It has been discussed but that all the farther it has gone, that it is may be time to switch the judging to Friday like other clubs do.

The reason for doing this would to be able to get awards set and the banquet program done in time. With a large amount of judged cars, the time between the end of judging and the awards banquet is only 4 - 5 hours at the most. To get the awards line up and the pictures of the cars on the screen in the proper order, so the owner is recognized, is hard. Of course we could do without the car pictures as they get their award...

Cons to this aproach would be an emptier show field on Staurday, judges school would have to moved up a day, and probably and emptier banquet.

Comments are welcome especially some of you who belong to other clubs who my do this already.

Bill thanks for posting this idea.

Anyone that has attended a national meet should be aware of the advantages.
(1) The show field (if the show were on Friday) could be open longer because people do not need to leave at 3-4 pm to get ready for the evening awards banquet.
(2) It gives the judging team adequate time to compile, count, and list the cars on a summary.
(3) It gives the judging and awards committe time to get the presentation together, by class, with pictures for the correct car.... not the rush that always occurs.
(4) The Awards Banquet could start earlier on Saturday evening...it could even be an afternoon event. This would get you out of the Banquet before 11pm as has happened at many nationals.

There are some arguments against, but the idea is worth trying before we set it in stone.

Please comment.

Some disadvantages:

1). In the past showfields have used parts or all of various bussinesses parking lots that are next to host hotels, if the show was to be held on Friday, those lots would probably not be available.

2). Many drive in on Thursday, clean their car up Friday for the show on Saturday. a Friday show would make an earlier in the week departure, more missed work, another hotel night, and more expense for events that are already cost prohibitive to many.


3). Many cars drive in the morning of the show as many people have trouble getting time off during the week.


4). Spectators or those that like to look at the old cars get screwed as most of the cars that would be judged Friday would be back in their trailers and not viewable on Saturday when shows are usually held. (what a joke about cars being viewable longer if the show was on Friday so people wouldn't have to get ready for the banquet - let's face it, it's like the Indy 500 car owners getting their cars off the field ASAP after they get them judged regardless of what follows the show)

The biggest judged show in the world (Hershey) is held on Saturday and they manage to get it all done before banquet time.

It would be easy to get out Saturday eve from banquets before 11PM if that is the driving issue behind this. CUT OUT MUCH OF THE BULL####!!!!

If you want to make the banquet endurable eliminate all the "thank you's", speechs, club recognitions etc etc etc., and guest speakers.

Make the damn thing fun!.............Bob

Its not so much the Banquet that is the problem Keith, its all the preparation for it.

Matching pictures and cars, getting the judging done and tallied, ensuring the awards go to correct person is a big job that requires more then 5 - 6 hours.

From the few Nationals we attended, I cannot say I noticed a big exodus from the show field after a car was judged. It's a sure bet some folks would do so, especially if it was a day like any this past week in Flint. Still, as evidenced by this past week's events (with no judging involved) many Buick people love to get their cars out for others to see, so I would doubt the Saturday show field would be empty if judging were done earlier in the week. And,I'd like to offer an alternative to a formal judging on Friday only.

Why not open judging up during each day of the meet? Leave it to an owners discretion as to when to be judged. This allows those who arrive earlier to be judged and completed even before Friday. It might be convenient to open a judging station similar to the photo station for people to use at their leisure. This may make a Saturday show day less ambitious a project for judges, and more fun for everyone who wants to relax and kibitz with other members. I can still recall one acquaintance who told me that at Batavia he felt it was not conducive to meeting others, even in his own class, because he had to sit by his car to await the judges.

One rule might be that this pre-Saturday judging was only for the formal judged cars, not the drivers class. Leave the Drivers award class for Saturday. This class does does not impact the awards program significantly anyway.

IF the judged show was held on Friday, I tend to concur that it would not give car owners a motivation to have them on display after the judging was over . . . UNLESS there was one unified event to keep them there, as a parade or "event" to make it worth their while to have the cars on display. Or promote a large, free car show for the public to attend rather than having the "real" show on Saturday. Put some excitement in it rather than work!

