I hope all the Pa. guys noticed the lovely Kathleen resigned as head of DEP yesterday. She has cost Pa. tons of $$. Good ridence!! A resignation usually means the end of a political career, so that's good too.

Resigning from the DEP is hardly a death sentence. I worked under three Secretaries at the DEP. One resigned for health resons and passed away immediately afterward. The other two went on to immediately be named heads of 2 Chamber of Commerces (state & Philadelphia), both at a very high pay raise. Of course those two worked under administrations with a very different idea of environmental regulation from the norm. (I used to keep technically illegal duplicate files on all my sites, because negative reports tended to "disappear" in Harrisburg in those days. When you hear "compliance-based regiment" in the running of a state agency, that's what it means.)

Your tax dollars not at work.

BTW, she seems to have been an actually effective administrator. In PA that must have been a tough thing to get used to.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/pa-gove...thleen-mcginty/


http://www.philly.com/philly/news/24443994.html

She'll do fine.

Dave, I didn't think you would understand. What your articles didn't tell you was how she stopped construction on the most dangerous stretch of hiway PA. owns because runoff from stone used on the embankements MIGHT kill a fish. No real facts just MIGHT. The stone was mined in the area it was used. The construction stopped and the stone was covered with plastic and sandbags. The plastic poses a greater risk of killing fish then the stone. She has been studying the "problem" for several years with no outcome. Meanwhile the taxpayer pays the contractor for the delay. She's also brought Pa. the most idiotic set of car immisions laws known to man. They test the cars that test themselves, LOOK at the cars that don't. BTW, if you were really an evironmentalist, like you claim on this forum, why would you knowingly keep 2 sets of records? I would not want a job like that!!

I did a great deal of good in those years, stopped more pollution than I ever could have in any other life choice, worked outdoors in a position of authority and responsibility at a comparitively young age, and did it all working with people who shared a (reasonable) attitude towards environmental quality vs. human commerce, most of whom would've done it for nothing like me. I'd do it again tomorrow.

The second set of records were mainly to secure myself from question by the EPA, who are about as incorruptable as the FBI. If you ever want to know why those with deep pockets support political causes that push for local government authority in the maximum number of situations, just remember how much easier it is to bribe the mayor than the Prseident. It's good to work for the President instead of the mayor, believe me!

As for rock runnoff killing "a fish", it's obvious that the whole story isn't there in your post. If I were to build an embankment along a Wayne Co. brook trout stream out of acidic coal mine gob I'd have about half the pickup trucks in PA looking for me with shotguns after a while. That's an extreme, but there are almost certainly complications to this story that you either don't know or are leaving out. It's very easy to see why this would be important.

BTW, stream impacts are handled by the Bureau of Dams and Waterways. Their regs are largely based on Federal requirements, especially when it comes to direct impacts like this one. Rarely is there anything like discretion in evaluating one of these plans. It sounds like PENNDOT (again) signed a contract where someone is being paid until the program is approved who is also responsible for the approval. Gee, what could go wrong?

As for the emissions program, what ever did make sense about that? PA is run by lobbyists, pure and simple. If someone in private enterprise can charge you more for something that the government should be doing, it'll happen in PA first. The whole inspection program should've been scrapped years ago. Moving to Ohio underscores that in the extreme!

(When I worked for the PA-DER, every office/building in the Dept. was rented. Did you know that landlords make great campaign contributors? My converted warehouse office in Pittsburgh (with the used cubicles from a closed Westinghouse division) was rented at a higher rate per square foot than any other office space in the city (mahogany walls or not). I NEVER met one person from another environmmental agency who worked in a rented office, reasonable rates or no. Not from any other state, not from the EPA, not even from any county agency.)

(Hint--this means "wink-wink") But for God's sake, don't vote for anybody but the incumbant that speaks to your needs and who belongs to the only good political party on earth (whichever, as long as it's your's). Only he/she understands. It's everybody else in the state that can't see past the bull of their guy.

Pennsylvania, Land of Incumbancy

(Did I mention I used to work for those clowns?)

