Recently, I have talked to the owners of two very reputable repair shops that are having very good luck with hydrogen generators for cars and trucks.

They are experiencing phenominal results; one Chevy S-10 shop truck used for an experimental test bed by one owner has gone from 20-22 MPG to 36-38 MPG. This shop is owned by a good friend of mine in Texas that I have known for years.

While talking to another shop owner here in Florida that has installed one on a Ford F-150 for a guy that drives 40+ miles to work one way, and he has gone to about 30 MPG.

The problems are availability and price; my Texas friend has a waiting list of 7,000 customers (including me) and the Florida shop is waiting for more kits to come in. And, the prices run from $1,500 to $2,500 per vehicle installed.

My question is this; have any of you had any personal experience with one of these systems? If so, what were your before-and-after MPG readings like?

If this is as good as it seems, I think I will buy some big car that someone is trying to unload, pay the $1,500 for the kit and use it for my 50-65 mile round trip commute in Texas. The safety and comfort of a big car and the mileage of a squirt, er, compact!


So, anyone know about this through personal experience?

(By the way, my friend in Texas is working to get the kits reproduced in large quantities, and Chrysler has talked to him about installing them in their NEW cars already at dealer's lots!)

Sounds like a crock to me. Where is the extra energy supposed to be coming from?

Those ridiculous claims have been around since the advent of the automobile. I can't believe any reputable mechanic would ever endorse such a scam. He was either pulling your leg, or he is in the wrong profession.
Every time fuel goes up, dozens of these claims pop up.
You can get the same 22% increase in mileage by buying a pizza and a six pack, and go sit on your patio. It provide the same increase in MPG, but it's a lot more fun.
Here are the plans to build your own generator, it only $1.54. Such a bargain.
One big draw back to the hydrogen cars GM and some others are building, the system operates under 10,000 PSI. Difficult to find tanks strong enough, that would hold enough hydrogen to get you around the block. Don't fall for these claims that are now all over the inner net....
A fool and his money, etc, etc......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250256742145&ru=http://search.ebay.com:80/250256742145_W0QQadgroup_idZ294908001QQcreative_idZ1369667811QQfclZ4QQfnuZ1QQfsopZ1QQkeywordZhydrogenQ20carQQoriginZhttpQ3aQ2fQ2fwwwQ2eupiQ2ecomQ2fOddQ5fNewsQ2f2008Q2f06Q2f04Q2fManQ5fsaysQ5fcarQ5frunsQ5fonQ5fwaterQ2fUPIQ2d20121212618274Q2fQQtestZGadgetQ5fKWQQtypeZQ7bifsearchQ3asearchQ7dQ7bifcontentQ3acontentQ7dQQfviZ1

here ya gooo....

The hydrogen-oxygen bond is one of the strongest chemical bonds known. That's why it's so loud when they recombine (a la the Hindenberg!). It takes a powerful input of energy to seperate the two atoms. Apparently these things claim to do just that, and to reclaim the energy via introducing the gasses into gasoline engine along with the fuel.

Given the inherent inefficientcies of a gasoline engine I cannot fathom how this would be done as a net gain in energy. Even if there were perfect efficientcy in the hydrogen extraction device the energy needed to get the hydrogen out of the water molecules would be extraordinary, and would have to come from somewhere. The efficientcy of that (probably electrical) generator would have to overcome the energy losses in the gasoline engine (mainly as heat) and it's own inherent/internal inefficientcy and the energy input source's (belt drive, wheel/generator, etc.) consumption. Finally to install it on anything but an antique car you'd need to be able to recalibrate the CPU and/or MAP & O2 sensors to keep from killing the engine in short order. A tall order indeed.

If these things worked at all well they'd be found in better places than eBay.

Necessity is the mother of invention. I had to switch from diesel to Natural gas. $5.00 per gallon to 63 cents. It did cost alot for conversion but I will get federal and state tax credits this year. My tanks hold 3600 psi. Things are possible, we just need to keep an open mind.

Like I said, these claims came from two reputable mechanics.

Here is a link to the video story done by KENS TV (CBS affiliate) in San Antonio:
http://www.mysanantonio.com/multimedia/KENSVideo/index.html?bclid=1515821416&bctid=1564557037

Like I said, if Steve didn't test it out for himself on his own shop truck and said it worked, I wouldn't believe it. This is definitely a case where I'm leaning towards believing this to be true based upon the credibility of the man I have known for years.

As Dana said about necessity, I also believe capitalism works. If there is a way to give people relief from $5 or $6 gasoline and make money while doing it (legitimately) then capitalism provides the incentive to do it.....

As for the question, my original question is has anyone actually had personal experience doing this?

Here is a link to a story about the hydrogen generator invented by my friend, Steve Gerhlein, at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio.

