I just returned from a trip to Lubbock, Texas and towed home a 1950 76-R parts car. My dependable 1986 Dodge 1/2-ton truck with 318 and 130,000 miles got between 8 and 9 miles per gallon on this trip--much worse than usual after new spark plugs, new plug wires, new fuel pump. I'm not spending another dime nor another minute on it. It's up for sale as of right now.

I'm not able to spend $10,000 or $30,000 for a fancy diesel pickup like some people. The gas situation is just going to get worse. My *&%(*& Republican congressman thinks the answer is to give the oil companies more tax breaks...!! Sorry, i couldn't resist a dig, and he actually believes that! Anyway, what do you guys recommend as a good tow vehicle for around $5000 to $7000? I know I've got to be in the used truck market for that price. For the last 10 years, I've bought clean, well-maintained, older pickups for $2000-$2500 and gotten 1 to 4 years of good service out of them before they need big bucks spent. Have tried them all--Dodge, Ford, Chev. I think Dodge trucks of 1994 and newer are just plain ugly. I prefer 1993 and earlier Dodge, but can't live with the fuel thirst. Had a 1995 Ford 300 6-cylinder with 5-speed which was wonderful, but transmission forks wore out at 160,000 and that was big $$$$. My 1982 Chev. Silverado with a 305 was a wonderful truck, but never did better than 13 mpg even with no load! I haul big, heavy Buicks like the rest of you. What's the answer???

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338
Sherman, TX

If you can't afford a diesel, the next question I would ask would be how much do you need a truck? Is it for occasional hauling only? Do you need the box? I'm just wondering if it might be worth considering not getting a truck at all and looking at paying to have stuff hauled or renting one when it's necessary.

Just a couple thoughts.

Pete, I get around 13-14 with my 96 Silverado 1500 (5.7) on the road pulling + - 5600 lbs (4400 lbs of roadmaster and I'm guessing 1200 lb of trailer). I keep it in overdrive except when in mountains. Only problem I ever have with the truck is brakes and that is probably from pulling cars all the time. I had a chance to buy a 96 Siverado 2500 with 65,000 miles on it for 7,000 but couldn't afford it right now. It's an extended cab, 2 door,, burgandy, full 8 ft bed,two owner, very clean southern truck. I can see if the guy still has it if you want. Not sure what the gas mileage is on it though.

To me, the MINIMUM truck for towing is a HD2500, rather than the "normal" 2500 or 3/4 ton rated truck. The HD is more like a 3500 in brakes and chassis, but not a full 3500 per se. These used to be the 8600 GVW trucks rather than the 7200 GVW normal 3/4 ton, with 8 lug wheels. Getting the upgraded brakes and chassis means less costs in the long run in that area.

Usually, a 5.7L V-8 with a 3.73 rear axle (the larger tires somewhat offset the deeper axle ratio) with an OD automatic (the 4L80E, basically a THM400 OD electronic control). Add the factory tow package with the 7-way wiring harness (and appropriate plug-in for a brake control for the trailer) plus the engine oil and additional trans cooler and you'll generally have a reliable tow vehicle to handle much more than a heavy Buick and do it for a good while.

A friend's Dad had a Ford F-150 with the 5.4LHO V-8 (middle 1990s or so). They took a car (a Dodge Super Bee) to a show in OH one year. On the way, through KY, it was 85mph at the bottom of the hill to make it up the other side at 40mph. And about 8 mpg average. Obviously, not the best tow vehicle for even a one-car enclosed trailer situation! When they got back, it was traded for an F-250 (8600 GVW) 4WD extended cab with the 460 V-8. Next year, same trailer, similar contents, same route. The bigger engine did better in the hills of KY and got better fuel economy doing it. On paper, the F-150 was not overloaded, but on the road it was clearly inadequate for anything other than reasonably flat terrain when towing.

The "price of admission" to the world of diesel pickups is usually taken by the first owner, but they will have better resale $$$ down the road, typically. This is where it can get a little tricky in maintenance costs, though. More oil per oil change with an oil filter that is generally more expensive--sometimes close to $50.00+ per oil change (especially for the PowerStroke and Cummins). Finding an older diesel (which has only been in travel trailer tow use by the previous owner) can be a little tricky, but it does happen. Pre-fat-fendered Rams can have frame crack issues near the steering gearbox, even on the D150 gas rigs (but it's a "known issue").

