealers mark-up their inventory, check out the recent Owls Head auction results (at ohtm.org)with the prices now at http://connorsmotorcar.com/class.html. Examples:a nice 426 Packard, purchased at the auction for $52,000 (well within the predicted sale of $45-$55,000) several days later is listed with Connors at just shy of $90,000. An average '59 Lincoln (the car that nearly killed Lincoln)convertible, bought for $26,000 listed days later for about $70,000. The cheap stuff? A '62 Lark sold at auction (and remember, there are NO purchaser premiums added at Owls Head -- the auction price is the price) for $4,750, now listed at Connors for about $12,000. This is no big deal --if you're the kind of buyer who doesn't care much about price, or couldn't be botherd to do a little online research. A dealer is entitled to profit for risks taken. Still, compare the "new" items at Connors (I have no idea who the dealer is)with what they were purchased for -- interesting comparisons.

The extra $ must be the restocking fee!

Thank you for adding another totally useless thread to the Forum.

You responded...

Difference between wholesale and retail, just like any other business.

Povertycove,
I've been seeing this for years with the cars I track in the 1960 Buick Registry.

A driver quality 1960 225 convertible brought about $25K at last year's Meadow Brook auction. That same car, with some detailing, is currently offered by Chicago area dealer at $55.9K.

Currently, there is a fairly nice 1960 LeSabre convertible (with 22K miles)in Hemmings for an astounding $60K. The same car was declared sold for approx. $50K at a popular Florida spring auction. However, the interesting thing is that this car was trading a few years ago for under $20K.

About a year ago, a nice driver-quality Invicta Custom coupe (rare bucket seat option) sold at a Scottsdale auction for about $15K. The same car had been on the open market at $18-19K for two years. The dealer that bought it at the auction runs a very high-end ($$) showroom in the Northwest, and marked the same car up to $40K!!. I don't know what they got, but the car was sold within six months.

Within the past year, a 60 Invicta coupe, with potential, was sold on the popular online auction for, as I recall, under $15K. It resurfaced about 6 months later (with fresh paint) at a Texas dealer for an asking price of $30K.

In each case, the mark-up is about 100%. Inflation? Appreciation? Greed? Maybe all of these. I understand the difference between "wholesale" and "retail" but this is much more. As they say, you can ASK anything you want, but it doesn't mean you'll get it.

I think it is a very interesting thread. Its just another reason why people think the rusty pile of junk in their back yard is worth thousands of dollars. They see stuff like this goin gon and think they can get away with it too. One of the reason I bought a 1964 Galaxie 7 years ago was because the car and parts were cheap. Now they are becoming ridiculous too.

It's also a good example of why we're being priced out of our hobby... speculators.... It used to be a nice hobby and we could afford cars and parts.. now??????
The price of some cars is simply ridiculous!!!...
It was car people dealing with car people..now, it's car people dealing with people who are only interested in making a dollar, and not caring about the cars at all...my 2 cents worth..B

On the other hand, people don't have to buy them at these ridiculous prices. Unfortunately, it appears that people are buying them at these ridiculous prices.

A fool and his money and all that...

Same story at www.hymanltd.com. All you need to do is review R & M's auction results over the past 2 years. You will see some of the same cars, albeit with a higher price.

Matt,
I'd be very interested to know what people who do buy are really paying at these dealers in relation to the silly asking prices. Asking is one thing, what are they getting?

You have to remember these cars really have little intrinsic value beyond what a willing buyer is willing to pay. It only takes one buyer who REALLY WANTS a certain car, with the ability to pay the asking price and by definition the car sold for what it was worth...........Bob

For my two cents worth, I'd say that many are paying those prices because they are to lazy to turn a wrench or get their hands dirty restoring a car themselves. They would rather have the status of saying that they paid $150,000 for that Mustang or Chevy SS to their country club friends. I bet many would not even know how to change the battery. I also think that many that have their cars professionally restored want to recoup the price they paid for the restoration. Awhile back a fellow club member got mad at me when I was being honest with an individual about how much he should start the selling price of his 1920's car. This guy got upset because he had over $50,000 in a restoration that would not bring even half of that if he sold it today. Look at the prices at these auctions today, why would anybody in their right mind spend that kind of money when a comparable car can be bought outside the auction arena for a lot less. Remember the old saying " A fool and his money is soon parted".

I read "Sports Car Market" magazine, which is all about auction results. It's often amusing to see the same cars several times a year at auction--the same car over and over not selling. Usually by the third or forth auction, they end up selling for a good deal under what they were bid to in the first auction, but didn't meet reserve. At that point, the seller is just cutting his losses. Mopar Hemis in particular have taken a severe beating and many just make the rounds looking for another sucker. If you bought a $400,000 Hemi at auction, you just took a $220,000 bath.

