Folks,

I'm looking for comments and advice regarding car collector house plans. The Garage Forum seems to be the best section to post this topic.

The graphics/pictures on the website have a few minor issues, so ignore them (like the roof lines). Essentially, is the plan and layout sound? In previous posts, I received comments regarding the good and perils of an attached shop.


http://www.monmouth.com/~friartuck/houseplan/houseplan1.htm

Chris

Couple of things I learned building my house. For the first couple of years a truss roof will lift dramatically in the center of the span. While it's great to be able to rearrange a floor plan, it's not a pretty sight to see your nicely finished drywall separate where walls intersect the ceiling. This is especially true in cold climates where the longitudinal strut is buried in insulation and the roof supports are kept frigid, by design. You might want to consider stick building your roof and using engineered joists to span the large distances in your great room. The trusses would float independent of the rafters and eliminate this problem.

If I were building a house today I would use docksplank floors and turn the entire area under the house into a fireproof vault for cars. I have a friend that's building a home just like that right now.

My entire home is radiant heat. It's self-leveling Gypcrete over wood upstairs and embedded in the lower level concrete floor. There is nothing better. You can stand in front of any window or door in the worst of winter and not feel the cold. That's because radiant heat warms the objects in the room, not the air. It's much healthier for you, too, as there is little dust in the air.

Wood is an excellent insulator so don't plan on radiant heat under carpet or wood, it just doesn't work. Our home is mostly ceramic tile, and excellent medium for heat transfer. Wherever we have wood floors we have baseboard radiant heat. It not convection heat, it's strictly radiant panels of aluminum with extruded passageways for hot water. It doesn't release as much heat as convection heat, but it's not ugly. It looks like an old baseboard. It's less than 1" thick and 6" tall. I used it in continuous fashion, eliminating baseboard moldings.

Here's a picture of it. You can barely tell it's there. It's a little noisy at the beginning of the season but quiets down when there's warm water running through it continuously.



You got me started, now. Tell me when to stop.

Here's something to consider on your hydronic system. Put a thermostat for a zone valve in every room. Your pocketbook will thank you when your utility bills come due.

Use two boilers with an interface instead of one boiler. There are many days when it is smart to fire up a 100,000 btu unit instead of a 200,000 btu unit. Wear and tear is minimized, too.

Get boilers with hot water makers. There are simply water-to-water heat exchangers that sit in the hot water buffer tank required for a floor heat system. I found that one boiler was pretty good at providing domestic hot water but rearranging the pipe work so that the first boiler acts as a pre-heat for boiler #2's domestic water heat exchanger gave me endless hot water with multiple taps going. Nice feature.

Here's a huge lesson I learned about layout of the PEX tubing. NEVER use a "radiator pattern" where the loops simply cross the area multiple times. This may work with electric heat tapes but that pattern will not work with water. Water will give up its heat before it gets to the end of the loop, making an uneven heating pattern.

The "Serpentine loop" is the right way to do it. As an example I did a 22' x 26' room with three loops so that I could control the heat distribution at the manifold, not the thermostat. A serpentine loop starts at the manifold and is secured about 3" off the base of the perimeter of the exterior wallsand 6" everywhere else. The second pass around the room is spaced 6" off of the original perimeter loop on the outside walls and 12" elsewhere. This pattern is used again for the next 5 loops that are working their way towards the center of the room. On the sixth loop the spacing becomes 1 foot apart until you get to the center of the room. At that point you pass the PEX tubing through a fitting that allows a 180° turn without crimping the tubing. This will allow you to work your way back between the original spirals
giving you a 6" spacing where they were 12" apart and a 3" spacing where they were 6" apart. The loop is finished off at the return manifold and the water return to the boiler at the correct temperature. The 3" pattern is only on outside walls, not where they meet other loops, otherwise you'd have hot spots. If you do it right you won't feel a temperature differential.

OK, one more thing. Also concentrate heat in the foyer of the house, the shower floor and the area where your feet rest while on the commode. You'll thank me for that one.

You're going to heat the garage, too, aren't you?

Tell me to stop if you've had enough.

Great comments, Barry. Sounds like a beautiful home.

We like it. Our next home will be an urn.

Back to the PEX tubing. If you're installing it yourself you must have a good helper or an unwinding rig. Since the tubing was wound as it was extruded it will want to curl in that direction. It's best not to force it the other way. I attached my PEX to a 6" x 6" grid typically used for concrete reinforcement. That grid was laid on top of 1" of blue foam board to reject the heat upward instead of into the ground. Just before I poured I took salvaged bricks and spaced the grid 2 1/2" above the insulating board so that the PEX ended up about 1 1/2" below the finished surface of the concrete floor. That makes for the best thermal battery.