But, I have had some friends who've had earlier Cummins Dodges which got past 20mpg on the road (empty), some reports of 25mpg+. If we didn't have the large number of diesels in recent history, there would not be nearly as many HD2500 4WD trucks on the road today--by my best suspicion as the owners couldn't afford to feed similar gas rigs. I've also seen some owners of NEW Dodge diesels trade them in on a Chevy gas rig right after the first oil change (when they found out how much it did cost). Lots of different angles and not ONE "best universal" angle per se. Of course, if you need something to pull "anything", you end up with a diesel of some manner and consider the oil change cost "part of the territory".

A co-worker had a Ford V-10 V-8 (not even 400 cid!) with a 5-speed manual which he claimed got 20mpg on the road empty. Probably a normal F-250 and not the F-250 HD. Without wanting to pay the price of admission to the world of diesel and having something easier to work on, one of the Dodge V-10 gas rigs (somewhat rare as most wanted the diesels!) might also be an option.

Price it both ways as diesel's now past $4.00/gallon in many places as gas is about 50cents/gallon cheaper. Getting a couple more refineries built and also getting the futures traders OUT of the oil market MIGHT help the total situation, but when there's even a hint of a hiccup somewhere in the world of available oil supplies, the price/barrel shoots upward in spite of more gasoline reserves than at any time in recent history! Personally, we've heard the same old song-'n-dance about "driving season" driving up demand (on the belief that supply and demand REALLY controls the price of gasoline as in the past) is the reason for the prices being what they are, or the change-over from winter gas to summer gas, or the demand of heating oil affecting things, or whatever seems "popular" as a justification.

As for the fuel economy of the "working 318", I remember when we had 454 3/4 tons that MIGHT get 8mpg empty and 4-6mpg "when working". Similar with Ford 460s, from what I recall. Of course, they did that without really breaking a sweat, so to speak. And I recall one particular '78 Chevy HD 1/2 ton (350 V-8 with 3.42 rear axle) that got 13.5mpg on its first tank of fuel and went down to 11-12 (consistently, no matter how it was driven) after that). And the '87 Chevy 1/2 ton 5.7L TBI V-8 that I could average 20-21mpg with in my general runnings around at work (highway/freeway) with a 3.08 rear axle and OD automatic (by driving conservatively and using the cruise control at 60mph, back when the speed limit was 55mph).

Key things for a tow vehicle . . . enough engine (even if it might seem too big for other uses than towing--plus having sufficient power to drive out of a possible "whip" situation), enough oil coolers, enough axle ratio (especially with taller tires and an OD trans), enough brake (even with a brake controller), and enough "chassis". What you're hauling is somewhat precious, so it deserves somehthing better than a "min-spec" tow vehicle.

Happy shopping!
NTX5467

As a "point of reference" situation . . . many of us remember when gas cost less than 25 cents/gallon. By that measure, even $1.00/gallon is "outrageous"! Yet younger people will consider the current higher prices in the same orientation we remember the 25 cent/gallon prices, I suspect. Allegedly, even adjusted for inflation, regular gasoline should now be about $1.75/gallon or so--which it is NOT.

Just some thoughts,
NTX5467

What a great way of putting it.

I've been wonderin what the correlation is between gas/diesal mileage efficiency and cost of diesel over the cost of gas. Don't I remember a time when diesel was actually cheaper than gas??

The owner of that 96 did mention that when he took the truck in for brakes that standard 2500 brakes would fit and they had to use 3500's. So maybe it was a HD? Would the fact the bed is a full 8 ft also suggest it is a HD.

The truck didn't have a CD player, just a cassette, I do remember that...

Lamar - the 8' bed is just a truck configuration...even a young whipper-snapper like me can remember when that was a regular box...the other option being the 6.5' short box. Now 6.5' is regular and 8' is long - I think that's due to urbanization of trucks.

I don't know the details since they don't like to publish fuel economy for the diesels. When I got Max, I was told that the diesel was considerably better for fuel efficiency than the gas engines. On top of that, other than wind issues, the fuel economy typically doesn't change regardless of what you are doing with it (city driving drops it, but highway isn't much different between empty and hauling a car).

Typically, my experience has been that diesel is cheaper than gas, but that inverts in the winter.

I'll do the math for you guys later, since I'll be giving you metric numbers, but I have to finish my coffee and dust off the '41 to go for lunch with the local car club. Max now has about 34,000 kms, 700 engine hours, and the computer hasn't been reset, so over its life, it has averaged 16.5 l / 100 km. On Friday I went for a drive...cruise was set about 106 km/hr and when I filled, it worked out to 21.5 mpg (Imperial gallons) - there's a factor of 1.2, so 25.8 mpg using US gallons.