IF the judged show was held on Friday, it might give some the notion that there was nothing else to stay for, which would give them a whole weekend to drive home. Basically shifting their vacation a day or two forward, in effect. This might also affect the swap meet vendors who might not want to stay after the traditional show and judging was done, regardless of when the banquet was held. Keeping people there with a "Buick Cruise-In" of sorts would be necessary to keep people at the event, I suspect. OR, it could be done like some indoor shows I've attended, if you tear down your display before the awards are presented, you forfeit any awards you might have been eligible to receive.

I suspect that a LOT of this "Saturday vs. Friday judging" might have something to do with a particular mindset. Yet having the judging on Saturday and the awards banquet on Saturday might have worked well in the earlier days of the BCA, but in more recent times, the logistics of getting the necessary tabulations completed and computerized, the awards issues, plus the picture order are a huge undertaking to make happen in time for "The Really Big Sheeoow". Been there, done that -- twice.

At car shows where the awards or "First, Second, or Third" or "Class Winner or Runner-Up", it's easy to order the awards in advance and have enough for what is needed . . . in advance. With the BCA 400 Point system, how many Gold, Silver, or Bronze awards is totally variable and how many of each is not known until the judging tabulations are finalized for each class. In trying to use prior shows as gauges of how many tp pre-assemble, the figures are so variable from year to year that it's purely a crapshoot. The computerized data system which Roy Faries has designed and implemented for these reporting functions is a huge advance from prior times, getting the information faster is a huge plus, but as many might know, getting all of these things finalized in a few hours DOES take some doing to make happen.

At the present time, with all of the higher-level meetings that usually go on on Saturday, when the judging is being done, having the judging on Friday would make these meetings available to more of the membership, other than those not involved in judging and admininistrative activities. Friday could become the "work day" and Saturday would be the day to take it easy, relax, visit, and "talk cars".

Other than the a few particular meetings and sessions which have to happen before other things can be scheduled, it is an onerous juggling task in scheduling these meetings so they can be attended by the membership as a whole. Having the judging on Friday could open up new possibilities to better schedule these things. Oh, and it might let "the judges" even partake of some of the local tours on Saturday, too.

We've heard the comments about people driving to the meet, arriving on Friday afternoon, getting their car ready for the show the next morning, then leaving on Sunday morning to drive home, and being ready for work on Monday or Tuesday. And we've seen that happen in many cases. Perhaps planning the vacation to add a day on the front end of things, to compensate for being there a day earlier, might do the trick?

A KEY issue might be if there would be sufficient people at the meet on Friday to do the judging AND attend a judges training session before that? Or possibly start the judging at Noon on Friday or 1:00pm (after breakfast, judges training, etc.). This could set the stage for some leisurely dinner meals with friends to share the day's events and activities with? If there's going to be a dance or musical performance, that might dovetail nicely with this possibility. Starting the judging at Noon or 1:00pm would also allow time for those who arrived Thursday evening to have time to prep their cars for the show field.

As the BCA National Meets' 400 Point Judged Show is basically "Members Only", the judged show can really happen any time that is desired. With the judged show on Saturday, it makes it convenient for spectators to attend and see the cars and swap meet areas--good marketing activities for the club. How many spectators might attend can be variable, though. Plus, like any other big swap meet or car event that spans the weekend, if somebody's really wanting to attend, they'll sneak off from work or plan and take a vacation day on Friday . . . IF so motivated. I suspect that if people drive by on Friday and see the cars, the ones interested in them will come back on Saturday . . . provided the participants understand that they need to be there on Saturday with the cars "in view", whether on the show field or beside their trailer.

I do believe that with the BCA National Meets getting larger every year, in many respects, it could well be time to reconsider how some things are scheduled and orchestrated. Looking at how other clubs do their national meets can be a help to see things which might be considered, but to do things just because another club does it that way can be counterproductive. This is because each vehicle's following is generally a particular demographic of human beings who are more comfortable with doing things a different way than BCA members/Buick enthusiasts might be (or even sub-sets within the Buick enthusiast hobby!).

By observation, the end result (whatever that might be) needs to be customized to the needs and desires of BCA members specifically (although some of these orientations might be shared with enthusiasts or other vehicle groups). It's always good to see what others are doing and see if what they are doing might be adapted, modified, or otherwise customized to what we should be doing to end up with better solutions and alternatives to consider implementation of.