Other times, you'll see a car change hands at an auction, only to show up at another one a few months later. Maybe it's been detailed, or maybe nothing has been done, but someone (usually a dealer) is trying to make a buck. In reading the magazine, these quick "flips" are almost always a break-even proposition at best, and a big money loser at worst.

I do think of the auction prices are fairly reliable indicators, and there has been a tremendous surge in the popularity of auctioning your car. I don't know that it will ever replace private sales, but more and more hobby cars are going to be going under the gavel in the future. Dealers like this guy and Hyman (who is also grotesquely over priced) usually just hold the cars until they can move them to auction again. If a buyer shows up and is willing to pay somewhere between what they paid and what they're asking, they'll probably sell it. I also think that some of these asking prices reflect the costs of buying it at auction--the premiums, transportation, etc. It always gets passed down the line...

I bet the actual transaction prices are closer to the auction prices, but every so often you get someone who isn't a savvy negotiator or car expert and make a few extra bucks off him.

Just a new spin on this discussion. When any of you gentleman are ready to sell your treasured vehicles, I will be happy to buy them And pay what I think they are worth!

Then mark them up by 100%

Best part of this story is that that exact Packard was for sale at 35k for a few months with no takers prior to the auction! I was seriously thinking of it and am kicking myself now.

As far as this thread being useless, I do not agree - knowing the market conditions may help some family member selling their late husbands or fathers car, but they need to see the good, the bad, and the outrageous.

Just remember guys, if you buy a car to restore, you had better LOVE it no matter what because if you bought it to restore and turn a huge profit, you may be married to that car for a VERY long time. 90% of the time, it will cost you three or four times what the car is worth finished just to restore it. There is nothing wrong with trying to turn a profit, but you had better do your research to see if it will be worth it BEFORE you make the purchase. Then you have to factor in the fluctuation of the economy a little bit. If you are gonna "take it in the shorts", you can at least enjoy the one you bought if it does not sell.

I think this is very interesting, too. It seems that old cars have become like real estate --- sold primarily through a dealer. Except real estate dealers get a 6% markup. Old car dealers typically shoot for 100% or more.

Take a look in Hemmings and count the number of ads from dealers or auction houses versus the number of ads from private sellers (if you can). There must be ten times the number of dealers today than a generation ago.

It is destroying the hobby for ordinary guys who just want to enjoy owning and driving an old car. People in this for investments only are responsible, and dealers with the word "Portfolio" and "Investment" in their names are not helping.

The thing that irks me is the balls some of these dealers have insisting that they know what these cars are worth, and hence pricing them way-way above a reasonable value in the hopes of some wealthy foreign buyer or ignorant rich-dude to come along and pay their exorbitant price. It hurts us all eventually because Grandpa now thinks his 1922 Buick is worth $90,000 or his 1919 Model T is worth $50,000 and refuses any reasonable offer from a young guy who likes old cars but doesn't have a seven-figure portfolio.

What's wrong with a dealer making a reasonable profit, then allowing someone else to make a reasonable profit sometime later? Why jack up a price 100% or 200%?

I will point out that some dealers do try to sell for a reasonable profit and provide a means for someone to find collector cars that otherwise might not be available. You know who are. My beef is with those trying to price gouge and drive prices up by hoarding desirable cars for sale at outrageous prices.

When these dealers have driven the hobbiest out of car collecting, and the investor has moved onto other investments like modern art or tulip bulbs, there may be a glut of old cars on the market at low prices because the heirs want what they can get from Grandpa's Buick. (Or when gasoline is $20 a gallon . . . . ) It's like baseball cards or anything else. The value is determined by the demand. Once it becomes nearly impossible to drive these things anymore, once the majority of old car guys realize they can't afford this hobby and look for something else, once the millionaires go ga-ga over something other than old cars for investments, the prices will fall and dealers will have to get real jobs just like so many Real Estate agents today.

This is America, and you can ask any price you want for what you are selling. It just hurts to see what was a broadly enjoyed hobby taken away from so many guys. It's still a fun hobby, but choices on what we can buy are drastically limited compared to what they used to be.

End of rant Sorry but this strikes a nerve.

I hope Duesenbergs get cheap, I've always wanted one.

I was at the Owls Head Auction. The 27 Packard was a very good #2 car. This car is a full Classic and is in a very good retail, resale color (blue & black). I felt the 52k was under retail of the last few years. This car would not need much to get it's Jr trophy. 65k would not be a bad retail price in today's market, 90k is a stretch, however this allows the dealer to give you FULL retail for a trade. I am sure he knows that 90k will not happen anytime soon. Moneypit, we all have stories of those that get away. Restorer32 I NEED a cheap Duesenburg too. Karl