I did the math...over the course of Max's life thus far, the overall average fuel economy is 17.1 mpg (Imp) or 20.5 mpg (US). According to my service guy, there is also a point where the Duramax will switch to get around 22-23 mpg (not sure which gallons he was talking about though). It isn't exactly break-in, but sort of. On some trucks this happens quickly, on others, it occurs much later.

This truck has some highway miles, but the majority of time is spent city driving. It has hauled about 2000 lbs of boat around this part of the world (generally flat)...loading and unloading the boat can result in a lot of idling. I also ice fish with this, so sometimes plowing through snow and getting stuck. Also, it spends virtually all the winter in four wheel drive as it is almost impossible to distribute the weight well enough to have traction in our ice / snow.

So, ultimately, even if you have to go to a bit older truck, finding a diesel would be a good option.

Good luck with figuring out how to best meet your needs Pete. Perhaps a lottery ticket is the answer

Oh boy's, Diesel is over $4.40 a gallon. Gas is around $3.65. So, it's over 20% more. I've been towing for years. I have a 3500 Silverado now and LOVE IT. But, I use it sparingly. I can get almost 20 MPG if I keep it around 60. Towing gives me about 9 - 10. I tow an open and enclosed with about the same mileage. I used to have a Suburban 2500 that I used for towing. The Suburban had 455 pounds of torque. "Hulk" (my 3500) has 650 pounds of torque. But honestly, the Suburban was just fine towing the enclosed trailer with car. And, the towing mileage was the same as the Diesel. And worse, I think the premium for "Hulks" engine was like $6,000. But, the thought was that I'd never need to buy another truck. I was thinking (and still do) that the Isuzu engine in there will be good for a very long time. We'll see.

If you can buy used trucks for $4,000. Who cares what it is. Towing will yield the same mileage. Stick with gas.

Gary

One advantage to the DuraMax is that it takes 10qts of oil for an oil change, versus the 15qts or so for the PowerStroke or Cummins. According to the www.bobistheoilguy.com website, at the factory-recommended 10K miles oil change interval, even normal 15W-40 oil is not "beat up" enough to need changing at that mileage (which indicates a good internal engine design). So, generally, 10K mile oil changes on normal 15W-40 diesel-spec motor oil is just fine for those engines.

And then there was the time that some "kids" changed the fuel filter and didn't prime it right, using some "fumy gas" to get it to fire off . . . they forgot that a diesel has no throttle valves and turning the ignition "off" doesn't affect anything on a "compression-fire" engine. Seems like they ran for cover about the time the rpm peaked. And it lived to run another day, once it got towed to the dealership for a checkout.

Back in the 6.5L Turbo days, a friend had a '91 Chevy CrewCab Dually. He hooked onto his 30' enclosed trailer (filled with a freshly-restored SuperBird) and headed to OH for a show. He clicked the cruise on when he left Fort Worth and generally ran 65mph all the way. Towing mpg was about 12mpg. Before he left, we added a large trans cooler to keep the electronic THM400OD cool enough--he said it kicked out of OD only once. He was very pleased (of course, he had several Ford 460s and Chevy 454s that got 4mpg loaded on the highway, so 12mpg was in the "economy" realm of things. And, one night he and another car club member raced their trucks . . . on the freeway access road . . . Chevy vs. Dodge . . . we heard the roar . . . as the Chevy edged out the Dodge . . . but a "win" is a "win" even if it's only by inches.

Enjoy!
NTX5467

Its been a long day guys, I read this thread and have a simple reply "a horse".

It suddenly occurs to me that a mid-1990s Roadmaster station wagon might be a good tow vehicle, since they get up to 25 mpg on the highway, and with the back seat down, could carry almost as much as a truck with the added advantage of keeping everything weatherproof and locked up when outside overnight. Does anyone have experience with towing a dual axle car hauler with these wagons?s

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Pete,
I have no experience towing with a Roadmaster wagon but I owned one, great car. Make it a 94 to 96 with the LT-1 motor and the factory towing package. I have heard of many people using these to tow cars but I would wonder if they are heavy enough? A minimum upgrade in my opinion would be beefed up rear control arms and sway bar from BMR or Hotchkiss.