As the need for this discussion is becoming more needed and serious than many might suspect, I might also recommend that a future implementation date be put in place as a target date. To allow for the necessary lead times, I might suggest a full implementation target of the BCA National Meet in 2011. Other than input from the forums, it might also be advisable to have a dedicated committee to research and fine-tune the final proposal and recommendations on these subjects.

Regards,
Willis Bell 20811

From a very tired and slightly wine-addled brain, here are a few thoughts:

• not only does the judging school need to happen ahead of the judging, we need to get all judges attending the school to ensure we have consistency with current philosophy on judging - note this is something of a pet peeve of mine
  
• what is the demographic of national meet attendees? In other discussions we express concern about the aging of the BCA membership. Who is judging and having their cars judged? Are they locals who can get to the show for just Saturday? That would be a subset, but I don't know about a majority.
  
• admittedly, costs are higher the longer you stay, but if you restore a car, you can most likely afford an extra day at a meet. I'm into my Wildcat for over $30k now, so an extra day at perhaps $200 isn't as big a deal.
  
• why is everyone attending the national meet? Is the 400 point judging the be all and end all? What proportion of cars at recent meets have been judged?
  
• perhaps recruitment of judges is the bigger issue. Personally, I feel that if I ask to have my car judged, I should do what I am able to within the judging process. Perhaps that means helping to tabulate or put together the final product. Perhaps we need to change our general thinking about this. Frankly, if you just show up to a National, unload your Buick off an enclosed trailer and prep it just for the 400 point judging, then put it back on the trailer, and scurry off, perhaps to receive an award in the mail, you are just being selfish.
  
• if the public is being encouraged to attend the "big" car show on Saturday, perhaps the job of judging would be a bit easier on Friday with less of the general public around. Judges aren't in the way of spectators and vice versa.
  
• I'm sure I had something else, but forgot it...sigh.
  

For me, the National isn't solely about judging. It's about, as Roberta says, 'having a party with 1300 friends'. To me, it is exchanging knowledge, meeting up with old friends, making new friends, and seeing a part of the world I may not have seen before. That's why I'm so excited about Colorado next year...I've never been there and I've heard it's beautiful. Yes, I plan to have the Wildcat judged, and yes, I plan on offering my services for judging. That's just a piece of it. You also have to remember that judges and the judging administration team are BCA members and National Meet attendees just like everyone else there. They shouldn't have to work at a feverish pitch just to be burned out and ticked off and perhaps skip the banquet as a result.

The big issue is the timing of the end of judging, the time it takes to prepare the results, and then the putting it together in a visual format for the awards presentation. So, to improve that, there are limited options. One is to actually change the time between the end of judging and the awards presentation. So, if the banquet stays on Saturday night, then the judging needs to start earlier, whatever that means. Another alternative would be to move the awards presentation to Sunday. Granted people leave, and after-tours begin, so perhaps attendance would be lighter, but those interested enough could participate. This would likely incur greater costs in shipping awards to absent recipients though. Another option is to get more people helping out. More hands make the work lighter. Finally, the last option I see is to make the judging administration / presentation preparation more efficient. As I don't know how that is currently done, I can't really propose any worthwhile changes.

Well, it's late and my wine glass is empty...time to stop tickling the keyboard.

Having been involved in events that try to accomplish all mentioned by Bill, I have to agree with Bill. It's the time involved. Judging, tallying, organizing presentations, then presenting the results at a banquet.....it is more than a 1 day task. Unless you have an army of 100 or more volunteers....it's just alot of work for one day.