I think you are refering to the new hiway near State College. If I remember correctly the fill and/or the hiway cut was loaded with iron pyrite. Pyrites are notorious for forming sulphuric acid and is the main cause of acid mine drainage and the death of streams and rivers.
I've been swimming in the West branch of the Susquehanna for about 30 years now. We camp and hang glide near Renovo, PA. 30 years ago the river ran clear and looked great but it was dead. Nothing lived in it. After a swim your skin would be all flakey and while you were in the river every body orfice would burn from the acidity.
Over the last 4th of july weekend some in our group were catching (and releasing) nice size small mouth bass and at night you can hear frogs drumming. Flocks of geese and ducks were paddling about and reeds are growing again in the shallows.
The biggest thrill though was when I flew wing tip to wing tip at 3000 feet above the river with a mature bald eagle. They have returned to feed on the river fish.
I'm no tree hugger but I feel that all the above is beyond price. And if it takes holding up a bit of construction or spending some money to keep our priceless rivers clean it's OK with me........Bob

Bhigdog, you could be right, I don't know. But wouldn't ALL of that have been known BEFORE the contract was let out? The engineers that approved where the stone pit was established would have been aware of this. By this time the stone in question could have been removed and replaced with other stone instead of holding up the project. Are you also aware she also wants to force EVERY township/municpailty to implament septic inspections? ALL tanks would have to be pumped every 3-5 years and inspected by the locals, and replaced if they don't pass inspection. Of course the state would pay half of the inspection fee. But the homeowner gets to really pay the whole bill! The 18th will be a good day!

Actually I am aware of that proposal because I'm on my township's planning commission. I do beleive the 3-5 year pumping plan is a bit much. On the other hand we have a village in our township that has about 30 homes with failed septic systems that are draining raw sewage directly into the Little Schuylkill Creek. That's not speculation it's a documented fact. Where the line is drawn between responsible regulation and environmentalism run amok is a thorny issue. I don't claim to have all the answers.....Bob

Pennsylvania, especially northeast PA, was decades behind most of the country in basic septic care when I was with the DER. I lived for a year and half in Packerton in the late 1980s, a small village between Jim Thorpe and Lehighton. At that time virtually none of the small cities of Carbon County had any sewage treatment whatsoever, and one had only recently bothered to install below ground sewage lines.

20 miles downstream was the Schaefer Brewery, by then brewing Strohs beer.

A non-functioning septic system is no better, and I can tell you from personal experience (sewage sludge disposal was part of my purview with the DER prior to moving to Pittsburgh) that the people who don't maintain their systems are the ones who will object the loudest to having that discovered by any means. Meanwhile your tomato garden is giving you food poisoning because it's getting runoff from the neighbor's yard.


There won't be one if ensuring simple responsibility to one's fellow man falls under the "run amok" heading. People are simply not as responsible as others imagine them to be. Therefore it becomes a cost/benefit analysis. You can absolutely bet that this proposal was based on one. Pragmatism does still exist.

Knee-jerk reactions against things like this don't consider such things. It's a belief system in this country that all new things are designed to take advantage of people, especially when the government is involved. Sometimes it's the old things that have been doing that all along.

All the "cities" of Carbon county are small. Both Lehighton and Jim Thorpe have had sewerage treatment plants for about 50 years........Bob

If you know anything about sewage treatment, there are three levels: Primary, secondary, and tertiary. Tertiary removes specific materials/contaminants that are a problem specific to the water system in question, usually through media filtration (which is very expensive). Secondary is nutrient removal (usually through large aeration tanks and/or media tanks, both of which encourage microbial breakdown). Primary is filtering out the chunks by settlement only, hopefully (but not always) both the floaters and the sinkers.

When I lived there nobody had better than primary treatment, including Lehighton and Jim Thorpe, and most had none whatsoever. Frankly I make little distinction between primary treatment and none whatsoever.

After I moved there I stopped drinking Stroh's. Nobody in my office would either. Inspecting those places was our job.

Dave, you can spin faster than a small block Chevy on nitrous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. The Sewer plant in Jim Thorpe (nee Mauch Chunk) was built in 1964 as both a primary and secondary process plant.
BTW, the production water at Stroh's (nee Schaefer) then Pabst, Ice something or other, now Sam Adams is drawn from deep wells and further filtered and processed. The finished beer is pasteurized. Couldn't be more clean and sanitary to the point of being sterilized. It did taste like crap though. Perhaps that's why you were confused........Bob

Well gee Dave, 98% of our 4 county Northern Neck area has "only" the primary systems you describe. They have worked fine since first used in the early 50's right after people upgraded from those drafty outhouses.

