Neither hydrogen nor hybrids are an answer for anything.

Hydrogen is not a source of energy. The hydrogen has to be made out of something else, at a cost of energy. The most economical source is to make it out of natural gas, but it would be more efficient to just burn the natural gas in a gas engine.

Hybrids get lousy mileage. 48 MPG? There are dozens of non hybrid cars that do better than that.

You can start the list with my old Mercedes 190D, any VW diesel ever made, or if you like gas cars, my old Renault Le Car (aka Renault 5) and my buddy's 3 cylinder Pontiac Firefly convertible.

If they can't get a hybrid to do better than that they may as well lay down and quit.

48 mpg is a typical city mileage figure. Highway mileage is typically the same or only slightly better, unlike a conventional car.

Now, start a list of cars with 96+ cubic feet of interior space & under 10 sec. 0-60 mph times that can match that, or even come close. It'll be a short list. None of the cars you just listed match either category, let alone both.

Jeff
I think there's one more thing we Americans are going to have to accept to change, and that's the idea of 0-60 performance being so important.

When I worked for the PA-DER we had an off-brand gas station chain in Pittsburgh (Red Head) in the 1980s that had been buying off-spec xylene/tolulene from paint thinner manufacuters for sale as high test gasoline. They'd been doing that for years prior to Federal/state regulations on xylene and tolulene as hazardous waste.

Since it was an established business practice, and apparently a legitmate use of the material, there was no reason to challenge it. So long as it met Red Head's requirements it was perfectly legal.

So, Dave how much is full coverage (at a reputable company), and registration, tax, fees, etc. Alltogether over the life of the car? What about the comfort level? Repair cost, when the battery goes bad? Other repair costs? In comparison with a 20 yr. old car where parts can be had at any mechanic even in the middle of West Texas, etc.? How about work cost on a Prius? And where are these Prius' with 350,000?

I was all enthusiastic about hybrids too. Until they came to market and we found out how lame they are.

My point is, that it is possible to do just as well as a hybrid or better without all the monkey motion. I'm sure a conventional car designed for mileage can beat the hybrids better than a 15 to 50 year old design.

I predict we will see such cars in a few years. The reason they are not on the market now is that it takes several years to develop an all new model and the demand has only recently resurfaced.

The hydrogen vehicles available today are on the road strictly as R&D vehicles. GM won't even sell their hydrogen vehicles, and will only lease them if you live close to a refueling station. It's costs over $100K to build one, and the fuel costs more to make than it sells for. The companies building the cars will tell you hydrogen is at least 10 years away.
I spent years working on propane and NG powered vehicles, as well as gas and diesel. I oversaw the installation on a NGV fueling station for my last employer. When we built that station, the AQMD gave us extra free money to install infrastructure to handle hydrogen fueling, when and if it every became viable. That was five years ago, and hydrogen is still many years away.
If they don't get hydrogen vehicles on the road, how are they going to improve them..?? Look where the automobile was in 1900. The horse was more practical, but they kept at it, and it wasn't to many decades before they made some pretty good cars. That is why hydrogen is on the road, so we can improve it and make it a viable alternative. It won't happen over night.
I applaud all of the different attempts to build a better mouse trap. I, as much as anyone, hope someone comes up with a cheap gas/diesel alternative. I would like nothing more than to watch a starving Saudi King trying to figure out how to grow tomatoes in the sand over his worthless oil reserves.
I'm willing to look at anything, but until someone proves me wrong, I'm not buying the perpetual motion water machine. I have been in the automotive industry for many decades, and have seen these claims made over and over again for longer than I have been around.
Look at the condition our American auto manufactures are in today, all in terrible financial shape, cutting out models, cutting costs, giving free interest rates. If one of those manufactures would build a working model of Stanley Meyer's miracle machine, that company would own the earth. Yet none give it a glance. Do they prefer bankruptcy over swallowing their pride and giving good ol' Stanley a tumble? Can you imagine getting 100 mpg in your Hummer?
I have to take the practical answer to that question, and believe that they aren't going to waste time and money on a pipe dream. The patents expires long ago, anyone with a machine shop could crank them out by the bucket load, at a very low cost. Where are they?
I hope I'm wrong. I want them to prove me wrong. My grocery bill will drop to nothing, as I will live out my life on a diet of crow, and smile with every bite......

Restorer,

Cars WILL run well on stolen lacquer thinner.....all the way to prison....or the burn ward at the local hospital, whichever comes first.

