Where? The best non-captive import car any of the Big Three sell gets 24 mpg city (Caliber, Focus, & Cobalt) in their best trim. Virtually every "foreign" competitor beats that by at least 4 or 5 mpg in their most efficient non-hybrid line.

Worse, the Big Three have spent generations teaching those of us who buy these cars that we don't count. To this day the quality of manufacture for American 4 cylinder cars is demonstrably worse than for their 6 or 8 cylinder models. It's not as bad as in past years, but still it shows a distinct indifference. We've learned the hard way how little we matter who don't buy high-margin models.

Finally, it is the hybrid cars that matter, not just because of their growing sales and profitablility, but because of the "halo" effect they have on the other models in the lines. Much like Rivieras and Corvettes used to help sell a lot of LeSabres and Chevelles, the Prius and the Civic Hybrid are are doing the same for Camrys and Accords. Not for reverse-snob appeal reasons that some might assume, but because they show a real interest in serving the lower end of the market with quality product.

When was the last time you heard anyone say that about GM, Ford, or Chrysler? Falcon? Valiant? Cavalier? Tempo? Neon?

Our "domestic" manufacturers bet the farm on SUVs. They're about to lose it.

And now back to the TOPIC of this forum: Hydrogen.

Capitalism works. When a reliable hydrogen fuel cell or electric vehicle is ready, GM will be selling it. There may also be a Ford or Chrysler version, and that will be great, too.

Right now, the Toyota Pius looks good because people are shocked with $4 gas. But, when those cars start needing their batteries replaced at a cost of thousands of dollars, they will be clogging the used car lots the way SUVs are today.

Doesn't happen. Is as likely as needing a new engine block, and about as expensive. Virtually all have gone over 200K miles before replacement, if ever. Perfectly functioning used batteries are only a few hundred dollars anyway. Been said here dozens of times. Yawn.

=================================
For those who care:

When I bought my Prius 3 years ago they had been on the road for 6 years. More than a year later there had still yet to be a single Prius on earth that had had it's battery replaced for any reason except physical damage in an accident. As of this month there have been a total of 200 batteries replaced worldwide, a replacement rate of 0.003% over the life of the car. ( Autobloggreen.com, 6/2/08 )

Like they said so many years ago, "Ask the man who owns one."

Dave,

Once again, your data only fits your conclusions. The data Toyota is reporting is for OUT OF WARRANTY battery replacement. They can hide the replacement numbers within the warranty.

And other problems are easily found on various Web sites. But, I won't play the game where you respond back with your data and name calling.

The readers of this forum are very smart and they can see what is going on around them.

Now, back to fighting California wildfires.

Joe

"Our government should put a quota to how many cars can be sold here in the states." Whatever happened to the concept of capitalism? If a company fails to make good decisions it should be allowed to go out of business. If you leap to the salvation of any company that is "too big to fail" then you create a "moral hazard".

Sarcasm: But I forget socialism is okay for big business (wall street financiers and big businesses get bailouts when they screw up), just not for individuals (who should know better about making ends meet).



Hmmmm. And should we car about in warranty replacement rates? That cost is built into the price of the car and comes out of the manufacturer's profits.

Not sure about batteries, but generally if something has a crappy design it will cost the manufacturer a lot in warranty costs which they either cover in a higher sales price or they lose money on the sale.

And if it is a crappy design that has a high cost to cover the warranty it is likely that it will also be failing a lot after the warranty period. Given a low out of warranty failure rate, I would be surprised to find a high in-warranty failure rate.

For the record: I am prejudiced as we have a 2001 Prius (purchased in the fall of 2000) and a 2004 Prius (purchase in the fall of 2003). Both cars have been very good on repairs as long as the tires are kept at a high enough pressure.

Once again gang, just want to put the brakes on having this turn into a "rant." It probably already is but our moderators have felt that the conversation of cars as they relate to gas prices, alternative energy, etc. is certainly something that is appropriate to our forum. However, we ALL need to do this respectfully. Find a way to have a difference of opinion without getting personal. Thanks.

Isn't that what you just did here:

Huh?

So you're saying that although out-of-warranty failures are rare, there are many that are in-warranty that we don't know about? How is that even relevant? You were talking about the huge cost of ownership when the batteries go south and how hybrids aren't economically viable because of it (why do you hate them so much?). When it's in-warranty, the manufacturer eats the cost, not the consumer.

