I may be out of the year range, or out of the category... but to my knowledge, there are 10 known 1915 Oldsmobiles "Model 42" left in existence. With let’s say 2 or so hiding in a barn somewhere undiscovered... there would be 12 or so vehicles left.

Would these conditions make this car a classic? or would it be something that no one wanted - so it's worthless? and should be scrapped as well?

Thanks,

From the Classic Car Club mission statement at the top of this forum....

"What exactly is a CCCA Classic?" The club defines CCCA Classic cars as "...fine or unusual motor cars which were built between and including the years 1925 to 1948.

By the way, there are "no" Oldsmobiles listed in their group!

Wayne

The term "classic" as defined by the CCCA should have absolutely no bearing on a car's value. I own two Franklins, one is a "classic," and one is not. The "classic" is worth about a quarter of what the non-classic is worth, and they are both probably worth less than many Fords of the same era.

So, to answer your question, your car is not a "classic," and never will be in the eyes of the CCCA. If you would like, I will take this non-classic off your hands for you.

Joe, I looked at your website, these cars are buried treasure! They may not be considered "Classic" but they are definitely "Historic"! Obviously a lot of work to finish them but if you are up to it the end results will be great. If you are not already a member of the OCA join up, they may be able to help with info and parts.

If you like the car, and like the word "classic", there is no law against you calling it a "classic".

If you go to a magazine stand or book store where they sell automotive-related magazines, look for HEMMINGS MOTOR NEWS and OLD CARS WEEKLY. If you go thru these magazines, you will see that with each issue, it is getting harder and harder to find ANYTHING in the way of goods and/or services that is not called "classic" these days. These magazines are an excellent source of information about where to find parts, services, and lists of upcoming events related to used cars of every era.

You dont even need to look at automotive-related publications to find that the word "classic" is now pretty much MANDATORY for whatever it is you want to describe, or sell - got off the Interstate recently, parked next to a Rambler Classic on one side of me, on the other, a Caprice Classic (translation - used Chevrolet). The little shopping mall had a "Classic Upholstery" and "Classic Plumbing". Nothing like a nice Classic Coke with my "Classic Chicken" sandwich.

So, if you like the car, ENJOY it, DRIVE it, and SHOW it as an important piece of automotive history.

And again, PLEASE - dont worry about what to call it.
(Given what has happened to our language, if you catch some old codger like me smirking at you for tossing the word "classic" around, laugh back ! - YOU are in the overwhelming majority of car buffs today.

...............and all journalists and media people today, Petey.

Merriam-Webster defines classic as: serving as a standard of excellence : of recognized value; historically memorable.

No mention of the CCCA in there.

Mr Pushbuteney -- you are right !

That is why I personally believe we should change the name of the CCCA to the NON CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, so as to differentiate the largest, most elegant, most powerful cars WE like in OUR club, from the guys with the '34 Oldsmobile, 47 Chevrolets and other such..well...used cars.

I am not making this up - go look for yourself - this month's Hemmings, on Pp 4, has an article on "CLASSIC EDSELS"....!

A few years ago, a very nice golf-club / restaurant where we customarily had one of our CCCA Region's events, changed hands - the new owners were Japanese, employed an American management firm to handle their day-to-day ops.

When we tried to make a reservation for our yearly event, they tried to be polite in turning us down. Turns out, they assumed the word "classic car" meant the low rider crowd from East Los Angeles...! Seems one of their staff tried to figure out what a "classic car" was, and happened upon a low-rider magazine...!

Mr. Sdbravenetey - you are RIGHT. What you point out in reading a modern Websters, is how much our language and culture has changed. Reminds me of what a liberal California Governor said when voters complained about the declining highways, educational quality, etc....'LOWER YOUR EXPECTATIONS'.

When we formed the Classic Car Club Of America, we were an entirely different country, where exaggeration was considered dishonest, and PRECISION OF SPEECH was considered worth-while. Obviously, the third-world country we are becoming, has no need of precision in speech and thought.

In the 1950's, the Websters published for that generation had a far more precise definition of "classic". We picked this word for our Club, straight out of Websters, because we felt it reflected the particular era, and price class of the cars we felt were historically interesting. The exact definition ? Well..it had TWO parts. First, it said " UNIQUE, OF FIRST RANK, REPRESENTING THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF EXCELLENCE". Thus an ordinary middle class 8 cyl. Packard or similar upper-middle-class car from the 30's was not of interest to us.

