The vehicle in the photo on this website ( http://mysite.verizon.net/res8htys/id1.html ) has been tentatively identified as a 1910 or 11 Renault Town Car and the chauffeur is my grandfather, Herbert M. Rice. The photo was taken most probably in New York City.

According to family lore he worked for John Jacob Astor at some point and I would like to either prove or disprove the story. Naturally, I would rather prove that it was true but would be happy to find out one way or the other.

My questions are 1) is this the correct identification of the car; and 2) do you know if such a vehicle was owned by J J Astor?

Thank you for any information you may be able to share or a resource you could point me to.

Kathleen

It looks like a Renault. Do you have a larger copy that you an post?

J.J Astor went down with the Titanic in 1912. some have speculated that there is a Renault auto in the hold. Can't tell much about the photo however.

Here it is.

I have pondered over the thought of this Auto for years. After seeing many documentarys on the Titanic, I doubt there would be much left to the body of this car considering the rate of disintegration since the discovery of its resting place in 1985. There may be some brass left but the engine block, trans, and axles would most likely be very rough and the body would be almost non existent.

What a thrill it woud be to see it though.
The shipping industry used manifests to document pasangers and cargo on ships. I bet you could find out the information on the cargo of this famous ship though Historical Records. I would venture to guess that the Titanic historical Society, Inc. would be the place to start a search.

Kathleen,

You don't ask the easy questions, do you? Here's what I would do first.

Establish that Mr. Rice lived in NYC or surrounding areas by consulting city directories. Chauffeurs were part of the household often living on-prem, so it's hit or miss.

Then find out where J.J. Astor's private papers are housed. If they exist, there may be a household list of servants. His will, which is (maybe or not) a matter of publc record would be another spot to look, likely in Probate Court or the NYC Public Library.

At the time of Mr. Rice's supposed employ, Astor was going thru a messy divorce with his wife and a subsequent marriage to Miss Madeleine Force, much younger. It's all over the newspapers of the day. She survived the Titanic, and went on to marry again (& again & again & again.)

You're going to have alot of fun searching for this, but it will take time digging.

Don't Give Up the Ship!

TG

Thanks to all who have replied to my inquiry so far!!! And especially to Leif for the larger photo. Glad to know it IS a Renault. I'm not a car buff so have been looking at tons of photos.

In answer to some of the questions raised:

Yes, Herbert lived in NY from 1905 until his death in 1943. I have plenty of documentation and proof of this. So, he was in the right place at the right time.

I have been in contact with the Astor librarian at the Beechwood Estate but nothing concrete has been found.

Have contacted some car museums thinking someone might have records of the vehicles owned by the rich and famous. Astor owned quite a fleet of vehicles according to old NY Times articles but haven't found a list of them yet.

As far as I've been able to find, the Renault that went down on the Titanic did not belong to Astor and was a different model. While that would be great to make a connection between the photo and the Titanic car, I believe it is a whole different car. My main focus is whether Hebert worked for Astor or not.

I'm trying to find records through the NY DMV and whatever agency licensed chauffeurs but no luck so far. Especially with the privacy laws and lack of records dating that far back.

I won't 'give up the ship' and keep those ideas coming in!!
Thanks folks and Happy New Year!!

I can't check my files until Thursday but I'm 99% sure I have a photo of the car taken in the 1940's. I think I listed it on eBay without a sale.

This car is a mate to the one that went down with the Titanic in April of 1912. As you can see, there are considerable differences to the "Astor" car. The brand new car on the Titanic was owned by William Carter. Steve Arnold, Colorado Springs, purchased a 1912 Renault town car (#34021) and faithfully recreated the detail that was in Carter’s car using historic documents, including Carter’s Lloyds of London insurance claim.

The auto in the photo with my grandfather has been identified as a 1910/11 Renault Towncar by several experts in the antique car field. HOWEVER, just to clarify my original question, it is NOT the vehicle that went down on the Titanic, nor did I ever infer that it was. That vehicle was owned by someone else entirely.

My inquiry was whether or nor it was owned by JJ Astor or not. Family lore says that Herbert M. Rice (my grandfather) was a chauffeur for JJ Astor and that is what I would like to prove or disprove. So my first quest was to find out exactly what auto this was and that question has been answered.

Next, did JJ Astor own such a vehicle?

Thanks for the input received already and I have tried to follow up on the suggestions but have not found anything concrete. Herbert was listed on some census records as a chauffeur but not in the Astor household.

k