By the way, you may not have heard of SWRI, but I know they test many new products under contract from the big three BEFORE you ever see a product in your car or truck. This is not some snake oil outfit, they are a major research organization.

If they put their stamp of approval on this, the automotive world will be beating a path to San Antonio....

http://www.alt-energy.info/archives/550

Hydrogen generator that increases MPG being tested in San Antonio
May 25, 2008

Researchers at the Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio are testing a water fueled hydrogen generator that could be used with standard gasoline engines to increase mileage. The hydrogen generator, created by Steve Gerhlein, an auto mechanic in San Antonio , has installed a system in his cars that generates hydrogen using water mixed with potassium hydroxide. Mr. Gerhlein says that there are lots of plans for hydrogen generators in the internet, but most of them don’t produce enough hydrogen to help much. Also, Gerhlein changes the settings on the car’s computer to enable the engine to work better with the new fuel mix. He installed one in his wife’s Lexus SUV, which originally got about 14 miles per gallon in city driving. With his hydrogen generator the Lexus got about 19 mpg, but after tweaking the computer the SUV now gets 26 mpg.

The Southwest Research Institute is currently testing Gerhlein’s generators. They’re testing to see if the device does indeed work, but also whether the other claims are true - the hydrogen generator cleans out the engine, has less toxic emissions and will pass EPA standards.

Go here for the article at KVUE.com. http://www.kvue.com/news/state/stories/052108kvuegassaver-cb.16780e2a.html
They also have video of the original news article that was shown on KVUE, San Antonio

Ah, the 100 MPG carburetor steps into the 21st century. Welcome back, farmer Pogue.

The science may be good, but where the heck are repair shops and ordinary drivers getting raw hydrogen (or even the potassium hydroxide that they claim somehow produces hydrogen when mixed with water)? Potassium hydroxide doesn't produce hydrogen when it reacts with water. It explodes violently and creates very corrosive by-products:


Interestingly, hydrogen is a by-product of the creation of potassium hydroxide through electrolysis, but it is not released when it reacts with water.

Never mind that it's REALLY hard to contain hydrogen. As the smallest molecule, it slips through everything that isn't perfectly sealed, even intact rubber hoses and welded joints. And if it's being stored, is it being stored as a gas or a liquid? If it's liquid, it needs to be stored at -423°F. I doubt that you could create or store enough in gaseous form to last for more than a few miles. Just building the storage tanks for the stuff would require extremely expensive materials and quality control well beyond the corner garage's abilities.

Hydrogen is also extremely expensive to extract, both in terms of money and energy, which is why it is, at the moment, a net energy loser (that is, it takes more energy to make it than it produces when used). I don't think these systems are on-board electrolysis reactors--those still cost tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. And there's no way an auto's alternator can put out nearly enough juice to strip hydrogen away from oxygen. And if they're not using electricity, how does a simple chemical reaction do it in any kind of quantity that an automobile can use? And what happens when it mixes with the water that is a by-product of combustion, which is after the explosion, so it isn't helping the reaction at that point? Does it explode in the tailpipe?

Also, gaseous hydrogen has an extremely low octane rating (although, interestingly, liquid hydrogen has an octane rating of 130). Even combined with premium unleaded, it's going to detonate like hell in a car engine.

Actually, what makes me most skeptical is that this guy is able to manipulate the control systems on a wide variety modern cars (if he was doing only, say, older Fords, I'd buy it, but definitely not Lexus). Not only are the computers hard to access, the code is usually encrypted to prevent tampering. Heck, the shop where I used to work had GM Powertrain factory support and getting reprogrammed ECMs from them (the only source) took weeks. The equipment required just to interface with the relevant portions of the ECM's programming is typically OEM-only, and not available to the public or even to repair shops. It certainly isn't something you can hack using the OBD-II port and a laptop. If nothing else, this makes me doubt the veracity of your friend's claims.

Look, I'm not saying it's impossible, or that something like this won't ever be possible. Maybe it would work if the problems of acquisition and storage of hydrogen could be overcome (and these are physics-related, not technology limitations). However, given the current realities of the hydrogen extraction and storage process, into which automakers and other industries have invested hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars, I'm highly skeptical that a corner garage can come up with the answers.

But if you're going to go ahead with the conversion, I'm very curious to see the components of the kit you're going to have installed and to hear your results. At the very least, I'd just like to see how it operates. Maybe this really is the breakthrough we've been waiting for. I'd be more than happy to admit that I'm wrong if it works--hell, I'd buy three of them.

On the other hand, if he's managed to get 7000 people to each pony up $1500-2500 ($17.5 million), it really doesn't have to work (please tell me you haven't given him a deposit). With that much money, he could be gone before anyone realizes they've been had (I'm sure it would "take a few tanks of gas" before the benefits kick in). Be a skeptic, my friend. It'll keep you out of the poorhouse.

