Yes I do Susan, but I thought I thought I would shake up more than just Nova. I guess I have to admit Im a bit of an instagator too. I cant be a rebel, you guys hunt little puppys and call them deer.

As long as we are off topic, remember, Not all Southerners are Hunters and not all Hunters are Southerners.

you didn't really shake me, I was trying to point out why it isn't a good policy/procedure, etc. Sometimes I think about the things behind in this case, why you "don't revisit a vehicle that has already been judged".

I'm learned to look at things from a completely opposite view when debating an issue. Like with the ten point rule deal. Everyone usually complains about the "competition". The points system works no different than when you were in grade school and the teacher used a curve to grade. If you had a smart one in the class you knew you were screwed because he/she would get a 100 (400 points)and you wouldn't. But, if you didn't have that person and the top score for the class was a 90 then the teacher marked it as a 100 and everyone within ten points (80 actual score) also got an A on the test. Then the next ten and next ten. In the AACA points system, the same thing is happening with the exception of those getting 2nd or 3rd Jr as the school teacher normal didn't use the top scoring B grade and move everyone else's score up and then take the ten points for the B, and the smae for the C.

I don't understand why nobady can seem to understand it is basicly the same as what was done in school. You took the test, got a score, and the "cookies" fell where they did. You didn't "compete" against your schoolmates. Same for AACA, you get a score based on 400 as the 100, and the cookies fall were the do.

True. In some parts people go hunting for deer, in your pawt's you go huntin' for cwiminals!!!

True...

I support doing away with the ten point rule. The car should stand on its own when competeting for an award. If you go to Hershey where there may be twenty cars in your class it is harder to get a first junior than at say a meet in the west where they have 100 cars total and you may have one other car in your class. The car is the same but the award may be very different.
Also at the AGNM it is harder to get a first GN than a GN Senior.
No other club does this that I know of. If a car makes the score it should get the award. I believe that with the advent of very perfectly restored cars we are chasing away the backbone of our hobby. Look at the attendance at Hershey over the past 15 years. If you remove DPC and HPOF you will be frightened by the numbers.

The attendance numbers over the last few years at Hershey are interesting. The following numbers were taken from the lists of attendees published in the annual Fall Hershey guide books. The first number is the number of vehicles competing for an award the second number is the total of DPC & HPOF entries and the last number is the total cars on the show field.

2003 = 1275 / 251 = 1526
2004 = 1184 / 251 = 1435
2005 = 1196 / 272 = 1468
2006 = 1024 / 275 = 1299
2007 = 1024 / 258 = 1282

It might be difficult to determine the precise cause for the decline in attendance at Fall Hershey over the last few years.
It would be more interesting to see the attendance numbers prior to 2003 and see if the downward trend is a short term or long term situation.

It isn't just the fall meet, attendence numbers have dropped during the spring meet as well. But understand that gas prices have probably been as much to blame as well.

As for Hershey, yes you have the selection, but I'm sure the people who buy through E-Bay has impacted Hershey as well.

For the year 2007, increased fuel prices may have had an impact on attendance.
I am not so sure attendance declines in previous years at Fall Hershey can be attributed to fuel prices.
Gas Prices for Unleaded Regular in October in Eastern, PA. over the last Few years:

- 2003 = 1.549
- 2004 = 1.859
- 2005 = 2.599
- 2006 = 2.159
- 2007 = 2.679

As you can see, gas prices actually declined in 2006 compared to 2005 which also happens to be one of the years of the largest declines in show car attendance at Fall Hershey. At least for 2006 Fall Hershey, fuel prices do not seem to be the leading cause for the decline.

2006 Hershey was the first year they had it on the grass on the old golf course. I think this is the reason why it dropped so bad. Honestly, would you want to park your expensive, highly detailed car on grass that will probably turn to mud once it has the typical Hershey rain? Worse yet, who is responsible if something gets damaged when you have to be towed out because your car sank down to the axles in mud? At least when it was on black top, if it rained, the car only got wet, not muddy.

Here are the meet totals for the Eastern Division National Spring Meet for last 5 years:

2003 - 894 cars.
2004 - 696 cars.
2005 - 512 cars.
2006 - 506 cars.
2007 - 478 cars.

- In 2003 the cars were on grass,
- In 2004 some of the cars were on grass and some were on blacktop,
- In 2005 everything was on blacktop,
- I wasn't there for the 2006 meet but I believe that was all on blacktop,
- In 2007 the show was on blacktop.

How do you explain that???

Are you saying that everyone was upset about the grass at Hershey, so they've been boycotting the spring meets too??

The grass at Hershey has nothing to do with the drop in registrations. You have very early registration deadlines for Hershey, you have a membership that is aging, and you have gas prices that continue to rise for several members who live on fixed incomes.

I haven't done the research on the Grand National, but that meet appears to be getting bigger every year.

Don't get me wrong, Hershey has had its' share of problems, they will always have their share of problems, and anyone who hosts a national meet will have problems too. But how many people do you know that are willing to put themselves through that kind of headache every single year for the last 52 years??

I am currently involved in a region that is planning on hosting a national meet for the first time in almost 20 years, and it looks like I am going to be named the meet chairman. If you want an eye opening experience, step up to the plate and host one of these meets. I can guarantee that you are in for a learning experience if you do.

Hershey 2007 seemed to have more spectators and cars then in previous years and I believe there were quite a few who missed the cut off for entering.

