Rick Marsh, can you post the info about '67 Buicks with radials? I would like to read it. I'm still wondering what brands the General was useing and when it started. Thanks.

There is a GM sticker on the inside of my 71 Riviera glove box door listing various sizes available for the car, including radials, but there is no mention of radials in any of the literature. In addition, none of the radials listed are "P" type radials. Frankly, I prefer bias tires on my old cars. They don't fall apart in six years, nor have I have experienced a ply separation on one, as I have so ofton done with radials. I had one bias blowout in my first 35 years of driving, and I've had umpteen blowouts and ply separations with radials. I had a set of bias 6.50x16 tires on my 39 Buick that lasted 35 years and then I sold them to a museum. I blew a truck radial with good tread on my Suburban that was original and six years old -- on the rear on I-95 at 70 mph pulling a trailer with the 39 in it. Tell me more about how safe radials are.

Dynaflash...I'm with you. My oldies have the correct tires too. My modern cars all have radials.

I took the new BF Goodrich radial TAs off my former Superbird and put on the Polyglas tires. I firmly believe that suspensions that were designed for bias plys...should have bias plys.

Some complain that the bias tires follow ruts in the road, or don't ride as well. I'd agree that you feel more of the road's imperfections...but I still prefer the way the car acts without the radials.

When my '72 Scamp was still a driver (hey...the A/C works!), one of the radials were damaged and Goodyear had stopped making the Eagle STs that were on the car. So, I opted for the Polyglas tires...and was very pleased.

To each their own I say, but at least in the AACA, I do think there should be a deduction (when applicable) for radials...or at least a bonus for the having the correct tires

I have had no problems using the bias on my 55 . With all the suspension parts / adjustments and shocks in working order and correct air pressure it doesn't follow the ruts in the road.

I just wonder if bias ply tires cost was reversed and cost less than radials would they be any safer??

I'm with you on that, Ron. I drove my '40 2,000 miles last year after completely going through the whole front end. The car does not wander at all.
Of course, if you want to drive your old car the way you normally would drive a new car then, yes, I guess it would be unsafe. But, I have a feeling that even if you had radial tires on your old car and drove it like a new car, that's still unsafe.

It amazes me when I am somewhere listening to someone trashing his bias tires to everyone. Upon closer inspection either the shocks are shot, bushing are non existent, the idler arm should have been replaced years ago, steering box needs a rebuild, etc. A new car would have issues let alone something 50 years old.

Ron I have to agree with you.Early cars where equiped with bias ply tires and suspenion was designed for bias. I have been trying to remember, I think 1969 Pontiac was the first car I saw with a plate on the dash that read Radial tuned suspension. Heck I didnt even know what they where talking about. On the subject of tires what is the fasication with red lines?? I saw at least 5,maby 6 cars at Cumberland with them. these where early 60s, but red lines where not available untill 1967. Go figure. Dick

Hey Dick, don't know when red lines started but my '68 Chevelle had them, she was built in October 1967.

Wayne

To quote my handy dandy referance chart rec. at my CJE in hershey last year REd lines as well as blues golds and whites where first offered in 1967, but where withdrawn after a short time as they developed weather checking problems They where available on Mustangs Cougars Camaros and GTO models for 1967

Not sure what your chart is telling you or why, but that's not quite correct. Just to list a few OEM options and standards. 1964 GTO ~ red lines. 1965-66 Mustangs ~ dual red lines. 1965 Shelby ~ blue dots. 1965-67 Barracuda ~ Goodyear Blue Streak (blue stripe). Gold stripes started in 1965.

Now just for fun. The first red line tire that I know of, was brought out by Firestone in 1917-18 on their Non-Skid tires. Well, maybe it was actually a red side wall, but what the heck.

Rick I wont say you are wrong,but I do say the information I have comes to me direct from AACA continuing ed. instructors and is recognised as accurate. I do think red line tires where first used in 1967, this is what I have been tought. As always should a question arise the owner should be asked for documentation. with out fac. documentation the tire may be deamed non authentic and the correct point deduction should be taken. If you have such documentation please bring it to the atn.of the aaca. Thanks Dick

Dick,

Believe me when I say, that the small list I mentioned above is not unveiling any big secrets from the darkened depths. It's all fairly common knowledge and the AACA and it's judging system is well aware of it. The earlier than 1967 red lines, along with the other tires properly placed on the vehicles I mentioned, have been winning their awards in the AACA for a long time. Again, I'm not opening any new hidden worlds here, just bringing it to your attention with what you may be mis-interpreting on that sheet.