Or maybe I'll invest the $1.97 required to buy the plans on Ebay and build my own...

Matt,

I've seen some of the miracle-in-a-can kits sold on ebay and the internet, and agree that they look pretty bogus.

But, if SWRI is testing it, the device at least has a chance to be legitimate.

I think the thing that at least has the potential to make this one work is that he has developed a microprocessor to interface with the factory computer. I would think that introducing hydrogen into the airflow on a computer-controlled car would throw off several of the sensors and may do more harm than good.

If a system can interface with the factory computer AND generate enough hydrogen to be useful, it seems as if it is a good idea.

A piggyback computer actually sounds like a workable solution. Though I'm a skeptic, I'm always a hopeful skeptic. I really hope that the guys who say that oil is not dead dinosaurs but rather a natural by-product of the earth's inner workings and constantly renewing itself are correct. I hope the guys who say current oil prices are a bubble and it will settle down sooner or later are correct. And I hope this system works, too. Like I said, if it works, I'll buy three.

Please keep us posted on the results of testing. The seal of approval from an accredited organization will do a lot to dispel criticism and skepticism, mine included. If they're even looking at it, perhaps it has some merit.

Matt, actually hydrogen is released when potassium metal is added to water, forming potassium hydroxide. The reaction goes like this:

2 K + 2 H2O = 2 KOH + H2 (plus huge amounts of energy).

Potassium hydroxide is an extremely strong base, and will burn on contact in any serious concentration.

Funny story: In 10th grade I was in an advance high school chemistry class, and we were experimenting with metals and their reactions with water and acids. One reaction was globs of zinc to be added to mild sulfuric acid. Another was sodium metal (chemically identical to potassium metal) wrapped tightly in aluminum foil (globule-like with one small hole for water to get in) to be dded to water. My lab partner accidentally put the sodium in the zinc pile by mistake, and I promply tossed it into the test tube of sulfuric.

A three to five foot high hydrogen flame shot out of the test tube (the flames are clear and hard to see, I was later told that it nearly touched the ceiling). I immediately knew what happened and grabbed the tube, dumped it in the sink, and washed the reaction down the drain with massive amounts of water. All that was left behind was melted wad of aluminum.

The link says that hydrogen is generated "using" potassium hydroxide. It's likely only there in dilute amounts to act as an electrolyte, as shown in this demonstration of how this thing probably works. I'm sure that any reputable testing agency (which the SWRI certainly is) would look at this thing mainly as a way to debunk it. However there's always hope!

Matt,

Steve is the kind of guy that won't ask for a dime until it is installed and working in your car or truck to his satisfaction.

He hasn't asked for a penny from anyone.

And, as far as storage (I asked him what do you do with the hydrogen in the event of a major accident) he said there is no storage, the hydrogen is used as it is produced.

Actually, with the way gas prices are now, I'm surprised there isn't a LOT more interest in this. I saw something on ABC news last night about a guy who put a GM diesel engine into a Hummer and ran it on vegetable oil so it would get better mileage. Whoop-te-doo! And, oh, by the way, he charges $35,000 for that.

That is often the problem with our society. People complaining about gas prices get all the media attention. Politicians make speeches to try to grab some of the limelight. But the guys working on a solution are largely ignored until their results can no longer be pushed away.

I must have misread it, because you're absolutely right--the formula's right there in front of my face in the very Wiki entry I was reading. Duh. My mistake.

Although my chemistry is rusty, what does KOH + H20 create, which is, I think, what is going on with this proposed device? Is it

KOH + H2O <--> K + OH + H2O

or

2KOH + H2O <--> 2 H2O + K2O

Or is it

2 KOH + 2 H2O = 2 KOOH + 2 H2

In the first two, it looks like the potassium is just dissolving in the water but not reacting and releasing any hydrogen. I know the water shouldn't be on both sides if it is reacting with the KOH.

The third, if it's correct, looks like it might work if you have a big enough chunk of the potassium hydroxide and enough pure water. And if there is heat released by this reaction like with regular potassium, can you add heat to the KOOH and turn it back into KOH that you can use over and over, plus some free oxygen to boot? If so, I think I just solved the energy crisis forever!

Maybe there's some merit to this guy's device after all if the engine can be made to run with the addition of the hydrogen? Man, I wish I was smarter...

Matt,

Did you look at the news clips I linked to in a previous post?

Bingo! The release of the hydroxy (OH) ions into solution is why KOH is such a strong base/caustic.

So KOH + H2O is not creating hydrogen? Or once this reaction is complete, does it immediately proceed to the kaboom! stage of K + H2O and make hydrogen at that point?