Just so you know, radiant heat is very slow to react to temperature fluctuations. If a room gets too hot it will take forever too cool down and the inverse with heating up. Be careful not to try to heat a room too quickly as it will create what is called the "flywheel" effect making it a bit warmer than you would like. Eventually it will even out.

Frank Lloyd used radiant heat in all his homes. Unfortunately, he used copper pipe and it often failed due to movement and from contact with the lye in the concrete eating it away from the outside. Once there was a leak, new water is introduced to the flow, bringing with it fresh oxygen, which ate the copper pipes from the inside. Cross-linked polyvinyl (PEX) has an oxygen barrier and is flexible, giving it a 50 year rating.

On the subject of your garage. It costs very little to build it with taller ceilings. If you're anything like me you'll collect more cars over time and a taller ceiling will allow you to stack cars more easily. I had to bump the ceiling of my garage upward to accommodate this.



You may want to consider ceiling hugging garage door tracks. This, couple with side-car garage door openers gives you much more flexibility in your floor plan.



About your kitchen. I note that you have no soffits. I think that cabinets look funny with a space above. All of our cabinets go to the ceiling, utilizing that wasted space. Also, because I'm tall (6'5") and I do all the cooking (my wife hasn't made 36 meals in 36 years) I decided that the standard 36" countertop heights were not for me. I wanted to make them 42" and got talked down to 40". Most people notice the difference but normal sized people find 40" quite comfortable. All of our bathrooms have 36" counter tops, which everyone loves. That extra 4" really makes a difference.

You might want to reconsider your tankless water heater plan. They consume massive amounts of electricity. You're better off using your boilers for domestic hot water and using a motion detector operated recirculating pump and return loop to bring hot water to the kitchen as you approach. When you leave, the pump shuts off, saving on thermal losses.

Another feature of our home in an elevator. It's a hydraulic unit that services the three levels of our home. Building the shaft costs nothing but space and the car and rails can be added at a later date if you're on a budget. You would not believe the number of uses it has. My in-laws were handicapped, as am I. When my back goes out I can't do stairs safely. My wife had both feet operated on at one time so she would have been cut off from the lower levels of our home for weeks. It was about $15,000, 15 years ago.

Back to your HVAC system. Since you're using radiant you'll need a ducted system for air conditioning. It's actually less expensive to install a full furnace as it is to install an air handler and coils. Hooked up to your fuel supply they become a back-up and it allows you to undersize your radiant system.

Don't make the mistake I did by running the ductwork through the attic. That first blast of air is humid and hot. It also wastes a lot of heat that rises through the ductwork in the winter. Install 2 systems. One for upstairs and one for downstairs. They both have different needs due to solar gain. The lower level unit will be used more for dehumidification than anything else.

Here's an energy tip for everyone. Many people shut off their ac when they leave. That's a mistake. It's the humidity in the air that transfers heat to your skin. Higher temperatures are more tolerable at low humidity, thus reducing your energy bill. Leaving your stat at 80° will dehumidify the house and make your body feel like it's in 75° air. That differential is very expensive to make up.

Back to ductwork. Most installers put duct outlets at floor level and cold air returns at ceiling level. That's exactly the opposite of where you want them to be for cooling. You want cold air to fall into the room from on-high and be returned to the ac unit at floor level. This will eliminate the stratified air common to most homes. For others with a standard ducted forced air heating and cooling the best installation is dual outlets. Open the top and close the bottom for cooling and the reverse for heating.

You might want to consider an indoor hot tub. We've had it in both homes and we love it. People talk about humidity problems. It's just not so. In the winter you want more humidity and during the summer the ac takes it away. We leave it covered when it's not in use so little heat or humidity escapes. personally, I can't for the life of me understand why people in northern climes have outdoor tubs.



If you can afford it, install a stand-by generator. We had a five day power failure and we didn't have to change our lifestyle at all. Ours runs off of natural gas so there's an unending supply. Don't make the same mistake I did, locating it near our bedroom. Although after the first dat it sounded like music to my ears.

You've noted that you're putting in a central vac. Put the outlets closer together than you planned. With furniture in a room, the hose gets real short, real fast.

More later................

Hi- nice house, my only comment would be that I would turn the shop 90 degrees, so that all garage doors are facing the same way. This adds some driveway, but allows greater freedom of moving any one car out of garage. David Coco Winchester Va.

In PM Chris asked about the baseboard heat. Apparently the company was acquired and disappeared. I found a very similar product on another site. The principal is the same except this product is 7" tall and mine is 5". That might just be an advantage.

Baseboard heat panel

What about adding a door into the utility room from the garage so that you can enter the house and wash greezy paws without going way around and through other rooms? Another door at this point would not add that much more cost.

How about a shower at that end of the house?

Folks,

These are some really good comments and I've already posted some revisions. Please recheck the website for the latest. I'm still trying to master the CAD program. I'll try to answer them as I go.