I would like to suggest that we go back to the basic reason the BCA was founded. It was primarily to get together and have fun with our old Buicks.
The early meets had people gathering in the parking lots and discussing their problems and all the great times they had DRIVING their Buicks to the meet.
Now many of the cars do not come out of their boxes until "show day" and the owners of the "work of art " gather their trophies and put them away again.
There are many BCA members that do drive their senior Buicks , and I salute them ! These members realize that the Buick history is best maintained by having "factory correct" Buicks. The also realize that they are just a special mode of transportation.
The Buicks in the covered trailers do not promote the hobby as noone knows what is in the box. The cars on the road sre the real promoters of the hobby.
I will now climb down from my "soapbox"

Having been involved in the judging and administration of several BCA national meets, I have experienced too many Saturday afternoons when the clock was ticking, results were not finished, slides of the winners were not in order, audio-visual equipment was not working properly, photos were not developed yet, trophies were not assembled and put in order yet, master of ceremonies scripts were not finished yet (for the banquet), and lists of awardees were not complete or were full of errors due to the rush of time between the end of judging on Saturday afternoon, and the beginning of the awards banquet in early evening. To continue this rushed process does not make much sense to me.

I've been to the Oldsmobile national meet where the judging is done on Friday, and there is a full field of cars in place. People find a way to get off of work and arrive there before Friday. If the awards banquet is carefully planned, most people who show a car will stay around through Saturday for their moment "in the sun" so to speak.
The suggestion of having the judging run each day of the meet will not work. It is hard enough to sign up and train the judges and staff the administration/tallying room for one day, let alone all 4 days of the meet.

As to the question of judging number and percentages of cars being judged, the number of cars in the 400-point judging is decreasing each year due to the "Driver Class" which has pulled some very nice, potential trophy winners out of the 400-point judging. The 400-point judging should be continued because it is the only place where owners who are trying to have their restoration be authentic, can put their cars up against the ideal, and get an idea how close they have come to the ideal restored or original car.

To sum up, I'm in favor of Friday (afternoon?) judging and a Saturday awards banquet. And I have nothing but scorn for the trailer queens which are brought out of their enclosed trailers one hour before judging begins, and then rushed back into their sealed, closed compartments as soon as judging ends, never to be seen again by the rest of us. Selfish, selfish, selfish.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Pete makes perfect sense. I have not had the experience as Pete and Joe but they make great points. I'd be inclined to agree with Pete's suggestion.


stevo

I agre with Pete. We could not ask judges to do their work on two days, so Friday afternoon should work, and I would perhaps also suggest, unless there is real severe weather on Saturday, that to be eligible for an award, the cars be on the field also for some set hours that day (say 11-3) as well for display. And yes, I do have a Gold award car, that is blue and blue colors are known to not like the sun. After all it is a National meet and "show".

John

We need to remember that there are those in the Club that would like to have the Judging a week after the Show ! There are also those of us that like the Judging Program - for me its not a National unless there is Judging. Many have worked hard to put the 400 pt. program together and for the most part it works well. It will never be perfect but people volunteer their time to make it happen and its an educational process for all. For those who dont like Judging , enjoy the tours and visiting ole friends - I do all of it. I must say that another big part of the Nationals for me is seeing new and old friends ! I think that we should TRY doing the Judging on Fri. and if it doesent work out - we can go back to the old system. Just my thoughts on the matter and looking forward to a GREAT JUDGED MEET IN COLORADO !
Dick Sweeney BCA Boaard Member and Tech. Advisor

Pete,
Shame on you for describing nightmares I'd much rather leave forgotten. I agree with Pete, the rush to do all this in one day is just not necessary. Many people don't see the behing the scenes work, and don't realize all that is happening. This is a feather in the cap for all the shows where the organizers are scrambling to make it happen, and the participants are experiencing a smooth event and enjoying themselves. That juggling act is a hard one to pull off. And when a little problem surfaces, as they do from time to time, people will grumble as to why the organizers didn't have their act together to solve the problem. Well, they probably solved 20 other problems and 1 slipped through. Give them the extra time and watch the quality of the shows increase. Smoother behind the scenes means FAR smoother up front for the participants, and far happier participants. Ever feel somewaht slighted by a show organizer because they seemed rushed to deal with your problem? Well, it's because they have their hands full.

Listen to Pete, he knows what he's talking about.

Way to go Joe.
At the second National I attended I received my Gold Senior award. I was extremely proud. My father was there and he was proud of me. Willie (Old Tank) who helped and mentored me in the restoration had the biggest smile on his face. It was nice that all of the time and money I had spent on my car was appeciated by the people who saw it and the judges who judged it. Upon hearing that I had driven it and was fully intending to drive it back 1800 miles to Texas, one of the other owners (with extreme visible shock) asked why I would drive such a nice car. I told him "It's just a car".
I would vote for judging on Friday as well, and if some of the folks put the cars "back in the box"... so be it. I had a ball in Flint.

