I guess, my bottom line is, I'm just against the segregation of the cars at meets…

While this has nothing to do with the 10 point rule discussion, I agree with you about segregation of HPOF. I would love to see HPOF cars sprinkled among the restored cars in the same classes, but I do understand that at larger meets that would make it really tough on the HPOF evaluation team. I have a restored Model A Ford that received its Grand National First at Kalamazoo, but I also appreciate Original unrestored cars. Two perfect examples of how great they can be are the Oldsmobile on the current Antique Automobile Cover and the Hudson Hornet also in the Current Antique Automobile. Ever since my 9 year old daughter saw the movie "Cars", we have been interested in Hudsons. She and I both read the article on the original Hudson with great interest.

I agree with MCHinson, it would horrible to make a judging team go from class to class looking for the cars they are to judge. At Hershey it would be a judge's nightmare.

Occasionally teams I have been on, or Captain of, have had to locate a car that was parked in the wrong place by the parking crew. You don't mind one or even two, you certainly don't make the owner move when it wasn't their fault they were told to park in the wrong place. But a whole class done like that would be more than should be asked of the judges.

Maybe the answer is to hold a space open in the classes for these cars if there is room, and let them move there after they have been judged, if they choose to do that.

Susan, laying out a show field is no small task and room is usually at a premium. Moving cars in crowds is not a very safe idea either.

HPOF and DPC cars are not judged, they are evaluated. Special teams that have experience with these cars handle this assignment and you all are right that it would be an impossible task to ask these folks to go through all our classes to do their job.

"Segregating" is the only way we can logistically handle these programs. Not an ideal solution but the only one that works for now.

MC, go to http://www.hudsonclub.org/ and download an application form. We'd love to have you!

Steve, First sorry for using the term judged. I know that they really aren't.

I just thought if there was room at a show they could move if they wanted to. And you are correct if the crowd is large it could be problematic to do that.

I think that having the HPOF vehicles together really is the way to go.

And maybe a small consideration is that if they were with their class by years, some of them might look more shabby and worm by comparison. Rather than being among what are clearly survivors and appreciated as such.

Based on this thread it would appear to be in the best interests of the club that this survey be done in the not to distant "future" (ie. in 2008).

Personally, I think gathering input and ideas from as many AACA members as possible about the scoring system is a good start. With so many members with so much experience and varied backgrounds there are bound to be other ideas out there worth considering.

I would imagine that there might be other areas of the club or topics that a survey might be useful to gather input from club members.

BTW, when was the last time that the members of the AACA were sent a survey to gather their opinions on the judging system, and other aspects of the club and how it operates?

Having been an AACA for only a few shorts years I am somewhat curious as to how often surveys have been used in the past by the officers to gather the opinions of the club members on various topics.

We have been in the club since the early eighties and I don't think we have ever seen a survey about any aspect of the AACA.

My guess is that subjects come up, here or in letters from members, and the issue(s) will be addressed at some point.

Steve, An idea that might help depending on the size of the teams evaluating the DPC & HPOF cars would be to at least break them down into a few smaller groups. I'm thinking of three, being pre-war, post-war and commerical. Then place them near thier respective judged classes. While this doesn't put them right in with the exact respective judged class it would at least get them a little closer without them being spread all over the field for the DPC and HPOF teams.

Dave, your idea is interesting and I will pass it along. I see some problems with it but also think it deserves to be kicked around the table.

AACA had done surveys before but they were directed to specific areas and to specific people like life members. The plan is to have a survey done in the November/December issue or shortly thereafter. There is a science to writing the questions and we need to make sure that we do not get tainted answers and that our sample batch is indicative of the majority.

AACA has relied on Roundtable meetings for member input and since these people mostly come to show cars or judge their opinions speak fairly loud. Last MONTH this office recieved 4355 emails and I cannot begin to tell you how many phone calls and letters. Obviously we do a lot of communicating with our membership. This very forum is just another way we get input from a wide assortment of members.

AACA does serve it members and does listen. As I said before we have a very large judging committee and tons of other committees made up of the rank and file that work on club issues.

A very good point. I was driving to my part-time babysitting job this morning and was going to come back and edit my comment to add the Roundtable discussions and even the judging schools to the places where members can express their feelings and opinions on how the AACA does things. You beat me to it.

