Hi Dick,
Thanks for the info. A reply is waiting in your mailnbox.

Best wishes,

Jim

ex98thdrill, Right on bro! Could not have said it better myself.....Bob

Ex98, are you planing to be in Binghamton on the 29th? We had our weekly meeting last nite an I learned that a LOT of people are interested in the fire trucks coming to Binghamton, If you are here on fri. befor 5pm it sure would be nice tohave your truck in our Fri. nite parade. Also any outher members reading this we would realy like to have as many cars trucks or partisapents as possablel. Lets show Binghamton what AACA realy is!!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I expect to be in Binghamton no later than 10am Friday morning. I've made it to Binghamton in 2 hours before, but with the trailer, the hills, and rush hour traffic in Syracuse, it'll probably take us more time. We may come in by Rte 17, but in either case, we should be there by 10. As for the parade, we'll have to think about it. Usually if we're facing competition, we focus our attention on making sure the vehicle is 100% on the mark. Just look for the old Ford from Canandaigua, NY. For those that saw the truck at Hershey, it has changed a lot since then.

How many fire trucks are entered?? We're going for a Senior, and I would be interested in knowing what we're going up against. A lot of those fire trucks are professionally restored, so that tends to raise the bar for guys like us who do their own work.

From what I read you dont have anything to worry about as far as the pros. are concerned. We have a meeting tomorrow , Ill chk. but I think there are 2 others besides you. Dick <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Dick.

Here's a case where I am quite confident that we've gotten the truck well above a 375, but I'm hoping that we're in the neighborhood of 390 so there's nothing to worry about. Back to the original post, I want to make sure that we don't get bitten by the "10 point rule."

Before someone accuses us of not doing things right, we got our First Junior at Hershey probably because there was no competition. In all honesty, the truck wasn't even finished to our satisfaction, but enough to win the First Junior. Since then we've made at least 11 points worth of improvements to the vehicles. To expand a little more on the issue, we were able to get the truck on the trailer on its' own power, hauled it to Hershey, spent Tuesday afternoon and all day Wednesday buying parts. We spent all day Thursday working on the truck, bought more parts on Friday, and then worked Friday night still trying to get the truck ready. On the 4th of July the truck consisted of a cab, frame, tires and pump. From that time my father and I got all of the electrical systems, fuel system, engine, transmission, all of the body panels and got the truck running in 12 weeks. To get all of that done in 12 weeks was nothing short of a miracle, let alone win a First Junior.

Depending on what has to be done to the truck once we get down there will dictate whether or not we put the truck in the parade. In all fairness, I won't commit to anything until the time comes.

Our Plymouth is going for a Repeat Preservation, so that won't be an issue.

98, I asked reg. and was told there are 3 trucks in your class counting you.I have been bit twice by the 5 pt. rule so I know how you feel.See you in Binghamton.

I guess I'll jump into the 10 point debate. Let me say right out that YES you are in competition with the other cars. No doubt about it, YOU ARE COMPETING. Let me also say that competition is a good thing if fostering perfection is the goal. Competition is a good thing if you desire the thrill of the chase. Competition is a VERY good thing when you prevail. The down side is competition can be expensive. Competition can be depressing. Competition can induce some to just not bother.
Personally I believe the current system is just right. The minimum point requirement is liberal enough to encourage participation and the point spread rule throws enough uncertainty and spice into the equation to make it interesting and not encourage "trophy hunting" by restoring to a set point number. I think the point spread system is a master stroke of compromise.
Case in point..... I just returned from Binghamton where I found out I was the only car in my class that was going for a Senior. In other words I had no competition. I was pretty certain I would make the minimum, and get the "hard ware" but I was still mildly disappointed because the tension, and competition, was absent.
If we are voting I say leave the system alone. It's good points out weigh it's negatives.......Bob.

The other day I heard on the radio a guy from the PGA talking and he stated that the players compete against the course not each other. Thought that was interesting but in thinking about it, it is true. As a player you are trying for that perfect score, which is determined by how you as an individual play that day, and at the end of the day the scores fall where they may. You just hope that you’re good enough to be the winner. Pretty much the same as the AACA judging system, where you are trying for that perfect score and at the end of judging the scores fall where they may but in this case you only need to relativity close to as good as Tiger Woods to take home the same hardware.