Mike

I vote for judging on Friday, preferably in the morning before the heat of the day. Also for a judged car to be eligible for an award, it must be displayed BOTH Friday and Saturday.
Another change that would be welcomed by the judges would be to eliminate some of the layers of post-judging administration...sometimes judges spend more time after judging than the judging itself.
The extra time should used wisely and not squandered to the point of again rushing at the end.
Willie

Huh? Not to get off track, but I've never heard this one. Can you explain exactly WHY a "blue" car would be more fragile to sun exposure than any other color?

Actually, when you're talking about fragile to the sun, I would submit that original cars of any color, with their aged and brittle lacquer, would be more easily harmed than any restored (repainted) car.

As for the Friday vs. Saturday judging, I don't think it would have a big impact to most owners. As long as there IS judging. And, if I'm not mistaken, recent BCA rules will ensure that ALL nationals--from this point forward--will offer the 400-pt judging system.

70 Electra,
Blue is about the least color fast color and is prone to fading in sunlight. This applies mostly to fabrics, but may also effect paint if not protected by UV screening top coats.

To verify, just take a look at any old blue couch or car fabric to see where the sunlight faded the blues and not the other colors. You can always find the original color "where the sun don't shine".

It seems few would disagree that a Saturday show and banquet works well from the standpoint of timing during the meet for many reasons.....if we do not take into account the after judging process.

That being said, considering the monumental task of tabulating and preparing the judging results for the banquet in a short time has to be very stressful for those involved. This is a process where the smallest mistake can make tempers flare if it happens to a member who has no patience or understanding of the task at hand. Expecting 100% accuracy (and people do) while cramming the task into a very short time is not practical rationale. The people who volunteer their time need to enjoy the whole show just like everyone else.

If the current awards program including the picture matching process in sync with the award must continue, the show may be better off going to Friday. I can fully understand why most members would prefer the Saturday show and evening banquet because they only see what happens on the outside. If the awards process can't be simplified without losing the full impact of recognition as the officers and board members see fit, then a Friday show with Saturday banquet certainly warrants serious consideration.

On the other hand if the process can be simplifed somehow to save a couple hours of prep time then keeping the current Saturday show/banquet may have a larger advantage over an awards ceremony without the added fluff of sync'd photos for example.

The process of synchronizing the car pictures with the award recipients does take some doing, but computerization has made it easier. It's a nice touch so that all can see which car the award is for rather than taking somebody's word for it. It doesn't add too much additional time to the banquet, but is probably a good investment to make it a better award presentation. Still, it DOES take some doing to make happen.

If the awards being used were like many other shows (i.e., first, second, third . . .), then the awards could come to the show already done. With the totally variable numbers of each award which will be presented, per BCA 400 Point Judging standards, having them all pre-built and ready to put out on the table for presentation might not work in all cases. Adding the various Senior recognition awards adds to that mix, too. Not nearly as easy or "painless" as a weekend car cruise awards show!

Regards,
NTX5467

Synchronizing car photos with award winners is not difficult. If the photos and judging are done at the same time, a photo of the windshield card can be done immediately before the photo of the car to help identify it for judging and for the awards presentation.

The same could be done when the cars arrive at the meet. I suggest the owner(s) be photographed with the car upon arrival. The photos of the windshield card photos could be matched so we could simply show photos of the winners with their cars at the banquet. This would make the awards presentations much shorter and allow everyone to clearly see the car and the recipient (much better than waiting for people come up to the podium one at a time). The same photos could then be published in the Bugle.

Mark,

Taking photos of the cars is not a problem for a BCA National meet. There is already a process in place. Any car that wants to be judged must go through an 'Operation Check' where the car's basic safety features such as lights, brakes, horn, etc. are checked. There is a photographer at this sight to take pictures of the cars as they drive through. The vehicle's registration number is displayed clearly in the photo for future identification. So, in theory, all judged cars will have their picture taken. Once awards are calculated (identified by car registration number) the photo is found for that registration number and put in the proper place for the awards slide show. The North Texas Chapter has hosted two BCA Nationals since 1996 and are very good at this.