Nothing like a snake in the outhouse to make you finish the business quicker.

We still have shallow wells in our area too, but no one ever complained about the water quality or the taste. Actually the shallow well water tastes better than the deep well water in our parts.

Wayne

Bhigdog Bob,if you are aware of the legislation you are also aware of the percentage of "suspect" systems that promt the inspections. Our Tship has, to use round numbers for discussion, 20 % suspect systems, the threshold is 18% which kicks in the inspection. MY fix to our stupidvisors was fix the 2% worst systems in the worst areas to get under the 18% magic number so the whole Tship doesn't have to be punished and inspected. The first inspection would probably be easy, but the second or third would have new guidelines and pretty soon EVERYONE has a failed system. Pretty soon everyone would have a new $20,000 sandmound or worse yet a sewer bill. Every Tship, by the newly state mandated building codes, has the right to force citizens to fix known failed systems. Use the laws already in the books, don't create ne laws. I'm just hoping all of her outrageous ideas go away with her. She has cost the citizens of PA. hundreds of millions of $$.

1 in 5, huh? Remind me not to buy any roadside produce when I come to Hershey next year.

At least you guys have the Hershey Medical Center. Imagine having to trust the single-story hospitals most small towns have when your kid or your food gets a little too close to a "suspect system" (which is a nice euphemism for surface leakage of someone's sh.... Oops, forgot where I was. ).

I really don't have a problem with inspections as long as they are not over zealous. Our township has a Sewage Officer and he seems rational.
The mandate for a mandatory 3 year pump out schedule is just plain rediculous. This is an example of environmental over zealousness run amok I was refering to............Bob

QUALIFYER FOR DAVE MOON. "To use round numbers for discussion" As the meeting was several months ago I don't remember the exact percentage. Had I said 1% and 3% you would have challenged that too. The point was, which you missed it BTW, that it would be easier/cheaper for everyone concerned to fix the few known problem systems rather then make everyone go through expensive and needless pumping and inspection. You win again Dave, I'm done but so is Kathleen!! BTW, she should have never been confirmed because of the million dollar conflict of interest contract she signed for her husband's company. But Dumbacrats never seem concerned with details.

Of course. (And I didn't miss it.) And it would be cheaper and easier if all the murderers in the world would just turn them selves in, or at least let themselves be hunted down like animals to be placed on pikes outside town. Imagine the savings. No police. No justice system.

Also I'm not challenging anything. Just pointing out the thought processes that lead to different approaches.

It's not a liberal/conservative, environmentalist/real American, or Democrat/Republican thing (or world for that matter). It's a problem/pragmatism thing.

It used to be a problem/pragmatism world, too.

I thought so!

Here's what the real proposed regulation actually says:



BTW, the average septic tank is 1500 gallons. A three year cleanout schedule would be typical/recommended with such a tank serving a family of 5. ( Inspectapedia Building & Environment...evention Advice )

In all I've yet to hear of one single thing this woman has done in her tenure that's anything less than an excellent, reasoned approach to her job. It sounds like all her problems exist in the editorial section and on the AM dial of certain (shall we say) biased media outlets.

More problems from the land of incumbency (and pure partisan approaches).

Gee Dave, Another wealth of partial information. You neglected to mention that the draft also calls for a visual inspection of the tank baffles, solid and scum levels. What this means is that every three years a septic system that shows no signs of malfunction must be uncovered and visually inspected. Of course once it's opened it might as well be pumped. In other words it's a defacto 3 year pump schedule. That's both arbitrary and onerous.

The inspectapedia you quote is basically a puff piece for paid home inspectors. Of course they are going to tout frequent inspections. BTW they quote a ball park price of $700 for opening and pumping a tank. No mention of the "inspection" fee. A tank BTW that in most cases would be functioning perfectly fine with no outward signs of malfunction.

Yet another case of invironmental excess and of "Figures don't lie but liars can figure".

I used to do this for a living, remember.