Bravo!!! I don't think anyone could have explained it any better.

Bob, nice putting a face to a name! If you would prefer, we could always take the trophy back and you can try again!

Nice seeing you also, Steve. My thanks to the AACA and all the volunteers for putting on a great meet. The georgeous weather didn't hurt either. BTW, I think I'll keep the "hardware".......Bob

Hi all. Just thought I would chime in in favor of the current system. No, I am not a mega-buck collector, just a competetive person by nature. If the AACA were to give everyone (or just about everyone) who showed up a 1st Junior, there probably wouldn't be much motivation for me to show up. In order to prevent any disappointment to myself at the hands of the 10 point rule, I go in assuming that I need between 390-400 to win and prepare the car accordingly. As it is, AACA judging is much less fussy than what I experience at the Mopar Nationals, so 390 really isn't such an unreasonable number. With my current car, I had to make the choice of driving the wheels off it and not worry about competetive judging or drive it sparingly in order to preserve its restored condition for the purpose of show competition. It is possible to do both, but involves much more time than I am willing to invest as I have a myraid of other activities I also enjoy in my spare time so have to budget accordingly. Bottom line is, if I had a car that I knew was a lower scorer (365-375) and I had no interest in or resources available to upgrade, I would try my luck at a smaller, more sparsely attended national meet and try to steal a 1st that way. As was mentioned in an earlier post, if you favor early T-Birds, first gen Mustangs or 57 Chevies, you are probably out of luck trying to get a first with a sub-390 point car as they are just so popular. If the AACA does feel a change is in order, I would favor raising the minimum to 390 for a first place award.

Rod

I am a current AACA Judge in good standing and have been judging for 14 years. I am in favor of eliminating the 10 point rule because of the over restored cars. When on the judging field and one of the over restored cars is judged and it reaches a near 400 points or close, that can just about eliminate the other cars that are restored in this class to correct factory original standards from getting the top award they deserve.

I have been disillusioned so many times when the judging sheets are totaled to find cars that should have received the top award in their class(and deserved it) are relegated to a 2nd place. It was stated in one of the discussion responses that the "System Traps Judges" and this is so true. As a Judge I have felt that "Trapped" feeling many times and have finished my Judging responsibilities with a less than satisifed feeling about what just happened with the 10 points and could do nothing about it. We need to make the change. The only fair way is to bring the judging of the car and the score sheet together and not compete with other cars in the class. We should only compare the car to the judging sheets and not to what the other cars have scored. Each car needs to stand on it's own in it's own class. The total points will tell the tale on each car. The point standards that are now in place should remain the same. Just the 10 point rule should go.

Thank You !!!

My take on the 10 point rule, (or 5 points at a Grand National), is that it inconsistently sets a standard that changes with field population. A given vehicle may not receive a 1st place award if an outstanding vehicle is present yet that same vehicle may in fact receive a first place award at another meet where that outstanding vehicle is not present. Thus without change, a given vehicle scores differently at different meets depending on the balance of the field. I propose that this does not encourage competition, rather confusion and proper meet selection. It also encourages the "pray for rain" senario whereby many outstanding cars fail to leave their trailers yet a vehicle which would have been beaten by the rule appropriately wins a 1st award.

A better encouragement of competition would be to a consistent standard which does not change with field population or weather conditions. Better to raise the point requirement of a 1st place winner than to vary the standard with meet participants and mother nature.

I also like the competition of attempting perfection but perfection does not vary or change with meet conditions or population. It is a constant standard.

I am in favor of eliminating the point spread rule and instead raise the bar of a 1st place winner.