On a trip last Summer through the mountains of PA my 87 fuel injected gas engine GMC 454 logged 7-8 mpg towing a large early Lincoln in an extra tall box trailer with a gross weight of about 10,000 #. The extra heavy duty 3/4 ton handled the load very nicely but stopping left a lot to be desired on this customer trailer which may not have had a trailer brake adjustment for many miles.
I too agree that if you are going to tow over 5-6,000 # you need at least a HD 3/4 ton.
The return trip was without trailer or car and the truck got only 11-12 mpg which was a bit of a disappointment.
My customer with this same trailer towed the unit with Lincoln to Florida this March with a Ford 450 turbodiesel and got only 11 mpg. A disappointment as compared with his previous 350 Ford diesel which did about 13.
Diesels will do better than gas engines with the same towload but you've got to drive a lot of miles to make up for the 5-6,000 premium for the diesel.
Since I don't tow more than 4-5,000 miles a year I'm willing to keep a well maintained older truck around just to tow. The everyday mileage with a HD 3/4 ton in local driving is awful-probably 8-10 mpg so I just don't use this truck except for towing.
My regular drive is a Honda CRV getting between 23-28 mpg.
Marty Lum

"Cars" used to be the tow vehicles of choice, particularly the heavier weight Lincolns and such, which started with a higher curb weight than other lesser vehicles, which also meant (usually) bigger brakes and such. In some cases, they didn't need a "tow package" other than to spec the slightly lower 3-series axle ratio and add the weight-distributing hitch to the car (with "arms" that went almost to the back axle on the car's frame, as I recall) and appropriate trailer brake controls.

One reason that leaf-spring rear suspension cars are preferable to coil spring rear suspension cars is that the additional load of the trailer is spread out more on the vehicle's frame/chassis--one reason the early '70s Chevy Longhorn pickup came with leaf springs rather than the normal coil springs). Plus, the leaf springs, by their nature, also have some lateral sway control "built-in" to the mix, too.

I have some road tests from a trailer magazine of the later '80s. As for larger cars (in this case, the "square" rwd Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham sedan of that era with a 5.0L TBI Chevy motor), they might get 20mpg on the road during normal driving, but "tow mpg" is going to be pretty much in the single digits. Seems like there were some recommendations to not tow in OD, but some people did with few issues--which also might be model-year specific as there were MANY upgrades to the THM700 trans during that time).

On using cars for towing, taking special note of the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight is important. This would be the weight of the tow vehicle, plus the weight of the trailer and the "cargo" on the trailer itself.

Using a station wagon for a tow vehicle can be better than a similar sedan as the roof of the wagon might well serve as a wind deflector for the trailer, which can help tow mpg, possibly. But you can achieve the same thing with a full size van.

I suspect that finding a Roadmaster or Caprice wagon with the factory tow package AND a 3.42 rear axle ratio might be a daunting task. As the 3.42 is lower than what normal wagons and sedans had, it will drop the fuel economy of normal driving but probably increase the tow mpg a little. Plus keeping the engine up in the more meatier part of the torque curve when towing in "D" rather than "OD".

Perhaps you might find a used "Tommy's" aluminum trailer with the front air deflector?

If you consider that towing a trailer is highly related to the frontal area and increased wind resistance involved, it's going to take a certain amount of horsepower to overcome "the wind" with tow weight being more secondary in a highway situation. Doesn't matter if it's an underpowered 5.2L Chrysler V-8 or a strapping turbo diesel, the horsepower requirement for flat-land towing is pretty much the same for any vehicle with a given size/type of car trailer. I suspect that's why the tow mpg of the vehicles mentioned is pretty much the same (whether gas or diesel, with diesel generally a little higher). Where the bigger engines come into their element is in the hills where the cruise control keeps things under control (and the Allison 6-speed automatic has a program for engine braking on the downhill sections of the road).

To me, it would be more cost effective to address issues with the rolling resistance and wind resistance of the trailer. Tire choice, for example, plus a front aerodynamic shield in front of the vehicle on the trailer would be places to start. Then possibly synthetic wheel bearing grease? Then, the weight of the trailer itself and what it's really rated to safely haul.

The drag racers (who haul their own cars to the races on trailers, usually enclosed) I've talked to the last couple of days seem to think the little 5.2L Chrysler V-8 was doing pretty well to get as good of towing mpg as it seems to. One mentioned using a borrowed Chevy crew cab dually with the GM 8.1L Vortec gas motor and Allison automatic and getting about 9-10 mpg towing cross country (at about 75mph), which coincided with another drag racer who had a similar rig. Diesels might get another mpg or two and do the job a little easier, but at a cost in maintenance and purchase price. Therefore, I don't see a "magic vehicle" that will get 25mpg empty and 15mpg towing a heavy car on any kind of trailer rated to carry that weight--especially if you customize the vehicle to be a better tow vehicle than when it left the factory.

