Hey guys I've been lurking but I'm still checking the board most every day.

I was thinking at my desk and chatting with Brian (CL Reatta) and got thinking, say if you had a hydraulic pressure gauge connected to the master cylinder, would that be able to give you a better warning of a failure?

I figured, say if the pump or relay fails while driving and no more pressure will be built up, a good accumulator will still give you something like 2-6 pumps. The yellow light, then the red light, would indicate the dropping pressure (along with an ECC message), BUT, I figure if you could see the drop in pressure BEFORE the lights came on, you would be able to use the precious few pumps you have left until you lost boost more wisely.

Is there any logic in this? You could use it in troubleshooting too but for most all things the Reatta.net ABS test procedure works great and yeah, there isn't much reason to have a PSI readout.

Upon failure, a pressure switch could close a contact while the engine is running. Any kind of alarm could be triggered by a pressure switch. In fact, any power brake pump failure should have this kind of alarm. Mid 90's Mustangs and some Cadillac's used power steering pump pressure for power brake boost. I have to believe they have a pressure switch of some kind, as an early warning device.

I think the odds are greater that you would wreck because of constantly watching the pressure gauge than you would from brake failure.

You can't watch a pressure switch.

I'm confused here... what Phil (and I) were talking about was like a gauge to tell what the psi was in the brake system
so I am confused by what you mean "you cant watch a pressure switch"

The red light serves that purpose better than any gauge could, just like the the so-called oil "idiot" light is a better alert to a problem than a gauge would be. Steak

I disagree. By the time that light comes on, damage is already being done.

If you will look at the message header, (Re: Pressure gauge for Teves ABS? [Re: F14CRAZY]), I replied to F14 Crazy's post which was concerning a pressure gauge, not a pressure switch. All replies to the forum are not to the last person who posted. Sorry you misunderstood.

I agree, the oil idiot light is just that "For Idiots".
Pressure required for the light to come on is down in the single digits and that to late.

It was just a thought

LOL Phil. You and some of the other younger members here have come up with some very refreshing and innovative ideas and solutions. I love it, even though sometimes my eyeballs roll back in my head when you guys start talking computer and other high-tech stuff. Some of us cut our teeth on cars you could work on by sitting IN the engine compartment. And don't get me started on those 442 wackos.

The "idiot" light has saved many of the engines in some of the clunkers I used to drive when due to leaks or consumption it flashed for a second in a sharp turn or quick start or stop. I was able to pull over and add a quart or three. I wouldn't have noticed a gauge fluctuating. Race cars have an "idiot" light. As far as adding a gauge to the Teves I'm curious as to what "damage" you're refering to. The light comes on when it drops below 1500 psi. That should provide enough stops to get you to the ATM to withdraw the $500 you need to fix it. Steak

That's greast for "Old Klunkers" But that's not what we are talking about.

Read the post Steak. I quoted your statement about the oil idiot light, not the Teves system. And the race cars I'm around have gauges. So does my Reatta.

Hard to say on "idiot" lights in general. Like with one of my old Explorers I once had the low oil light come on (it was full 100 miles before that ). I filled it back up and put like 20k more miles on it with no notice of the time it ran out of oil (BTW I posted on the Explorer forum about it and the admin suggested intake manifold gaskets, and it didn't consume any oil after that). And it did not lose oil pressure.

The yellow and red Teves lights are different than most other idiot lights though. I suppose adding a hydraulic pressure gauge (I have not looked into HOW it would be done) would be a bit similar though to having a true, working gauge instead of a light (those Ford idiot-gauges don't count as gauges ). For Project GS I plan on adding a couple gauges on the pillar and I could make room for a pressure gauge.

The brake warning light is an "idiot" light, as is the ABS, low fuel and all the other warnings that pop up on the screen. They are lifesavers. What are you going to do if the Teves gauge reads lower than normal but not low enough to make the light come on? Drive 10 mph below the speed limit? I don't see the point of anything else that would distract your driving unless it's for a good reason. And what about the constant harping about maintaining originality? Steak

Me harping about originality?

Sorry if I expound your idea into something you didn't intend.
What would it take to grab your attention while you are driving? Do you think a gauge will do that? No, it only reports real-time readings. You might not be watching the dial at the first pressure dip. In fact, by the time you notice the gauge, you may have already expended those precious 2-6 (residual) pumps.

I think your intent was to notify the driver (whoever it might be) at the very first pressure drop. That's what a pressure switch does. Want a gauge AND a pressure switch? Go ahead.

Steak was righ about those idiot lights being, 'lifesavers.' So many have thrown a belt, but the idiot light warned of impending overheating, no PS, or charging problems. Gauges are the ultimate, but you can't constantly watch them all day and night.

I scan my gauges as often as I glance at my speedo. To each his own.

as for the idiot lights.... I had one on my land rover which came on when the brake pads were due to be replaced... the problem was that as son as the light came on, 50 miles later my pads were gone and grinding into my rotors... a lot of help the light was.
I like the ides of the gauge... if after the brake light comes on, you then will notice the brake pressure gauge... that will tell you how many pupms you have left.

To add.... when driving back from georgia with my pump motor going, i would have loved to have a brake pressure gauge... since I didnt know I had no brakes until I had to stop

did anyone answer the original question?

Phil,
Yes there are presure gauges that would work, but most likely at a high cost. I would start looking at Catipiler tools. They have a mountable gauge, but I am not sure about the high end of its scale. We use it on one of our gen sets and the norm operating area is 1,200 PSI. I will look tomarrow for a part number and maybe a price.