I've watched this thread develop for awhile and see some interesting points on both sides. For quite some time I was very much in favor of eliminating the 10 point rule because I have been on the "losing" end of the spread several times. One thing that I've learned through that process is how to take my restoration techniques to a higher level. I know that I'll step on a few toes with this statement but I think that saying that you can't compete against the high dollar restorations is a cop-out. None of the cars in our toybox are the recipients of a high dollar restoration. The only part of the restoration that my father and I have farmed out ist the body and paint work. Admitedly this is the most expensive part but we just don't have the facilities to complete that part of the restoration to our satisfaction. My Monte Carlo now competes in class 36G with the very high dollar Chevelle restorations and I received my first Grand National. It took 2 tries but I did get it after making some improvements to the car.
I would be more in favor of continued education of the judges to evaluate the cars as they were manufactured originally. The best thing in that regard was this year at New Bern when judges were asked to judge a brand new Lincoln. I didn't hear anyone judge that car at 400 points when it really should have been as it was perfect according to the AACA standards. When our cars were built, the manufacturers were churning out thousands and thousands of cars. It's only now that us anal retentive restorers are building works of art. I'm not saying that we as restorers should lower our standards of restoration, just put more attention to how the cars were built rather than building works of art.

My vote is to do away with the 10-point spread.

Although I am a fairly new AACA member, I was under the impression (from hearing what was said at the judging school's I've attended, and talking to more experienced members) that there was only one philosophy in the AACA: that it will give the appropriate award to each car that deserves it. To me, this is a better way of awarding prizes than the other systems that allow for only one first prize, only one second prize, etc.

But, from reading these responses, I see that there actually is another philosophy at work in the AACA: there is but one highest-scoring vehicle which is the first prize winner...and if other vehicles come close to that top-scorer, then they too will be given a first prize.

After re-reading the judging manual in light of this thread, I understand now that this notion of ONE first prize winner is supported by the judging manual...however, this notion is contradicted when I hear banquet speakers and judge's trainers say, "The AACA likes to give an award to each and every car that deserves one" and "the car will be judged against a scoresheet, not against other cars."

Unfortunately, the 10 point rule causes some vehicles/owners to lose out on an award that they would have otherwise received had it not been for a near-perfect car showing up. I witnessed the unfairness of the 10-point rule recently: a couple has a family-treasure of a car that is enjoyed by being driven on an occasional tour. This car is extrememly well maintained, and by the points system of 365 for First Junior, it wins. However, at a regional meet, it was beat out of that award by a freshly-restored car. The owners, an elderly couple, had many, many hours of sweat in getting the car ready for the show. There were no glaring errors on the car (such as radial tires) that amount to huge deductions. It would have won First at another show perhaps, but not at this one becuase of the freshly-restored car that they ended up competing against. The couple was very disheartened becuase everyone in our host club (many of whom are judges) was confident they would win First Junior. Now, a year later, they are going to try again at another show which means a 1,500 mile round trip (we don't have many shows out west.)

For an award system to be fair, it must be consistent. The 10-point rule leads to inconsistencies. As has been stated, a less-than-perfect car can win a First at one meet, but take it to another meet, and depending on what shows up in the same class, that less-than-perfect car may only win Second or Third. Same car, same day, theoretically can win any one of those three awards soley depending on what other, "better" car or cars show up. A car can also slip BACKWARDS due to the ten point rule; for example, it won a Second Junior at one show, so the owner takes it to another show hoping to win First, but this time wins THIRD Junior. This system is inconsistent and so cannot be considered a fair award system.

IMHO THE system is fine.Sure some cars slip through the cracks on inclimate days but consistently THE system works.SURE there ALL over restored but you know what... you don't GAIN or LOSE points for over restoration.When i go to Hershey in the Fall i will see MAYBE 20 OUTSTANDING restorations and i will see 500 VERY nice cars.The 20 WILL win National Awards the others will win firsts,seconds and thirds.Pretty much what they EARNED.OVERDRIVE,It sounds like your friends car has been maintained NOT restored maybe it belongs in the HPOF class.As for UNFAIRNESS of the 10 point rule guess it depends which trophy your holding.diz

As I have stated before, I have been on both sides of the 10 point rule and it doesn't matter "which trophy your holding".The 10 point rule has you competing with other cars, not just the score sheet.