As fuel prices escalate, using trucks will probably become more need-specific than "desired by the owner" to use as daily driving vehicles (not used in a business per se) with consumers moving more toward smaller multi-purpose vehicles for their daily use vehicles. Unfortunately, there is no real "good alternative" in a society which goes to Home Depot or Lowes to purhase home improvement/landscaping items or needs a pickup truck bed to carry an ATV out to the deer lease (or similar).

Another alternative might be to look for a used Suburban that was used to pull a travel trailer by the previous owner. Hopefully with the later TBI V-8 and the 3.42 rear axle which the 1/2 ton trailer package ususally came with. Finding one with the 8.1L gas V-8 in a HD 3/4 ton version will yeild one "war horse" that can carry 5-6 people, their gear, and the trailer they will live in at the deer lease . . . all at once (orig window sticker just past $40K when it was new). At least, you can justify feeding something like that for what it is AND can do rather than a 1/2 ton chassis vehicle or a car.

Just some thoughts,
NTX5467

At the shop where I used to work, we used a '95 Chevy 3500 dually crew cab to tow an enclosed 2-car trailer. The engine was bone stock and it would run at 80 MPH all day without a problem and pull down around 12 MPG. Not awful considering it was probably pulling 10,000 pounds in a box. I was always astounded by how well it worked with a stock 454.

My Dodge 2500 4x4 is one of the 8700GVW models, and is basically a dually without the double rear wheels. The parts are expensive as hell and general maintenance on the suspension and brakes is a royal pain, but it pulls everything I've thrown at it, even with a (very) puny gas 360 in it. It gets about 11 MPG empty or full, oddly enough. I pulled my Mustang to the track on a trailer and it ran at 65 MPH, still getting its standard 11 MPG. Of course, I don't drive it unless it's earning its keep--no pleasure cruises or commuting in that thing. However, acceleration is horrible; the 360 isn't nearly enough engine for that much truck. Once it's up to speed, it does a decent job. Hills suck, and I often end up grinding along in second gear. It'll move anything and everything, just not very quickly. I often wish for the torque of a diesel and will seek one out for my next truck.

If you can swing it, I'd recommend a diesel, even if it's a reach financially. All things considered, I think the costs will be about equal (more expensive fuel but better mileage, more expensive oil changes but longer life). The towing abilities will be vastly superior. The only difference is the buy-in up front, but diesels last a long time, so mileage and/or age is less of a factor.

Pete:

I would never tow anything with a car. It's just not the same. But that's me. I've towed some expensive things around and have had many instances of having to slam on the brakes, etc. You need a truck to tow and the longer the better. And, even with my 3500, I never tow without weight distribution bars.

Worst case, search the race magazines for tow vehicles. You can usually find some good cheap deals.

One thing is for sure, the more you tow, the more mishaps you'll have from flat tires and on. Something always seems to happen. Ask Lamar! Again, I'd rather be in a truck than a station wagon when that happens.

Gary

Pete,

I bought a 1992 Dodge diesel dually from Texas 5 years ago for $6150. I drove it back to N.Y. and averaged 22 mpg empty. It has the 355 rear end. You can buy the '91 to '93 Dodges for reasonable money now and trucks down south are not only plentiful but they're rust free which means cheaper prices for a better truck. Diesel prices are high now so I don't know how that will offset the mileage but I do know diesels last longer and the Cummins is a great torque producing engine. I love my Dodge. It's a work horse. If you like those years I suggest buying a southern truck. They're very common in Texas, Florida and Oklahoma where people have horse ranches. I like the dually for the added safety and stability of having that extra wheel if one blows out when pulling a load.

Pete,

Go with a diesel if possible. I haven't checked the market but I wouldn't be surprised to see some good deals on used diesels. I don't know what your paying for diesel fuel in Texas but here in So CA it is $4.95 and that's actually down from last month. I pull the 47 Buick woodie in an enclosed trailer (total weight about 8000 lbs) and usually get 14+ mpg. The only exception was towing to Seattle last summer when I averaged 11+ mpg due to all the steep mountain ranges both ways. I have a 2001 Dodge Ram 2500 which is used mostly as a second car (41000 miles in 8 years). In city driving w/o the trailer I average 13 mpg. On the road w/o the trailer I can average over 20 mpg if I stay under 75 mph. These things are built for power, not speed. If I kick it up to 85 mph the mileage will drop to the 17-18 mpg range.

For towing, you can't beat a diesel. It has it's drawbacks as a daily driver; noisy, hard riding and the current cost of diesel fuel. I also feel it's important to with a 3/4 or 1 ton rather than a 1/2 ton, particularly if you're towing old Buick Roadmasters.

Sid Munger
BCA #2257
47 Buick Estate Wagon