Photo taken in the winter in Chicago about 1925.

I'm guessing Cadillac.

Could the driver be the famous fighter Jack Johnson? The photo sort of reminds me of a related story about Johnson. Stude8

Stude8


I think you are right.

Former Michigander Ken Burns did a documentary on him.

Look at this URL, with areference to Jack johnson. same car. Different view.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/01.12.05/blackness-0502.html

...and West seems to be right. Model 30 from 1910 or 1911. Cadillac folks?

He loved automobiles too.

http://www.nd.edu/~joycecol/exhibits/winkexhibit/JohnsonJ.710-18-89.jpg

http://www.first-magazine.net/2008/03/30/jack-johnson/

Hi,
You guys are good - The picture is Jack Johnson (actually, Arthur John Johnson), the best heavyweight boxer of his time. His nickname was the "Galveston Giant". The attached image is Johnson in a 1910 match with Jeffries.
Grandpa

Great photo, neat history.

But, I don't think it's a Cadillac. The leather strap over the hood, and the gas tank behind the seat lead me to believe it's something else. Perhaps a bit larger than a Cadillac also.

Right time period, though.

Respectfully,
Chris

1909 Chalmers Detroit is my guess!

There are a few details that definitively rule it out as Cadillac. Cadillac front axle beams had a bit of a dip right in the middle, whereas this one has a very wide dip. Cadillac never used a radiator badge till some time after the V8 came along. My 1916 type 53 has none, nor has any 4 cyl I have ever seen. The centre of the steering wheel is also distinctly different. And can you imagine Henry Leland allowing a body type like that out the door; it would hardly accord with his purpose in his cars. Ten spokes in the front wheels and twelve at the back was not unique to Cadillac. No chain drive rules out other possibilities, and the proportionate size of the back hubs does not seem adequate for the flange of the full floating drive axles that Cadillac used. Layden is probably pretty right. I have never encountered a Chalmers Detroit, so I do not know. Year would have to be 1909-12 by the look of it.
Ivan Saxton

Looks like a 1909/1910 Model 30 Cadillac Roadster to me with the rear rumble seat removed. I am doubtful that is a gas tank behind the seats and it is possibly some sort of luggage container or luggage. Put a rumble seat behind the driver and it looks like a factory photograph of a 1909/1910 Rumble Seat (Gentleman's Roadster)to me.

The front axle beams have confused me a bit, too, as does the radiator emblem. The double bead line on the front of the hood is what initially led me to believe Cadillac. It could be a large Buick (30 series).

Here's a 3rd shot from the same series. The Chicago Daily News archive lists date as "1910"

West, next time you look at a Cadillac between about 1910 and 1930 with wood wheels, compare the size of the front and rear hubcaps. The rears are much bigger diameter than the fronts because the full floating drive axles are splined into the hubs. Wire wheel versions obviously don't tell the same story because they have to be the same front and rear. That is why Cadillac used the largest size of Buffalo wire wheels, or on the few that had SRB Rudge Whitworth, a size even bigger than the 100mm that Twin Six Packard used. If the car is a Cadillac, it would have to have the wrong front and rear axles, and a similar but incorrect ratiator, or the correct radiator with some badge incorrectly fitted. I don't like the probabilities of that.
Ivan

All,
Here is another image of the car which shows some more details. The series of three pictures were taken in 1910 and not 1925.
Grandpa

Thanks, Ian,
I've seen a few pictures of Buicks with that front axle I-beam circa 1910-11. However, it was also around that time that they went from the round radiator badge to a huge rectangular one. I'm leaning toward Buick, now.

The 1910 Cadillac had a semi-floating rear axle. The Timken full floating axle was introduced in 1911.