Rick I must confess Im not the shapest pencel in the box. I do have problems with spelling, but learned to read and comprehend over 60 years ago. A instructor for CJE must have a min. of 50 judging credits.He then submits a request to be a volenteer along with a lesson plan on the subject he wants to teach. All is reviewed by AACA befor he is allowed to teach. As I said, the chart I was given at Hershey says red lines where first offered in 1967. Being a bull head I will honor that chart untill Hershey or a certified instructor tells me differant. No offence ment. Dick. WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS,READ THE DISTRUCTIONS

Dick, and Rick, if memory serves me, doesn't the '64 GTO sales brochure show redline tires? I know the judgeing manual is supposed to be gospel, but it also lists a '69 Camaro LT-1, which didn't exist until '70. So I wouldn't go completely by the manual.

I have never seen anything in writeing about red line tires except the 2 page artical I was given at the cje class in hershey. That dos not mean nothing else exist.I bet thats the reason for the rule,if in doubt as for documantation. I have had more than one person tell me 65GTO did not have red lines.

Choc,

Yes, I have seen that about the '69 LT-1. What can I say? And yes, the reds are in the 1964 GTO brochure. 775X14 Redlines, white walls and black.

Dick, I've taken it as far as I can. You hold on to that paper that you have and go from there. However, I still believe you are not reading it correctly. I'm fairly certain I know who put that paper together and if so, I hold a ton of respect for him and consider him my friend. Anyways, this entire conversation of what year had or used what in tires, is not as complicated as you may think and you can look all of this up for yourself and learn if you wanted to. And if you happen to be a chassis judge working with these year ranges, I really hope you do some homework on this issue before you go hitting the show fields and not just be counting on asking every car owner for the documentation because you didn't. Good Luck!

Rick the paper and class was put togather by Eric Marsh. Im going to look for his e-mail and pop a question off to him. I dont want to make a deduction where non is called for. You have raised my interest,guess its time to check records at the resource ctr.

I can say without hesitation that 7.50-14 red stripe bias-ply tires were part of the original 1964 Oldsmobile 442 package. Starting mid 65 they were no longer mandatory, but were a popular option from 1965-69. I have too much Oldsmobile-issued information including the April 1964 442 press kit to convince me otherwise.

Saw plenty of Mustangs with dual redlines in 1966. I was ten years old but a certified car freak even then, and I noticed things like that.

Splitting hairs over things like this is one reason I have all but retired my cars from competitive judging. 2003 was the last time I had one judged by OCA scoring, and they've never been point judged at an AACA meet. I have the documentation- probably the most complete sets of 1964, 1969 and 1974 Oldsmobile factory documentation extant- and it was used to restore/maintain them. Any more I just don't have the patience to argue with a judge over what is or is not correct on my car- I figure the burden of proof is on the judge to prove it wrong, not on me to prove it correct.

Give me a cruise night or tour any day of the century.

Glenn I stand corrected, I understand 442 Was the first with red lines,butI think they where offered as an option for mid 65 models.Me thinks add.research is required. More later. As Ike said, I will return.

Rocketraider, In my limited experience, the Class Judging Committee is very interested in fairly and accurately judging all cars. There is always room for improvement of the judging system, like any system, which requires everybody helping when they see an error.

If you have documentation of items that correct errors in the Judging Guidelines, please contact the VP of class judging and provide copies of those documents so that the committee can update the judging guidelines.

Sorry but it just does not work that way. It is far easier for each owner to have the documentation for their car than it would ever be for teams of judges to have to lug that around. Can you even imagine what that would be like at Hershey? There isn't a wagon big enough for all that and you know the AACA isn't going to pay for donkeys to haul it around.

And it should never involve an arguement on either side of the clipboard. A question is asked and answered. Period.

Good answer Mc, why didnt I think of that??Hey, theres a country song with that title. Seriously, good ans.

Susan,

I remember a time when the judges use to know the cars they were judging. From the sounds of this conversation, today must be more geared in asking the vehicle owner for proof of everything. There's more to being a judge then just collecting chips.

Rick, You know that judges do not ask for proof of everything. It is a gross exaggeration to imply that they do.

And once upon a time there were less cars to judge and more people to do it. People that have now passed on or due to age or health issues have given up judging and therefore are no longer on the field to help new judges.

And it is a fact that judges do not always get any of the class choices that they have put down. When that happens judges have no choice but to ask owners for documentaion on items that they are not acquainted with.

Every owner that has that information helps the training process.

And I for one have yet to serve with anyone that just showed up to collect a chip. We all have better things to do with our money and our time than that.