Remember...your mileage will vary.

Man, that gave me a laugh! Now, if the truth be told, those Saudi (or any of the other Middle East Arab nations) won't try to grow tomatoes unless they figure out a way to use tomatoes ** **** *******

THAT will be the really great part if we ever get off our collective butts and fix this import oil problem; they will loose at least 50% of their funding sources for Islamic terrorism....

Joe

Here is a new one on me. A city fleet near me just signed a contract to conver their fleet to Hythane fuel, a mixture of NG, and Hydrogen. Looks interesting.....
http://www.hythane.com/
I'm glad to see everyone expermenting, one of these days, we'll hit on something with great promice.
http://www.theautochannel.com/

Looks like my City link didn't post correctly, lets try again......
City of Barstow Takes the Lead on Alternative Fuels
City Signs Memorandum of Understanding With Ultra-Clean Fuel Provider Hythane

DENVER, April 20 -- Setting an example for other municipalities to follow, the City of Barstow, California has signed a Memorandum of Understanding with Hythane Company, LLC stating its intention to explore the use of Hythane(R) (a fuel blend consisting of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas) as a vehicle fuel for the city's fleet. Vehicles using Hythane(R) fuel enjoy even greater reduction of emissions than their already low-emission natural gas counterparts.

"With our signed Memorandum of Understanding with the Hythane Company, the City of Barstow has propelled itself into the fast lane of the Hydrogen Highway," said Barstow Mayor Lawrence Dale. "With more than 60 million travelers per year driving through our city, we are proud to be an early adapter of this technology that provides a clean energy resource. These new technologies provided by businesses such as the Hythane Company will result in a better future for us all," added Dale.

Barstow is located within the Mojave Desert Air Quality Management District (MDAQMD), which has a regional plan to encourage all high desert cities to move forward with alternative fuel projects. Jeanette Hayhurst, who is leading the project for the City of Barstow, credits the MDAQMD for their recent success with alternative fuel projects. Commenting on the city's adoption of alternative fuels, Hayhurst remarked, "We think it is good for the environment and it is a good move for the economy. We want to be a leader in preserving the excellent balance between environment and economics."

In 1999, the MDAQMD started the ball rolling by providing the initial funding for Barstow's liquefied natural gas (LNG) and liquefied to compressed natural gas (LCNG) station. "The City of Barstow is going above and beyond," said Violette Roberts, spokesperson for the MDAQMD. "We helped fund a natural gas station and they are taking it a step further to a cleaner fuel (Hythane(R)). They have gone the extra step by paving the way to bring this ultra-clean 80/20 fuel to the region. We encourage other cities in the region to follow their lead."

The proposed Hythane(R) System will convert the existing natural gas fueling station in Barstow into an "Energy Station" offering three types of clean fuel (natural gas, hydrogen and Hythane(R)) and integrate Hythane(R) into the existing natural gas vehicle fleet. "Hythane(R) is a tried and true technology for today that bridges us into the future," commented Roger Marmaro, Hythane Company President and co-founder. Due to fuel costs and lack of infrastructure, it is currently not feasible to deploy pure hydrogen technology. However, the creators of Hythane(R) technology believe that their fuel is an integral step toward the goal of increasing the use of hydrogen as a vehicle fuel. "We are building a transitional infrastructure," said Marmaro. "Hythane(R) offers an attractive alternative and the best part is that it is ready today."

The Hythane Company plans to continue the deployment of the system with projects currently underway in Colorado, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, New Mexico, New York, New Jersey and internationally in China and India.

About The Hythane Company, LLC

Headquartered in Colorado, the Hythane Company, LLC, is working to bridge the gap between conventional fossil fuels and the clean future of a hydrogen economy. Vehicles that operate on Hythane(R), a blend of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas, produce significantly lower emissions than those operating on diesel or natural gas. The company intends to deploy the Hythane(R) System, which completely integrates Hythane(R) technology into existing natural gas fueling stations and vehicles, in cities throughout the world. Hythane(R) can be used in all forms of vehicles and is especially suited for commuter buses, school buses, refuse trucks, and delivery trucks.

Hythane(R) is a patented fuel and the trademark is the property of Brehon Energy. The Hythane Company, LLC is grouped globally with two leading energy companies, Ireland-based Brehon Energy and Australian-based Eden Energy. Additional information about Hythane(R) is available at www.hythane.com.