Sommeone else said in a post on another thread some months ago that the full floating axle started in 1910 and I was relying on that: but your information could be correct, Merv. The top of the gear lever is less bulbous that that of my 1913 project car. Hendry does not specify when the rear axle changed; but his book is not totally relable in that he missed out one of the three sub-series of the 1926-7 314, which had quite significant differences.
Regards, Ivan Saxton

Ivan I don't think identifying these old cars from photographs of the time is an easy task but I must say you have a good eye for detail. I have had a rethink about identifying it as a Cadillac particularly in view of what you said about the front axle. I was prepared to dismiss it as a distorted photo, however, on further comparison the axle in question has a much wider and deeper dip than the Cadillac that cannot be dismissed as a distorted photo. Do you have any literature on the Kissel Kar in particular a 1910 speedster? From the scant information available to me I think a 1910 Kissel speedster would be pretty close and importantly should have a front axle as per the photo.

Regards Merv

I have only ever seen a couple of Kissels out here, Merv; and they were small sixes of the 1920's and without the distinction of the earlier cars. Then when I went to Reno to look at Harrah's in 1980, there was so much interesting stuff that I ended up walking past cars that I would have spent a day examining minutely if they were out here. And I was supposed to meet Bud Catlet again there on that occasion, but unfortunately that never worked out. Bud had a big Kissel then. But I just have no real knowledge and experience of them. I try to make it clear when I know something definitely as distinct from the matters where I rely on general knowledge and deduction to hopefully jump-start someone else.
What you generally find is that one make of car will carry style of components from one model to the next over a period, unless the principle designer has changed.
Maybe if Peter could insert a section for HCCA prominently right up the top of the forum we might get many more of the people knowledgible about the big early stuff involved, and we would all learn more.
Sorry I am not any help on Kissel, but the scale could be right. Maybe some of the memorabilia people could look at a blow-up of the radiator badge.
Ivan

I own and am currently restoring a 1914 Kissel Semi-Racer. When I first saw the photo in the post it looked very much like a Kissel of 1909 to 1912 vintage, especially the front axle dip. The oval rear gas tank would also be correct for a Kissel semi-racer of this era. Kissel also had a floating rear axle (at least my 1914 does)

I'd go with the Kissel ID

I think Layden is closest with his suggestion of "1909 Chalmers-Detroit." Here's a 1908 photo of a Thomas-Detroit. I was reading that about 1908/9 Thomas-Detroit became Chalmers-Detroit after a partnership shuffle. Check photo closely for same details seen on Jack Johnson's auto: front axle, thin & painted radiator surround, sm. round badge. Note single leather hood strap w/metal guide fitting.
My vote, 1908 Thomas-Detroit.

drwatson,

Couldn't agree more, especially after putting much wear on already dog-eared Standard Catalog.

Here's another image of an '08 Thomas-Detroit, from a postcard.



Given the last few pix, that it's a 1908 Thomas-Detroit is pretty much irrefutable, IMHO.

TG

I love this forum's "never quit" attitude!!! Although I'd like to respectfully argue that it still could be a 1909 Chalmers-Detroit, as Laydon originally said. Chalmers could have kept that axle beam for the first year, no?
Ya'll should be in congress the way you don't go on vacation 'til the job's done.

Uh-oh!

Here's a lineup of '09 Chalmers-Detroits waiting for the start of the automobile parade at the 1909 Glidden Tour in Detroit. Look at all the front axles.

From The Making of Modern Michigan, a great site.

Truth be told, What is it? is one of my favorite things on the web, 'cause it's always such a mind-tease.
And I think a seance with someone channeling Jack Johnson is our only hope.

Let's see...where'd I stash that Ouija Board?
TG

Thanks West...., and Roadmaster for more great period photos.
The backwards hand notation on my "Thomas-Detroit-Snowbird" photo intrigues me. "Snowbird" ??
Was "Snowbird" a special Thomas-Detroit model? Were tire chains the "Snowbird" option? Grandpa's
1st photo in this string shows Jack Johnson sitting in a new open sports car of the period on a snow
covered Chicago Street. Hmmm, "Snowbird", is it a coincidence? TG, did you find the Ouija Board? surely
it'll talk to us now. Date? Make? Model? please.

All,
Here is another image of car no. 105 (another view shown above), which seems to be the same body type as the Jack Johnson car.
Grandpa