We liked the BEST. Meaning, of course, the largest, most elegant, most powerful multi-cylinder super luxury cars.

Of course we were car buffs and liked ANY old used car. But for our particular Club, we knew PRECISELY what we were interested in.

The word "classic", when used PRECISELY, also meant a particular "school of design". Meaning..FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION (from the greek word "classicus".). So a CLASSIC super luxury car would be one where the hood, the headlights, the grill, the fenders, each stood out representing its own function. The "stream-line" era beginning around 1940, was the very antethesis of "classic", which is why the idea of having a '41 or later Cadillac or Packard in our Club would have not occured to us.

It never occured to us in those early years that our cars would have value, so concern for selling them was not of interest - we got em and drove em and worked on em cause we LOVED em.

As the 50's became the '60's, somehow, much to our surprise, people started seeing the REAL value WE saw in these "engineering exaggerations, magnificantly over-done", and the race was on by the used car dealers to get any old car they wanted to sell, called a "classic".

But, you fellows are right - times have changed. In a country where the youth of today have no need or use for precision of speech, since our technical jobs are going to China, all they need to know, is how to ask "DO YOU WANT FRIES WITH THAT? ". So why NOT abandon "precision of speech" and call EVERYTHING "classic" ?

Well said! When I was a kid I used to ask my dad why the CCCA didn't let in some of the upscale cars of the 50s. In my older age now I fully understand why not. The reason is exactly as you describe it.

Full Classics are unique enough in their own way be be one of the seven commonly recognized genres of collecting. I just received my first issue of Hemmings Classic Car (well, "classic", right..)with two separate editorials suggesting CCCA is not inclusive enough. Not sure, with the mountains of organizations & clubs out there, why the push for this. I think the inclusion of "virtually identical" pre-1925 makes sense, and understand what change there has been has been very slow, and this is probably about it. I think that is fine - diluting this genre further makes no sense.

BTW - I am not a member, I just admire the CCCA for an outstanding job of identification of those special cars from a special era - true Classics.

Getting back to this gent's post, he can choose from AACA, HCCA, and probably several Olds or brass clubs, which will add value in terms of networking for parts, knowledge, etc. He has a desirable car in it's own right.

Well, there is one Oldsmobile in the CCCA. "It is a 1937 Oldsmobile Salon Tourer, with body by Maltby of England. This one-off version of a 1937 Oldsmobile with a newly introduced semi-automatic four-speed "Automatic Safety Transmission" and what is believed to be the first power convertible top. It is the only Oldsmobile accorded classic status by the Classic Car Club of America."

"aristocracy" ? Not really. Many of my fellow CCCA members are like me - we got interested in the cars we call "classics" simply because we liked the marvelous machinery and quality of fittings.

Remember, me, and many of my fellow CCCA members, had NO IDEA our cars would eventually become respected and be valuable. It was simply the love of the car that got us going.

But as to our CARS ? The ones we felt were worth saving ? The biggest and the best from a bygone era?

You are RIGHT. That's the whole point! In the early years of our Club, we were interested in saving only the BEST of the best. Those were the "super luxury" cars that only the super rich could afford.

But in the 1950's they were worthless junk, and those of us who wanted to save them, were considered at best, a bit odd!

Yes, the cars we called "classics" were aristocrats. As one writer of our earlier years said - "engineering exaggerations, magnificently over-done". Another writer said "I want so little out of life...only the best, and there is so little of that".

C'mon - we in the Classic Car Club Of America ARE NOT OUR CARS ! While the word "classic" is over-used today, it was a little known word in the early years of our Club. We picked the word, because we were trying to figure out what to call those extra special "super luxury" cars that were so...hmmm..AH..THAT'S IT...CLASSY! compared to the ordinary car of that era.

You do have a point about us "over-doing" our exclusiveness, since these days, anyone who has anything to sell, be it fried chicken, soft drinks, or used cars, simply cannot control themselves - the obsession to screech the word "classic" at EVERYTHING one wants to "unload" on someone else..is too strong.

As I noted elsewhere, maybe we in the CCCA, given the decline in our language, loss of "precision of speech", should change our name to the NON CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA !

Remember, in the early days of our Club, our language and culture was quite different. People spoke with more precision than they do now. In those days, the dictionaries defining the word "classic" said "UNIQUE, OF FIRST RANK, REPRESENTING THE HIGHEST STANDARD OF EXCELLENCE".

I noted elsewhere, recently one of our Regions was told it could no longer hold an event at a charming private golf course we had used for years. Why ? Well, it had changed hands. A Japanese firm bought it, and hired a local management firm to run it. The management firm personell had seen a TV show about "classic low riders"...figured they didnt want a bunch of "those types" tearing up their property & scaring their members !

AGAIN, PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE CCCA members with our cars! Yes, the cars we favor are arrogant in their aristocratic presence. Who could deny how much more "aristocratic" a, well, for example, Cadillac V-16 or Packard V-12 is, compared to the ordinary Cadillac V-8 or Packard "120" of the same era. The original advertisment text for my own FULL CLASSIC ( a Packard V-12) is quite honest, saying
SUCH A MAN ( man of position ) MUST MAKE NO MISTAKE,
THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SIZE, WEIGHT, AND POWER
WHEN IT COMES TO REFLECTING THE DIGNITY OF HIS POSITION"

(Fortune Magazine 1938)

ALL car buffs are ALWAYS welcome at CCCA National and Region Events. Since our earliest years, we both at the national and regional level, have encouraged "joint events" with other old car, old boat, old airplane, old train, you name it...events !

Our custom for our DRIVING meets, is that when we are going as a GROUP with our cars, you respect the fact that our CARS are different than the ordinary cars of that era, and either ride with one of us in our "full classics", or follow and park seperately. As for our "display" meets, again, we ENCOURAGE all old car buffs and their cars, to join us in celebration of "car buffery"..!

Your car is better than a classic, it is an antique!

The Antique Automobile Club of America was founded for the preservation and enjoyment of Antique Automobiles, defined as cars from the pioneering era before 1915.

These cars are typically open cars with brass headlights and accessories. They represent the era when cars were uncommon, expensive more or less hand made luxury items.

After 1915 cars became common everyday transportation and a lot of the character of the early models disappeared. This was the time when Ford was in the ascendent and every car maker aped the Tin Lizzie to a certain extent. Brass disappeared, bright colors went out of fashion and cars became more practical but dowdier.

So be happy you have one of the relics of the early days of motoring, a genuine antique, and enjoy it to the full.

Rusty,

The AACA is about cars 25 years and older, not pre-1916.

Peter

BJM - If you buy your Lincoln but do not join CCCA I think you are just missing out on an opportunity to get more enjoyment out of the experience of owning a Classic.

I just think CCCA just gets a bad rap. This is no different than any other specialty club or group - they are not just marque specific. Consider the "traditional hot rod" clubs. If you show up in a Corvette, the guys with the 32 Ford highboys may appreciate your car, but honestly that is really not what their particular group is about. Nobody questions this rationale. At the same time, if I bought a traditional hot rod I would get involved with one of these clubs for the same reason I joined the A clubs - knowledge, fellowship and people who really hone in on your car. Just my 2 cents...

Well put. There is a certain amount of reverse snobbery at work that you see all the time which feeds in to what you are saying.

Why not Google for CCCA list of cars or CCCA approved and see for yourself what cars are accepted. You could do that in less time than what it took to compose your post.


I know of several proud Continental owners who are quite at home in CCCA and aren't smitten with class envy and self esteem issues.

I for one am pleased that CCCA has found a way to protect the term 'Full Classic' against the pretenders.

The assault on CCCA by the Vermont activists editorializing in the HMN periodical classic car is offensive and unwarranted. I refuse to subscribe to it because the crowd from Bennington shows disrespect to a major faithful segment of the hobby (CCCA).

My deceased Duesenberg owner friend Al Bennett was fond of saying, "This hobby was started by mechanics and was ruined when $$$ took over."

The first post in this forum pinned by PeterG has the Classic Car Site attached at the address below........

http://www.classiccarclub.org/


Wayne

One problem that I do have with (our) CCCA is ~loose quote here~ a vehicle has to be approved on its own merits and not because of another.