1. The layout with the garage addition perpendicular lends itself to the lot its being built on. I can build wide, just not that deep. Also, I can expand the garage shop to the right and if necessary, do a lean-too in the back of it.

2. I'm still investigating the HVAC options, but agree to disgard the slim line unit idea.

3. Soffits over the kitchen cabinets: Done.

4. Relocated stairway from main floor to basement. There wasn't enough room to locate a stairwell behind the kitchen cabinets. I'm resisting adding a another doorway just to access the utility sink. I don't want garage odors to creep into the house. The one door should suffice.

5. Relocated fireplace to the corner.

6. Two story shop garage addition with high ceilings as Barry suggested.

7. Don't think I need a seperate shower. I can always keep a bath robe and slippers in the utility area and make it to the master bath if I'm that dirty.

8. Hot tub is being considered, but outside. Stay tuned.

Thanks again and stay tuned.

Chris

Bringing this back to the top. I've made more revisions as shown on the website. Keep the comments rolling in.....

Chris

http://www.monmouth.com/~friartuck/houseplan/houseplan1.htm

Can I have that house once it is built. Nice design. What software are you using?

Here's a few suggestions

1) Some building code may require that the garage floor is lower than the house floor so that gasoline vapors have less of a chance getting into the house, I could't tell from your drawings if you accounted for that. At any pont check with your builder or county building permitt dept. for local codes.

2) Discuss wih your buider how much, if any, the garage floor slopes, and where to. I've got no recmmendations, but you should think about it

3) I'd try to have an external air source for your fireplace to minimize drafts, particarly if it's a wood burner.

4) Prewire the house for a) cable tv, coax and maybe fiber for verizon if possible b)phone, c) maybe hardwire for internet but wirless works for me, be aware of the security differeces though. d) pre wire for stereo\surround sound speakers ( maybe garage too)

5) Put sound insulation in the walls between the bedroom and the great room.

6)Put enough electrical outlets near the entertainment system.

7)don't use cheap outlets and switches.

8) Start thnking about where you want electical switches and outlets, local codes may force some placements though.

9) Don't short change the lighting in the garage.

10) Use a good primer on the sheetrock walls, it will help hide the differences in texture between the sheet rock and the compound on the seams and nails or screws.

11) Start thinking about where the external AC unit wil go from both a visual and noise persective

I hope this helps, Mike

Number 11 is a real good suggestion. I but both AC units on the roof. In fact, they are attached with brackets and isolators to the masonry chimney. Can't be seen or heard from the ground or inside the house.

Did make the mistake of installing the 20KW generator too close to our bedroom, though. However, the sound became music to my ears after the last 4 of the 5 day power failure we had.

I'm not planning a house anytime in the near future, but this is absolutely fascinating reading!

Howdy, Chris Summers. I pass Barboursville, on my way to Clay, WV. Summersville, WV, must have been named after your family. I've white-water rafted the Upper & Lower Gauley, New (love the bridge), and Cheat Rivers. It's truly God's country.

Folks,

These are all great comments and I apprciate them very much. Some of these I was planning on anyway, but some are good for me to consider and actually may lead to other things as well. Since this plan is still evolving, I'm making updates as I go, each time adding details. To answer a few of the ones posted:

1. Adding ventilation and make-up air in basement and garage areas,
2. A complete copper based wiring scheme for regular and ethernet (cat 5/6). All of Dave Dare's thoughts we're already on the drawing board (but not documented) plus a few more. And yes, no aluminum,
3. Garage floors slightly pitched and may include drains,
4. Good idea about the A/C compressor and/or generator location for noise.

Thanks again,

Hi Chris,

As someone else who has spent a lot of time thinking about this sort of thing and with considerable experience in the construction industry, I have a few thoughts that might be helpful.

First, depending on how cold it gets where you live, consider using 2x6s for the walls. They're negligibly more expensive and will vastly improve insulation (R-19 at least) and noise proofing. I'd at least do it in the garage.

Next, think about air supply lines all around the garage. Air hoses lying around isn't great for safety or aesthetics of a "Garage Mahal." I had drops all over the garage in my last house and it was incredibly useful (I even put one in the kitchen, but I don't know why and never used it--it was just cool). As with the A/C and generators, try to locate your compressor someplace out of the way with a lot of sound insulation. Some guys put them outside in small sheds attached to the house, or inside under the stairs with a fully insulated closet around them. Just make sure you give it a fresh air intake if you go that route. Make sure to put a drop outside near the driveway so you can work outside.

Outlets in the ceilings of the garage. Drop down trouble lights and extension cords are awesome. However many outlets you're planning in the garage, double it and under-stack them on each circuit so you're not tripping breakers all the time. Lots of overhead lights, too. Lots. A white or light colored painted floor will make it much, much brighter in there, too.