Notice anything missing from this quote? Go through the rest of the 23 pages of proposed regulations I linked. If you follow the structure of the writing, whenever you see the word "inspection" you'll notice that who is doing the inspection is always specified. Usually it's the township "sewage enforcement officer" (SEO). Here no one is specified as the inspector.

Do you inspect your own tires? Brakes? (Oh, I forgot. In PA you have to pay someone else to do that. ) Do you have to replace them every time you/somebody looks at them? (Oh yeah, this PA again. )

What this simply means is that you're required to check and make sure your tank is still intact and functioning every three years, just in case it could be leaking/malfunctioning and the results aren't immediately visible on your property. Do you have any idea how many "septic" systems there are in PA that simply dump into mine voids, all of which outflow somewhere. Most SEO's in mined areas can name hundreds. That's just one of many practices that this section makes a direct responsibility of the owner.

You can also hire someone to do the inspection if your want, and of course the municipality has to option to oversee the process as it sees fit. The responsibility still lies with the owner.

While researching this I found at least one DEP Secretary press release admonishing honey dippers and other contractors for distributing misinformation about the regs for their own advantage. Apparently what most people are saying about these regs isn't what the regs say. Typical AM radio analysis.

This constant level of mistrust of fellow Americans just because they come from a different political party, and listening only to those who do the same, has to stop.

Yeah, you also said you KNEW Jim Thorpe's sewage plant didn't exist in the 80's and that it was only a primary treatment facility. Remember?

Your last post agrees with what I said. That every three years a homeowner will be required to uncover and inspect his septic tank. The cost will be borne by the homeowner @ about $700 plus inspection fees. Unnessesary and onerous!



HAW HAW HAW! Obviously you haven't been following the Harrisburg happenings for the last few years.
Can't we just all get along? Make luv not war.
Trust me, I'm from Harrisburg and I'm here to help. HAW HAW HAW!

Son, you got a lot learn.........Bob

Well, I haven't had much time between paying $25/month sewer bills and all, but here goes:

$700.00 is an excessive fee for a pumping and inspection. They range upward from about $300.00, depending on tank size and location, with anything over $500.00 being exceptional. Either you've never paid this fee, you have and have been ripped off, or you've been listening to partisan fear mongering which apparently has even sunk (literally) to this depth.

If you have been paying $700.00 for this on a normally sized tank every 3 years (or maybe less often?), I suggest you contact the Pennsylvania Septage Management Assn. to find a better contractor.

I'm sure you can find one that'll take $25/month!

Errrr......Ahhhhh,............... This is kind of awkward, but the $700 (or higher) is the expected cost suggested on the Inspectipedia site for a 1000 Gallon tank. You remember Inspectipedia? That's the "expert professionals" you used as a reference to bolster your 3 year pump cycle reccomendation.
So the question on everyone's lips is......Who is the partisan fear monger?.............Bob

It's interesting what some people choose to fear.



And it took me a long while to figure out where the $700.00 came from, but I finally found it.


I actually looked up what quotes I could find online from PA contractors who didn't have to look for and dig up the tank. (Can you imagine how full it must be if it's been so long you can't find it!!!! ) Apparently (if PA honey dippers work off of the same fee schedule), it's an extra $100-$150 to peak inside after they pump it out and write down what they see.

I guess you've either never pumped yours or don't have one. I still say you could find a contractor for $25/mo. with no trouble, especially if all he has to do every other 3 year cycle is look inside and see that it didn't fill enough yet, which given tank and household size is probably at least the norm. (And yes, the reg says that's ok.)

It's funny how responsible behavior can be made to sound heinous when politics are involved.

=============================

(BTW, Be wary of the lowest bidder when having this done. We had a hauler in the Scranton area who was such a frequent and notorious roadside dumper we called him Dr. Giardia around the office!)

Dave, while this has been entertaining, let's get out of the sewer and bring the discussion back to cars. What is your rationale for the emmisions test done in PA. The cars that are hooked up and tested , post '96, have On Board Diagnostic systems. All the mechanic would need to do is look at the dash display. BUT, because of Kathleen, the customer/taxpayer is charged about $40 to tap into a California computor. The most frequent cause of failure, according to local mechanics, is a loose or bad gas cap. I'm sure there's a logical reason other then revenue generation.