For me Matt, I don't hate them. I just don't like change, never did. Besides, I have 3 1/2 years for retirement and for me to take on a $28,000 loan to save some gas would be plain stupid. My Dodge & Buick run fine doing around 15,000 miles a year between the two. In the future if I have to, then maybe I'll buy one. But it won't be Japanese, ................I have my reasons for that!

All of those costs have been exactly the same as for any other car since I bought my Prius, except my insurance (Erie) went down about $200/yr. because it's a lower risk vehicle than my old Nissan truck. There's nothing unique about the car except for the hybrid portion of the drivetrain. Most of the parts on the car are not even unique to the Prius, and are shared with numerous other Toyota models. It even runs on regular gas, uses 5W30 (unlike my father's Civic Hybrid) and all the other same fluids as any other conventional car, and even the light bulbs/brake shoes/belts/etc. are nothing more than typical Toyota. Most common maintenance items are covered by the Haynes manual, which is no thicker or more complicated than any other. Finally if you live a long way from a Toyota dealer for repairs these days you must be in a huge minority.

As for comfort, the seats are a little (and I mean only a little) firm, and there is a bit more road noise than you'd hear in a Camry or Impala (but much less than I noticed in a 2007 Focus I recently rented!). The amenities in the car (power everything, climate control, cruise, heated mirrors, 7 disc cd/MP3 player, etc.) are about on par with a well loaded LeSabre or Chrysler 300. The first thing my son said when we got in the car (on a 90 degree day in May) was that the A/C was much stronger than our Nissan's.

I have noticed three irritants about driving the Prius. First it's murder on front tires (probably because of the huge torque of the electric motor). Second the traction control is brutal, especially in wet weather (probably for the same reason), and needs to be taken into account when pulling into traffic. Third it rarely uses the engine in reverse, so pulling out of parking spaces at the supermarket is a silent affair. This has suprised many people who've walked right in front of the car while moving.

All in all, it's just a car. There's been no more complications to driving it than for any other car I've had, except I've had to get used to not buying gas so often.

Well, my boss came up with an excellent idea.....Since we sell wheat and other goods to the Opec members, why not just raise the price for our goods that we sell to them, until their lower the price on the oil they send us!

OK, last time: no shortage of oil (yet). This is not a crude oil supply problem. They're still pumping oil that should cost around $70/barrel. The incredible decline of the dollar and the speculators on the commodities exchange are largely responsible for the rest. In many ways, we're doing it to ourselves. I'll wager that your retirement fund and/or pension plan is buying oil futures for you and driving up the costs. You're probably making money there, all things considered, but not enough to cover your increased gas costs.

The price of oil hasn't gone up 400% in the last 10 years--it has gone up 50%. On the other hand, our dollar has completely tanked. 4 years ago, the Euro was worth $0.86 dollars. Today it is worth ~$1.58. This 50% decline in the dollar's value is similar all over the world with mosts currencies that are widely exchanged. In fact, the Euro has become the baseline currency of choice, replacing the formerly rock-solid dollar. This decline is caused by immense deficit spending by our government, making the bonds and notes our government issues less valuable (supply vs. demand--lots of bonds, not a lot of buyers except China, which should concern all of us a great deal). This is inflation, but it's so subtle most Americans don't call it that. But when marketable goods get more expensive all of a sudden, what else can you call it?

If our dollar were still as strong as it was 2 years ago, gas would cost $3/gallon. Not that this is as good as $1.50 gas from 2000, but the prices we're seeing today are the result of a myriad of reasons, the least of which is a shortage of oil, not drilling in our own areas, or robber barons in the Middle East.

President Bush actually asked his Saudi buddies to increase production to ease the price of oil. Unfortunately, this would be acting against their own interests and they did not do it, of course. Increasing production would drive down the price of oil and they would make less money. Would you do it because some dope from another country asked you to? Of course not, especially since supply isn't the real reason for price increases.

We can keep looking for phantom enemies (which we're good at) for our energy woes. We can wait for the government to solve the problem (they can't, no matter what they say). Or we can work on solutions for ourselves individually. I know which one I'm doing.

You could also vote for elected officials who won't pour billions of your hard-earned tax dollars into holes in the sand and use them to fix our domestic problems instead (I wonder if such goverment officials even exist?). Our thirst for revenge is going to bankrupt our country. Let's look out for our own best interests for a change, eh?

OK, with all the brouhaha with respect to hybrids, mileage, and alternative fuels, I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned Honda's little sleeper, the Civic GX, which uses CNG and even offers a home compressor that uses residential gas service for fueling.