I like that idea, too, CL. Know what brings the light on? A pressure switch. Certainly a gauge should be monitored for a more accurate story. By the way, do the kids or wife ever drive it (someone unfamiliar)? You may want to teach them to read your gauges, too.

You would need a gauge in the 2K-2500 range, a banjo fitting, longer banjo bolt and electrical sending unit since you wouldn't want a 2500 psi line running to your dash. If I saw any need for it I would tap into the rear brake curcuit because that one is lost when the Teves loses pressure and would probably show signs of failing first. Don't know. Wherever it originates, its just another place that can spring a leak causing a problem that wasn't there before. Steak

There is a pressure gauge for the Teves!
See the tool in the FSM!
When mounted you would have to cut a hole in the hood then live with limited visability as it would block your view of the road ahead!
Every one should check w/ old, long established Buick Dealers as some have this tool laying back in a dark corner!

Best practice with selecting the appropriate guage scale range is to double the value you expect to monitor, ie: if your system is 2500 psi then a 5000 guage range will provide the best accuracy. A pressure guage is most accurate at 50% of range.
This discussion is getting a tad confusing. It's only the accumulator that sits at the 23-2500 psi range, that's the ABS boost source. The rest of the system is basically at atmospheric otherwise your brakes would be dragging all the time?
Adding additional fittings and hardware just increases the potential for leaks and compromising the whole system. IMHO

I find all this monitoring with gauges and such to be the result of some kind of brake phobia. Keep in mind that if the pump stops running that you still have brakes, just not power assisted brakes.

Yes it is a lot harder to stop without power assist but you can stop. I unplugged the pump and drove about 20 miles here in the hills of Tennessee to see what it was like without power assist and you can stop but you have to press the pedal a lot harder. Maybe me being 6'1" and weighing 270lbs helps.

Ronnie.... Try driving 400 miles in the appalatians without the power assist... its not as easy as you may think, your legs get tired. the fact that there are no back brakes makes it even harder... I would for sure not recommmend driving without power assist to anyone.

What do you think we did before power assist?

I don't recommend anyone drive without power assist unless they have to but I don't think there is a need for extra gadgets and gauges to keep an eye on the condition of the brakes all the time. If we are that paranoid of the brakes maybe we should come up with a system like trains have that will automatically apply the brakes anytime pressure in the brake system drops. It all seems just a little bit overkill to me. The CRT distracts me enough telling me things that I don't really need to know. Having an extra gauge to watch would just be another distraction. That's just my opinion and nothing more.

I live in the mountains of Appalachia (the foothills of the Smokey Mountains) and drove for years in these mountains with cars that had no power brakes before I could afford a car with power brakes.

"What do you think we did before power assist?"

Big difference between non-power brakes and power brakes that have lost vacuum assist.

The bad thing is, that ive drivin cars that have vacuum powered power assist that doesnt work/disconnected. The fact that the reatta is missing the rear brakes and that there is more pressure needed from one's legs to stop in the Teves system is what I am refering to.

I've also driven a short distance without boost from the Teves and I wasn't just standing on the pedal, I was bending the steering wheel due to using it as a handle to apply more pressure than my 140 lbs alone could.

The original post indicates a confidence issue in the highly praised (by some) Reatta original equipment. At least 2 of us on this forum don't have to worry about a pump, a motor, 3 relays, several fuses, 6 solenoids, a pressure switch, a brain and a mile of wire going south in the Appalacians. Steak

Sorry guys, but I dumped a good portion of this thread.

It was really hard to decide where to cut, and I didn't have the tool flexibility to dissect the thread, so this is the result.

Feel free to continue from this point of the conversation.


Oh, and for the record I've experienced the "lost" brakes a few times, and while it certainly was not fun (scary actually); I'd rather stick with having the ABS function than downgrading to a system without.

But wat if yo could have both?

Also a gauge would enable you to see a downward slope in the system. Thus enabeling yo to see a potential issue.

Phill I have not forgot your guage, I will get you the part number and specs.

Why does the ABS on the Reatta have a common brake line to both back wheels? Yet it has a separate solenoid and valve for each rear wheel. I don't see how once the ABS is alerted to a rear wheel lockup it can still provide full braking to the wheel that might not be locking. It would seem like each rear wheel should have it's own line to get the maximum amount of braking in those situations. Steak

I have thought about that several times myself. three lines should = 3 sensors and three solenoids.

When the ABS senses that a wheel is locking does it pulsate that wheel or all wheels? I know that it can't only do one rear wheel (because of the single line) but if a rear locks will the front wheels go into ABS mode? Steak

It treats them as three circuits: left front, right front, and both rear. Each circuit can go into anti-lock mode independently.

I never got a chance to find out using a cafeteria tray. Steak

Huh?

I'm confused myself

Sorry. It probably won't work anyway with ABS, but my son and his friends lock up the brakes on a pair of cafeteria trays and enjoy the complete loss of control. I'll get the instructions if anyone wants them. Steak

And we thought our Teves system was dangerous and needs to be replaced.

Oh, you mean downhill racer on the snow using cafeteria trays?

I'm talking year-round irresponsible behavoir. I asked Junior how it is done. It actually doesn't have anything to do with the service brakes. He says you park a front wheel drive car with the back wheels on a couple of trays then set the parking brake. Then you drive off and do some kind of motorized ice dancing on a wide stretch of road. It's what the people of Florida must do to simulate northern conditions. Steak

This kinda reminds me of a go cart my dad and I made when