In the garage, mount all your cabinets off the floor a few inches. That way you can hose the floor off and sweep under them and there's no place for vermin to live. If water leaks in or off of a snowy car, the bottoms of the cabinets won't get waterlogged/rusty/moldy.

Speaking of cabinets, make a few of your countertops higher to facilitate working when you're standing up, which is how most of us work in the garage. I had a 42" countertop (like the height of a bar) that was my favorite and very comfortable to use.

Task lighting--over your workbenches, mount more lights. Lights in the floor are the Holy Grail of garage building. I've been looking for some for a while but haven't found anything suitable yet. Perhaps some of those heavy-duty outdoor lights they use at malls embedded in the sidewalks. There are also those light cubes that are rated to handle cars driving over them, but they glow rather than throw usable light. Maybe good under a car in close quarters.

Water/hose spigot in addition to scrub sink. Give your hose hot water, too. Washing your car in cool weather is much easier with warm water.

Carve out a "dirty room" somewhere in the garage for things like your bench grinder, sandblast cabinet, etc. Things that make dust aren't really fun to have around shiny cars. Install a proper ventilation fan (not a dinky bathroom fan) to get the dust out. This room doesn't have to be very large, depending on your equipment.

Make the man door to your garage swing out instead of in. Not only does this add floor space inside, but a burglar can't kick it in for access.

For heat in the garage, consider using a single water heater for both potable water and the radiant heat. I assume you'll have the garage on a separate zone anyway, and by doing it this way, you'll only need 1 water line to the garage and won't need another instant hot. You may as well put the water heater to work for the 23.5 hours a day it isn't making hot water for your shower. It will probably be more efficient this way, too, since you will undoubtedly keep your garage cooler than your house. If you use the house system for your garage, it's going to be heating a much larger volume of water for areas that don't need to be that warm.

I'm planning a new garage, and will be doing a basement with engineered concrete floors in the main garage area like in a parking garage. I don't want a tall garage, but I need the storage, so I'm going down. It adds about 15% to the cost of construction, however. Here's my earliest plan, which is not what I'm going to build, but includes ideas that you might find useful: My dream garage.

Looking at the floor plan for the house itself, can you move the bathroom next to the pool table to the garage wall instead? Of course that would mean rearranging the stairs and the cabinets, but putting a bathroom next to a public room should be avoided for noise and other considerations. You'd still have the same amount of floor space for the utility room, but the working parts of the house would be better isolated.

Whatever size they are now, make the kitchen and bathrooms bigger. I can't see the dimensions on the plan, but make them 15-20% bigger regardless. You'll never regret it. This is especially true for the master bath. Enlarge the house's footprint slightly if you have to in order to keep from stealing real estate from other rooms. That great room has a lot to give the kitchen and master bath--it's ENORMOUS. I know it's hard to visualize the size of rooms on a plan, but if the dining room table is to scale (most programs will allow you to customize the size of the furnishings to match what you have), the room is outrageously big. Big rooms are impressive to visitors, but people who live in them often find them not very cozy and uncomfortable. I'm not saying to break it up or make it smaller, but use the space you have already to improve other facilities.

Also think about a foyer for the front door. The front door opening directly into a social area with a pool table right there is typically not done on modern houses (it was common for the front door to open into the living room in older houses, however). It also serves as an airlock to buffer the interior of the house from the cold air outside when someone comes in.

One other thought that may not be great news, but in my opinion, that big garage isn't really aesthetically pleasing (sorry!). Using the salt-box roof on it compared to the hip roof on the main house makes them look like two separate structures and that the garage was an afterthought. It also completely dominates and dwarfs the front of the house, making the house seem out-of-proportion. I might consider putting the second story addition over the attached garage portion. Being taller in the center would make it seem more balanced and draw the eye to the house and the overall view rather than the giant flat expanse of siding that is the front of the garage. Making the garage shorter would also make it look like part of the building rather than detached. The second story could also be used to add some visual interest to the front of the house such as extending the front porch (our house has three porches and there's nothing better than sitting out there in the evening!).

As good as these software programs are, make sure a real architect has a look before you break ground. He'll have ideas you and I and the other guys couldn't dream of that will make huge differences. He'll also be able to advise you on things like code restrictions and items that might be unconventional enough to scare away any future buyers (not that you're going to sell the house, but someone, someday will).

Hope I'm not raining on your parade, but I think about this kind of stuff A LOT. If there's anything I can do to help, drop me a line any time.

Have fun!

Matt where were you when I built my garage. Some of your suggestions I already did, some other I wish I had. I have cable tv, phone line and ethernet line run out to the garage. With the ethernetline, I can use an old computer in the garage to locate parts, etc. without needing to go into the house dirty for just a minute or two. I recommend using a tube type montior in the garage due to it getting cold as not to freeze and pop an LCD screen.