Advertised MPG is 24/36 and CNG is selling commercially in So Cal for $2.60-2.90/gal. Using the home charger should cost a bit less. CNG has attractive features if the hybrid battery issue is of concern: Almost zero pollution. Very clean. Relatively cheap fuel (for now, anyway). Additional benefits are ability to use biologically and landfill produced methane. Long term ownership/maintenance expenses are significantly lower than gas powered vehicles owing to the very clean properties of CNG.

Points raised earlier about the changes we are facing are indicative of real-time experience (reduced traffic, moribund SUV sales, waiting lines for more efficient cars, etc.) This is really the tip of the iceberg. I see the US becoming much more like northern Europe in terms of lifestyle and transportation habits. We'll buy less, eat less, walk/bike more, demand effective public transportation, form more functional neighborhoods and shopping. I also think we'll see a return of home delivery for basic consumer items and services (e.g. milk, bakery, dry cleaning, groceries) just like in the 1930-1960s. This will help reduce short trips and multiple-car households.

In my opinion, the issue of 'hybrid hate' is more from being constantly lectured on it's virtues to the point of nausea. It is a good solution, and although a significant technical compromise in present form, may be the best current automotive approach, but it is not one for everyone. We're going to have a lot alternative solutions. The choice of one over the other should be one of solving personal needs and not an opportunity for motive system evangelism. The object is to reduce consumption.

It hurts now, but $4.00+/gallon gas will ultimately be a good thing for us.

Cheers,
JMC

Matt,

Most excellent points. The free market is self-correcting. It stings when we're the correctee.

The flip side of this is that the value of our outstanding overseas debt is effectively reduced 50% and our products and services are unusually affordable to others.

A discussion of the future of the Euro is probably not approprate here beyond the context of making European spares more expensive. The social and economic fundamentals in the EU15 in no way support the current valuation of the Euro. It will correct, and it will be nasty.

Cheers,
JMC

I'm disappointed in the hybrid and alternative energy vehicles. They have not lived up to the hype.

There may be a breakthrough coming in electric vehicles or hybrid or hydrogen. But I doubt it.

Rusty,

So what were your expections?

As for breakthroughs, expect the next major improvement to be batteries and drive train layout. Specifically, the industry will figure out how to make lithium batteries economically and operationally feasable. We will also see the advent of plug in recharge hybrids. Hand in glove with that will be the advent of a 'true' hybrid drive. This will use the hydrocarbon fuel engine soley to drive a generator to charge the battery and power the traction motors that move the car and provide regenerative braking. No more power-sapping automatic transmission and drive train. It's been working for Electro Motive for 70 years.

This isn't your father's Oldsmobile...
They don't build 'em like that anymore.
Thank heavens!

Cheers,
JMC

With all due respect, what does this have to do with old cars?

"Topic and posts do not fall within the purpose of the AACA Forum: Old Vehicles...PJH"
was affixed to a removed topic on a downturn on traffic (mine) and another (not mine) on the state of the auto industry.

After nearly 1,000 posts, I just want to make sure my take on "policy" is clear.

TG

TG,

Your take on policy is probably a lot like mine and other people who sent me a message after that post dealing with the state of the auto industry mysteriously disappeared as not being appropriate. Yeah, right.....

As for hydrogen generators and old cars, I have read one developer that says they can be ued on old cars with carburetors. If that is so, and an old car that gets 15 MPG on premium can suddenly get 22-24 on regular, I bet there would be a lot more of them being driven to car shows on Friday nights and to annual meetings half way across the country.

Hope THIS post doesn't get deleted. SNIP SNIP.....

Somehow I don't envision a hydrogen generator working on my 26 Chevy.

Bill,

Especially if you have your car in class judging...

TG

Wow....didn't think of a '26! THAT would be funny!

But a Buick 455 that gets 22-24 MPG on the highway would be a thing of beauty!

In every country except the U.S. since 2004 the Prius has come with a switch on the dash to do exactly this (albeit using the same pair of traction motor/generators at the power split device, not individual motors at each wheel). It was left off of U.S. models over battery life concerns due to typically longer trip distances. I've read reports that say low speed mileage is improved to as much as 100 mpg, but at a great reduction in performance.

The switch can be installed in any Prius by popping out a blanking plate and hooking it up to the connector there. It's a factory piece available worldwide, and can be bought online easily. Doing so voids all warrantees, however.