I'm finding this chemistry refresher very enjoyable.

Apparently I'm not allowed to look at them from my office and don't get on the Internet much at home. I'll try to remember to have a look this evening.

No, I'm afraid at that stage you're talking about potassium ions, not unstable potassium metal. To get the postassium to re-combine with the hydroxide ions you simply need to evaporate the water. If the KOH solution is subjected to an electric current the hydrogen is released, which is how these things work (if they do). The potassium stays in solution.

Actually appplying a current to this solution will work, and the resulting gas is likely a significant aid to cylinder combustion. It's more a matter of whether the efficientcy of the device is high enough to overcome the inefficientcy of the internal combustion engine that burns the H2/O2/air/fuel mix that is produced (assuming that the whole thing works and doesn't grenade the engine! ).

I don't know if that will be case or not, but it is way out on a limb of assumptions that may or may not be true. I'm more certain that the efficientcy of a modern hybrid system almost has to be far better than anything this device would be capable of, and that it couldn't work in a hybrid because the engine doesn't run continuously. The charge/discharge efficientcy of the battery, and the efficientcy of the eletric motor(s) employed by a modern hybrid, are both way beyond an internal combustion engine's potential. It would take a technological miracle for this device to be useful in the coming hybrid world.

Packard,

Insults aren't necessary.

Your comments sound like the people that first heard about some new kind of flying maching coming out of Kitty Hawk, North Carolina made by two brothers who make bicycles in Dayton, Ohio.....

I've heard from two credible shops that have installed them, tested them, and said they work. It is now being tested by a very reputable research lab.

If it DOES work and IS available to boost mileage 30-50%, what do you say THEN?

Packard,

Don't be too shocked; we just had a unit (5th Air Force) fail a nuclear inspection because

a) one of the security guards was playing video games on his cell phone when one of the inspectors slipped up on him and 'killed' (simulated) him and the other guards,

b) one team of security forces didn't go to their assigned position during a simulated attack, leaving one entire side of a nuclear storage facility unguarded, and

c) another security forces team didn't clear a building properly during a simulated hostile situation, and the inspectors 'killed' (once again, simulated) the entire team.

In another situation recently, nuclear fuses were not properly marked 'top secret' and then ended up being shipped to Taiwaan.

And, finally, the B-2 bomber that crashed in Guam a few months ago was tied back to sensors that were overloaded with humidity. The ground crew knew how to get the humidity out of the sensor--turn on the sensor heaters for a while before you turn on the sensor--but that requirement wasn't in their tech orders, so they didn't do it every time. And, the country lost a billion-dollar aircraft.

So, in our video game world where I don't have to do anything I don't want to do or won't do anything that I think is 'unfair' the mission doesn't get done.

But, sooooo many of these young people know everything; just ask 'em.....

Reatta,

Actually, the B-2 mishap cost was $1,407,006,920.

The full mishap report is available at: http://www.acc.af.mil/accspecialreports/b-2accidentinvestigationboard.asp

It makes interesting reading and includes two videos and two CG simulations of the mishap. You hit the cause on the head: Basically a failure of communication, as this problem had been noted on a previous Guam deployment. What was incredible, is that during the investigation, it required talking to engineers that had been off the B-2 program for ten years before there was any concern registered about the need to recalibrate the static port sensors.

Packard,

Let alone math and chemistry... just try to find five of twenty high school students that can find Washington D.C. on the map or have any real idea of where Iraq is really located. It gets more interesting if the map doesn't have the names printed.

Oh, and the nuclear control issue was at the heart of the sacking of the Secretary of the Air Force and the Air Force Chief of Staff. SECDEF Gates is going to clean house.

Cheers,
JMC

I can assure you the hydrogen generator works. How do I know this? I have already fabricated 2 of them the first one is currently installed on my 1964 I.H. tractor which runs on diesel I noticed within minutes the engine ran smoother and when I took it in the field it seemed to have more power. The second one I have installed on my 2001 Crn. Vic Police Interceptor and I promise you it definitely made a difference from 20 mpg. to 35-40 mpg. depending on my lead foot and driving conditions. This unit cost me abt 40 bucks to build, it does not store hydrogen in fact it makes HHO gas from salt water by using electrolysis. HHO gas is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. All the electical can be suplied easily by your cars battery, and the gas is injected into the engines air intake between the air filter and the throttle body which by the way has vaccuum so your engine actually sucks in the gas as it is being produced no need for any storage.You can also add a map sensor inhanser which has a reostat to lean out your cars air fuel mixture giving you excellent millage. Do some more homework before you say it won't work. CAN'T NEVER COULD BECAUSE HE WOULDN'T TRY !

I was talking to a guy here that was doing the same thing you are talking about only he was mixing with natural gas on his conversion car. Said it worked real well.