This sounds great but in actual practice it means democracy, majority rule, the Cadillac lovers can get all their cars admitted but the Chrysler Town & Country supporters cannot because the approval committee is stacked against them. (Sorry I cannot think of any politically correct wording here)

Another example is the Auburn 8 vs. Chrysler 8. Ever compare a 1932 Chrysler CP 8 or 1933 Imperial CQ with a 1932-33 Auburn 8? Nope, not allowed in CCCA, can't compare and approve . . each car must stand on its own merits. (Sorry, I don't think the Auburn 8 qualifies either.)

Another example, only in recent years was the 135" wb 1932 CH Imperial accepted. Same engine, essentially same powertrain as CL, production body.

I was the editor of our regional CCCA magazine for a while and the folks that came out of the woodwork to criticize me because I ran some Imperial Lore was unbelievable. They wanted ACD, Packard or Cadillac.

Ok, the CCCA has some problems but so does your car pool, your lodge, your church, your spouse . . everyone but you and I and I worry about you sometimes.

We have had some wonderful times and made lifelong friends in the CCCA and I will probably remain a member for life regardless of its quirks.

From an outsider's viewpoint I agree CCCA is probably not perfect in it's selection criteria, and Dep5's insight is interesting to me. Still, there are many affordable cars that do qualify. In terms of bringing these cars out for the public to enjoy, I would like to see more also but like many other pre-war cars they may be more selective about what shows they go to or the owners may just not be as active anymore in some cases. Getting more of these cars out to our local AACA chapter show next year is one of my goals.

As far as I know, CCCA is about driving as much as many other clubs. I have been able to get up close and personal with some of these cars after visiting with owners. Once they see your interest is genuine, and not based on "what is it worth?" etc. it seems as informal as anywhere else.

That said Dep5's comments on HMN are also interesting. I am more than a little dissapointed in the HMN stance on CCCA, and the new "classic cars" magazine is a bit of a dissapointment for me so far. Turns out to be the same editorial staff who only write about rat rods, entry Brit sportscars and GM cars of the 70s in the main publication (not bashing but I am just not interested in these.) Thought I would try the "classic car" magazine thinking there would be some good coverage on American pre-war. Very little pre-war coverage let alone Classics. Too bad - but will probably use that slot to join CCCA. (truthfully I am over the "limit" in terms of magazines, national and local club membership - but I figure there are worse ways to blow money, right??!!)

Well I drive my full classic 2-3 times a week in nice weather.

Also you can get full classics in the 30K range. In fact a lot of full classic are less than these 60s muscle cars.

Why would you attempt to enter a show where your car was the accepted margue? Plenty of non classic car show out there. I would enter my Packard in an all Ford show.

I know a guy who owns mostly full classics, but has a weekly coffee meeting with friend who owns both classic and non classic such as chevys, fords etc.

Your argument against the CCCA is IMHO vey weak.

I am not a member of CCCA, not that I have anything against them, it's just not my thing. I read this part of the forum because I like the cars that CCCA recognizes. I feel that the way the CCCA acts like they own the word classic is a little egotistical. Please don't lecture me about precision of speech either, I'm a technical writer by trade, so I know about precision speech. The word "classic" is not a very specific or precise term as defined by any dictionary however, and will always be open to interpretation and opinion.

I do own a "full Classic" that I bought for less than $15k in very presentable condition. I drive it frequently and get it dirty. I have a second, less expensive, car made by the same company. It's a convertible coupe. It was half the price new as the sedan, and yet today it would be worth a few times more. It is always pointed out to me that my convertible "isn't a classic." I don't care. The entire argument seems so banal.

The CCCA has the right to exclude anyone they want. They are entitled to their eliteness. They are not entitled to the ownership of a word so ingrained in the English language. Their copyrighting of the term "full classic" makes me chuckle. What are the others, half classics? Maybe we should start using the term "CCCA Classic." That would be more appropriate.

I'm finished arguing now.

where the last Packard vs Cadillac cut offs are is always a subject for interesting debate. The 1941 Cadillac 61 and the 1948 Packard Custom 8 are interesting cases to consider.

"CCCA Recognized" or "CCCA Recognized Classic" still seems to have favor with many sellers - I think the guys who sell a lot of cars know this phrase is pretty clear. I just received another issue of HMN classic car today(???) with an editorial on acceptance standards in it that may be of interest to those who are reading this thread.

Steve B - that is a great pair of Franklins!! If the sedan was anywhere near the condition it is in your picture, I would say very well bought! Nice lines, too, sort of makes me think of a bigger '31 A slant window!