Make sure you and your staff have shirts with bull’s eyes on them. My wife and I though not a national meet ran a fairly large car show each year and to this day I am amazed at some of the complaints. The judging pencils are to short, the suns to hot end the meet early (plenty of trees), why can’t my kids swim in the trout pond, just cause my car has a blower shouldn’t exclude it from the stock class, etc, etc.

All kidding aside there will be more who appreciate your effort then the ones who complain about everything.

I hope so.

After going through the process that I have already gone through, it has given me a lot more understanding on how things are done and why. If nothing else happens, at least it will have been a learning experience.

Our application will be going into national within the next two weeks, and we won't know until the annual meeting as whether or not we'll get it.

ex98thdrill

The 2006 Spring Meet, held in Virginia Beach, was on grass! The selection of a site was very difficult; trailer parking, sufficient space for swap meet and of course show car parking was at the top of or list. We lucked out! we gained access to a VA National Guard base which provided everything. Our show field was the drill field which provided excellent hardpacked turf and excellent drainage if it happened to rain. Good luck in your planning and if we in Tidewater can be of assistance don't hesitate to call.

Mickey

There you go Pat. Mickey's region put on a great show that year and I must say the grass field was wonderful. There are any number of members in the AACA that will gladly help anyone that needs help in putting on a show or tour. We're here for the asking.

Wayne

There is a rod cruise-in just down the road from our shop at a farmer's market the last Friday of every month thru the Summer and Fall. They regularly draw 300-700 cars and we're out here in small town PA. We sometimes take a "restored" car which usually draws more attention than most any other car on the field. Last August we took a '15 Milburn Electric and were gratified at the interest it excited. I think sometimes street rodders are street rodders because they have never been exposed to the joy of owning a restored to original vehicle. The AACA does not do a very good job of promoting the hobby to new and younger members. Turn on the TV virtually any day and you will find someone cutting up, souping up, or scre*ing up an old car. When was the last time you saw anyone actually restoring a car on TV other than maybe the usual Corvette, Mustang, or Muscle Car. I think it would be money well spent for the AACA to develop a program of its own highlighting the restoration of cars. Perhaps sponsorships could be obtained from parts dealers, restoration shops, paint suppliers? Ther are fully sponsored programs for boaters, wood workers, street rodders, why not restorers?

Great post Jeff. Maybe the powers that be will work on a project similar to this in the future.

Wayne

My Uncle was the program director of a local NBC affiliate for 45 years. I was surprised to learn that the station derived significant income from professional wrestling in that pro wrestling paid to have their program aired (as did evangelists). Wrastlin' was not nearly as popular in the 60's and 70's and the airing of these "bouts" on Sunday mornings eventually mushroomed into the WWF etc. organizations of today. Don't discount mass advertising. If it can convince us that we can't possibly live without the latest gimmick or gizmo it can certainly bring antique auto restoration to the forefront. Expensive, yes, but I'll bet Steele, Coker, Maguires, etc would be interested in sponsorships. Many folks do not realize that some of the half hour "programs" they watch, especially "do it yourself" type shows are actually just half hour long, fully sponsored commercials. Warrants investigation at least.

We had a meeting last evening of our Region and I presented a petetion to be mailed to Hulon McGraw asking AACA to eliminate the ten point rule. I told them to only sign the petetion if they thought that the rule should be changed. I was surprised that every member present signed the petetion.

One thing we forget about this car show business. I figure that it costs me about $1000 to go to a show. I usually have a ways to go for the AGNM or out of state for a National meet and it seems to me that after about three of four of these getting a second junior because of the ten point rule a guy would give up. Or he could go west and get it on the first try because there are not many cars at the National meets out there.

On the ten point rule. I would be glad to email the petetion to any Region that is interested in seeing if their members would like to sign it.

It bugs me that if you live out west, where I started this showing of cars about twenty years ago, 100 cars is a big National meet. In the east 600 cars is a National meet. It isn't fair to have a one car class in the west and a twenty car class in the east with the ten point spread. I know of no other car club who does this.

My email address is: ddavis8839@aol.com

E-mail a copy to me.I doubt that it will do much good. I've tried in the past with no luck.

I just got my hands on a copy of the VCCA (Vintage Chevrolet Club of America) judging manual. Thier judging system seems to run pretty parellel to the AACA system. I did note one thing though that applies to this thread about the ten point rule. They don't use it. BUT... your car has to score 901 or better out of 1000 for 1st jr, 801 or better for 2nd jr, 701 or better for 3rd jr. AND they only award 3 of each. Top thre guys get 1st,the next three get 2nd,then the next three gets 3rd as long as they are over the min. points. Therefore you could techincally have a 999 point car and take home a 2nd (if there were 3 1,000 point cars) or a 991 point car and not take home anything (if 1 point seperated everyone). I think the AACA system is much fairer to the car and owner. I know if AACA used the three awards only, a lot of owners would be going home upset.

I don't expect that the VCCA has as many cars at their shows as AACA. The ten point rule only discriminates against the part of the country that gives them the most support. Eighty two percent live east of the Mississippi. If you go to a meet in the West, no problem. If you go to Hershey. Big problem. If the standard is 365 then every car scoring 365 should get a first junior. If they want to make the cars better move it to 370 or 375 but make it fair and equal at every meet.

Very well put.