I have lost out because of the 10 pt. rule more than once, I still say we have the best system in place right now. The problem is not with the rule, but with the big doller prof. restorations that result in OVER RESTORATION. I know, no premion for over rest. Bull.A lot of the judges look at the over restored car and realy think thats the way they came from the factory, now they expect the car next to it to look the same.If they are not as shiney,WELL this guy needs to work a little harder.BULL!! Take a brand new car off the show room floor, you cant eat off the under floor!! I dont know who thought up the idea to have US judge a new car at the last few meets, but he or she deserves 3 grate big HIP HIP HORAYS

Is there something wrong with an unrestored car attempting to be judged?? a car is only original once...sometimes preservation is a lot harder than restoration.

"The aim of the AACA is the perpetuation of the pioneer days of automobiling by furthering the interest in and preserving of antique automobiles, and the promotion of sportsmanship and of good fellowship among all AACA members." right from this site's about the AACA page...maintained = preserved!

HPOF seems to be a bit tainted...I don't agree with repainted cars etc, etc...seems to be a catch all and DPC is a catch all, catch all...

Dear Ron,You got to be kidding,MORE WORK to preserve than restore.GOTTA believe preserve is washing,waxing and NOT using the vehicle.That said NOTHIN better than an original car,wish i had ANYTHING i thought could compete with a restored car on the showfield.I would LOVE to see a restored car get taken to the woodshed by an original.BRING EM ON.diz

well...I didn't say it's more work to preserve than to restore.
I feel if your pockets or talent is deep enough anything can be restored. If there are survivor cars out there, such as the Hudson Hornet in the latest issue of AA, preserving them in such condition isn't the easiest thing...that's all. Unfortunately, the cars that are true originals don't have a chance in competition to the restored (mostly over restored) cars in the judged event...and then they are pushed out to the out skirts of the event, typically lost in a shuffle.

Almost afraid to jump in here but once again want to state that my comments are my own and not the clubs.

I disagree completely with the fact that an over restored car will beat out a "correct" restoration! It can happen but I do not believe it always happens. My judging team at the AGN had perfect examples of each one of these cars and they scored within 2 points of each other. We in fact commended one owner about resisting the urge to "over restore". I would hope that experienced judges would not be swayed by over restoration but understand human nature makes that a bit difficult. Overall, I think we do a decent job in this area based on the results of thousands of cars at our meets.

I have "waffled" personally over the years on the ten point rule. On one hand, it seems to me that if we raise the bar to a higher number we will make it even more difficult for the "home restorer" to compete. The 365 points for a first junior at least gives the member a chance. On the other hand, I understand the difficulties about our 10 point rule for some people.

Many cars in the 365+ area are very nice cars and I would personally be proud to own one of them. We need to think about our entire membership and find ways to keep them active in our club. Raising the bar could have serious implications in my opinion. Yes, our awards would become more prestigious but at what price?

This is not an easy subject as I do not think there is a right or wrong. Perspective and experience all come into play. Overall, it seems to me looking at history and my own personal experience of having 4 cars go through the entire judging system that our program works well. It may not be perfect but no judging system will ever be.

As pointed out here, for those of us who enjoy the "competition" the 10 point rule keeps us on our toes. How many restorers would not go the extra mile to make sure they correctly restored their car if they knew they could lose, say 20 points and still win? Would I install the correct battery, would I worry about the radial tires, etc.? The result could be that more and more cars would not be available for us to see in their correct "clothes".

I think their may be a misunderstanding of the intention for our HPOF and DPC classes and I humbly disagree with the "Reese's" guy. The HPOF class was never intended for completely original cars but certainly hopes were that they would be in the class. The name "original features" was given to assure we had the opportunity of seeing a completely correct interior, exterior or some part of the car that was completely unmolested. It is hardly a catch all.

DPC was instituted to keep our members active and let them enjoy their drivers. The recognition we give them is only a small token of appreciation for the expense many of them incur to attend our meets and join us for fun and judging. It is a class that meets the needs of the club and has been adopted by many clubs around the country. No catch all here either as it has a definite purpose.

We will probably never all agree on a single system and as a member of other clubs I can tell you that is a universal complaint. A huge difference is that AACA has a large committee that constantly studies these issues and meets several times a year to debate these issues. AACA WILL in the future survey members to get their feelings on our system to guide us in the future.

No one is wrong here, just a very difficult issue that has a lot of sides to it.