Dave, those are excellent percentages................ Now, as we all know, nothing will last forever. Suppose all the batteries start to go within a short period of time on all the cars that were sold say within a year of each other. Will Toyota have enough (100,000+ or so) batteries in stock to meet demand, or will the price go up to meet supply & demand? This is just a curious question...........

The husband of a coworker owns a 4 year old Prius with about 200K on it. No battery problems during or after the warranty.
Every so often they ask Toyota about the cost for replacing the batteries.
It seems that the price for new, replacement batteries has been going down over the last couple of years.

Steve, *** has a long history here of losing his argument on facts, and then claiming that people are calling him names to distract from it. If "wrong" is a name, then it may be. However, if you go back through this thread (and the threads he's posted on over the past few years) I doubt you'll find a single instance where he was called anything but "wrong" (or some synonym thereof).

Don't be taken in by the protests. There's generally less behind them than the arguments.

If people are allowed to read here about unproven miracle devices, unrealistic & untrue fuel projections, and unsubstantiated fearmongering regarding certain automobile companies/devices (to name a few recent examples), it will reflect on the rest of us as well as misleading a number of our own. Trying to protect such material with a cry of wolf to the moderators is, or at least should be, patently transparent.

There is a huge effort going on worldwide to manufacture more nickel metal hydride batteries. Toyota (and I believe all of the other hybrid manufacturers--GM, Ford, Honda, Nissan) offer a bounty for every used battery they've made regardless of condition to help with recycling the materials to make more. Toyota pays $300.00 for old batteries. There's little doubt that making enough of them will be a strain in the coming years. (All the more reason to get one now! )

I have no doubt that in a few years when lithium ion batteries are phased in similar programs will be in place.

============================

BTW, I found a very good short explanation of hybrid battery myths on this page of answers.com for anyone interested in their capabilities and lifespan. As of last October the record for mileage on an original Prius hybrid battery is 360,000 miles according to the Toyota tech who posted the information.

Wow, Steve. They really listened to you!

So, I have a question for you on another kind of related subject, since you know alot about this alternative energy stuff: How much pollution will it cause when they dump the car batteries from electric cars or hybrids?

ps. I all I know about Hydrogen is that it is a blast!

Here is the way I look at it, I dont have a car payment and my insurance is cheap, along with registration, so, I could buy a heck of alot of gas a $7 a gallon and it would be the same or a little more than a car payment, I plan though to upgrade and buy a 1989 Buick Lesabre 2 door which gets 25-30 mph hwy though.

What percentage of the mileage on a typical Prius is battery driven? Impossible to know I guess but I suspect the vast majority of the miles are powered by dead dinosaurs.

45-48 mpg from a car slightly larger than a Chevy Malibu (the new one as well as the old one) speaks for itself.

However to answer the question directly there are 2 things. First, it doesn't matter because the battery powers the wheels in conjuction with the engine. They work at the same time, it's not an either/or situation. Second the time spent in battery-only mode varies widely with driving style and topography. You can be using the engine at a steady 5 mph going up a steep grade, but not have it running at all driftng down a hill at 70 mph.

If someone was going to pay you $300.00 for anything, would you "dump it"?

The materials in these batteries is so valuable that I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to dispose of it. However if someone was dumb enough not to recycle one, the nickel-metal hydride batteries contain only metals of very low toxic potential. Compared to lead-acid or Ni-Cd batteries they're mother's milk to the environment.

I financed the entire price of the Prius over 66 months (of necessity, I was "upside down" on my Nissan truck). My car payment would buy 71 gallons of gas/month @ $7/gal. In a 20 mpg (combined) mileage car that's 17,040 miles/yr. If you drive that much in a '89 Buick getting 20 mpg (that never breaks down) and switch to the Prius, in a $7/gal. world the Prius is free!

17K miles may not be as much as you drive, but it's well below what many, many people drive every year. That's why there are 9 year old Priuses with 360,000 miles on them.

Why all the hybrid hate?

Just wondering why everyone here is so resistant to hybrids and looking to find chinks in the armor. Is it because it's Toyota making all the money and getting all the credit (if you want to be angry with Toyota, there are better reasons)? Is it because Dave is a proponent and it's fun to argue with him? Is it because the Hollywood elite are so smug about it? Everyone on this board in particular seems to be looking for reasons not to buy one or that they will ultimately lead to bigger problems. Why?