The difficulty is the time it takes to arrange the awards presentation. After the judges turn in their findings, the information is entered into a computer by car number, awards are calculated, and a list of winners is handed to the person organizing the slide show. There is only a certain amount of time before the banquet starts. The more cars, the longer it takes. Simple as that.

Roy,
Exactly my point...an additional photo of the car with the windshield card taken at the time the car is judged could facilitate matching the winning cars to the photo with the owner(s).

The real point is to eliminate the time consuming process of having each winner come up the the podium to receive their award and and/or pose for photos at the banquet.

Car photos without people are just car photos. I am suggesting an alternate way to recognize the winners that could significantly reduce the awards process at the banquet while simplifying the preparation process for the banquet.

Mark, there are various scenarios to have the award winners waiting to receive their awards rather than waiting for them to come up and get them. I feel like we had a very good way of getting that done at the 2004 BCA National Meet Banquet. Our North Texas Chapter operatives had attended many BCA National Meets and figured out how to make things happen expeditiously and efficiently.

Almost every award recipient wants to get their picture taken when they receive their award. This normally means a family friend being there to snap the picture. An alternative would be to have each group of award recipients meet for a group shot in a designated place in the hallway adjacent to the banquet room, for a group shot.

Every host chapter has their own orientations toward how to do the awards banquet presentations. Some have been observed to work better than others, with all due respect, so having this portion of the banquet done in a little more standardized manner might be beneficial.

The scenario to get the car pictures and entry numbers, as Roy mentioned, does work very well. For the 2004 meet, Mr. Stoneberg (and his team of assistants) got the pictures done on film media, then transferred to a picture DVD. I know there was a reason that it was done this way rather than just on digital media. They also moved the actual photo location to coincide with the changing sun angles during the day. I also seem to recall that the owner posed with their car in these 2004 pictures, too.

Even with the level of computerization used in 2004, it took a good while (several hours) to get things cataloged and such as the awards results were tabulated and incrementally provided to those getting the presentation finalized. I know how long those things took to happen in a smaller BCA show, so I shudder to think of the massive effort it would take for a judged show the magnitude of the 2008 BCA National Meet!

Everybody likes to attend and participate in a big BCA National Meet, with the judged car show a key area of interest. Plus they generally like to attend the awards banquet. Nothing wrong with these orientations, at all--period.

Having an intimate knowledge of how long it takes to make things happen after 400 Point Judging finishes and getting the awards presentation activities orchestrated and completed before the banquet starts, with all due respect, I wish that everybody who commented about the 2008 BCA National Meet not being a judged meet, could see what goes on behind the scenes at a smaller show, then project what they see for a meet with a 400 Point Judging show field of (say) 500+ vehicles, observe the judging tabulations and record-keeping activities for such a large show, award plaque production, plus related side issues . . . not to mention having enough qualified judges on hand to judge that many vehicles expeditiously and accurately . . . Certainly, increased computerization can and is helping, but each "labor operation" still takes time to make it happen for each entry in the show. As critical as the judging process and related record-keeping is and can be, making sure "all of the ducks are in a row" is of utmost importance . . . plus being ready for all of the ducks to "Quack on cue".

Perhaps it might be possible to design a Local Access Network of wireless laptops where data and pictures would be fed into a main computer for archiving and processing "in real time" (pictures, judging data, etc.). This might speed things along, but there would still need to be a hard copy of the various judging documents for archiving and verification activities . . . plus in the event of a system failure, as back-up information. I have no doubt that Roy could design such a system and software for the BCA or other similar entities, but that would also increase the amount of "stuff" which the BCA National Office and others would have to take to each meet (either taking in their vehicles or charging the host chapter to ship them to the meet . . . hoping they didn't get damaged in the process) as they currently do for the special BCA-oriented awards. It might end up costing more money than time it would save, but I highly suspect that such a situation might be a reality in a few years as technology increases and laptops become lighter and more powerful.

Respectfully,

Willis Bell 20811
North Texas Chapter, BCA