Do you think nobody has thought of these problems and working on solutions? Batteries can be recycled, and most automakers are paying for used ones. They aren't getting dumped in landfills.

Buying a hybrid just to save on gas if you have a perfectly functioning car that is paid-for is not good economic sense. But if you're looking for a new car, what's the beef with hybrids? If you need a mid-sized 4-door, and you're looking to spend $25K (where there are a lot of choices), why not choose one that gets 40 MPG instead of 25? It is certainly a more effective and realistic technology than a backyard hydrogen contraption that you bolt to your small-block Chevy.

Just curious to know about the motivations for running down (ha!) the hybrids...

Matt,

Personally (not claiming to speak on behalf of anyone else) I think the resistance is against hybrids as the universal answer.

To me, this forum is often a 10-15 minute distraction inserted in a very busy day as sort of a mental 'smoke break' while working USAF issues as part of Operation Noble Eagle.

To me, that means I like to hear different ideas, i.e., will hydrogen work as a supplemental fuel, what someone has heard or experienced with fuel cells, electric cars, etc.

When it beomce visceral, I think, is when one or more people say "my idea or belief is better so you are inferior; shut up." That is the kind of stuff that makes the moderators reaching for the Alka-Seltzer or Tagamet.

So, as I mentinoed to you in another message, life is short, I'm glad to be in a country where we can all offer ideas and viewpoints, and I wish to participate as long as this is fun and/or someone can benefit (save money) through this forum.

I found this article from Forbes Magazine which ties up this loose end nicely.

How about this for opening up a can a worms...

---Hybrids are a great interim solution
---Hydrogen power is too

The long term solution is to simply drive less. The implications of that include living closer to family, work, school, church, and entertainment. Telecommuting will become more prevalent.

A side benefit will be that we'll walk and bike more, improving out health, and pollute less, which is better for all of us.

This ultimately will not be a choice but a necessity. The days of unlimited energy, at any price, will be gone in our kids lifetime.

Peter

P.S. Our hobby will continue but the days of driving or trailering our cars across the country will be much less practical. The upside will be our local clubs and events will benefit.

My only objection is to unsubstantiated hype re new technologies. The hybrids have proven themselves,no argument with that. I just find it amazing how usually intelligent people are willing to fall for any sort of snake oil such as on board hydrogen generators. An earlier post claimed that a Helium powered car was being tested. Pray tell how that would work? Helium doesn't burn. Compressed air vehicles? Do the math. My two big compressors can barely keep up with the air tools in the shop and you propose running a car on it? My other observation, and I'm not implying that this applies to anyone on this forum is that many Prius owners will switch just as soon as the newest style, gimmick or fad comes along. Drive less, keep your old vehicle in tune and running, only buy another vehicle when absolutely necessary and then buy the highest mileage technology that suits your needs. That's the way to save the environment and some cash. I remember reading in Popular Science about flywheel driven city buses. Whatever happened to them? Every few years there is all kinds of noise about steam cars. Where are they? We are restoring 2 early electrics and they are practical for short jaunts around town or maybe a short commute. Will the highly touted electrics soon to come on the market have AC? Heat? Heated seats? Inquiring minds want to know.

Jeff, you're speaking of the sucker born each day syndrome? I agree, anything would have to be tested for me to buy it. On the other hand I keep an open mind about anything new. I'm still waiting for those "Hanger 13" guys to let us use the technology they found on the ship in that desert. (Loved "Independance Day" )

I've been stuck with leading edge technology engines twice in the last 8 years. First, with a Cummins engine that had valve problems that Cummins said were nonexistent, but they still wanted to replace the head at my cost of course, even though it was still under warranty. Then I got stuck with the latest Caterpillar 550hp engine that has had 3 recalls, been in the shop numerous times, and still keeps me awake at night. All of this because government types are trying to tell engineers how to design pollution free engines, when the gov guys can't even balance a checkbook or pay their own bills on time.

Yes, I'm looking forward to the future, praying for it actually. Things have been way too dull in the automotive industry for too long now.

Wayne
*
*
*

Had an employee years ago whose idea of alternative fuels was stolen lacquer thinner. He found out that a car will run very well on lacquer thinner, just not for very long.