Bill and I went to the Roundtable discussion in New Bern. It was the first one we had been able to attend. It was very interesting.

Steve, thank you for your reply concering the various types and amounts of feedback the AACA receives from it's
members. It is great to now know there are so many different forms of communication options available to
members and that the officers are always listening.

Well said Steve. We don't come to a meet, unload a vehicle off of the trailer to "squeek by" with the minimum points. When we unload, we're there for the win. Granted there have been times where we didn't have a vehicle finished to our satisfaction, but due to time, didn't get it done, but the 10 point rule allowed us to still come out on top.

Being an owner of several "orphan" vehicles, the 10 point spread bridges the gap that is caused based on lack of parts available for our vehicle.

My father and I ran into a similar instance at the Grand Nationals last year in Dover, DE with our el camino. The reason we seemed to get a second place was that we were told by a couple people who I will remain nameless at this time, that there were a couple 400 point cars in our category. With the Grand Nationals only having a 5 point spread, that means that we could have gotten a 394 out of 400 and still been over the minimum amount of points needed for a First place Junior Grand National but not making the within 5 point requirement. Granted, there were some items on our el camino that might have been like that from the factory such as a scratch on the plastic back paneling on the front seat and other items that we placed on the car that were NOS. Such items seemed to be deducted as when we got our sheet, those were the areas that were highlighted and we could not find anything else wrong other than the NOS standard lacking in quality versus something that was totally rechromed and/or restored. Did we have enough to score a first place if there were no 400 point cars or have the 5 point rule? Yes. Should we have gotten a first place based on the judges findings and rules of the AACA? No because of the rule of 5 for the Grand National shows. Kinda disheartening but that is what the rule is. My father has basically written off Grand National events now for this reason since I highly doubt that our el camino will be a 400 point car unless we totally restore our restored car again taking the NOS parts and having brand new NOS parts restored to better than new condition.

The 10 point rule for National meets and 5 point rule for AGNM is like a double edged sword. It makes us try to do the best that we can for our vehicles by using orignal parts vs incorrect fitting repros to achieve "Factory standards" yet something that is not factory standards or over restored vehicles scoring higher than vehicles using original NOS parts.

The beauty of this is that you can't get beat by the same vehicle twice. Keep trying and keep working on your vehicle. You can do it.

We pulled a Second Grand National in Buffalo, tried again in Northglenn and won a First Grand National the following year, and then won a Senior Grand National in Dover last year.

Your vehicle may be good enough for a Senior Grand National, but the 400 point vehicle and the 5 point spread might be enough to throw a wrench in the gears. KEEP TRYING!!

In the meantime, try to get involved with the judging process, go to some CJE's, and then try to do some judging in the class that your vehicle is in (you'd have to leave your own vehicle home to do this). If you can pick up another point or two that might be enough to put you over the top.

The one Chevelle that beat our el camino is a personal friend of mine who actually went over our el camino and told us what needed to be corrected when we originally got our el camino. He is a OE restored Chevelle judged for the local ACES region. (American Chevelle Enthusiast Society). My father and I are judges for our local region and my father has attended national judging seminars also for the AACA.

Both my father and I drive our cars and they are not trailer queens that are pushed off and winched onto enclosed trailers. Granted, sometimes we might use a trailer for going to long distance shows where we have the bias ply rims and tires on for concours events such as AACA and such that judge on factory standards. But if a show is local and it is not factory standards, we have correct rims but with radial tires on them and we drive the cars to the shows. This year on the way to Hershey, my carb decided to puke on me (third time this has been rebuilt). Luckily, I bring spare parts and was able to swap out the carb with an incorrect one but it still got me to the show with having the original carb in a box to show the judges with the explanation of what happened in route. Fortunately, the AACA takes that into consideration where as other organizations and clubs do not.

We drive our cars to local shows and trailer them to the long distance shows as well.

WOW!!! Talk about p1$#ing off the %#!,Its been said that no matter the chore I get the job done. I may have over achieved at Hershey. Let me start by saying I sold parts at the chocolet field Tues. till Fri. Fri. after noon I loaded my truck and drove 4hrs. home. I done some chores unloaded my truck got my Buick and wifes Chevelle ready to go and still managed to steal almost 4hrs. sleep. My wife and I left for Hershey at 4am and entered the show field line at 10 of 8.From there on life was a nightmare. At 930 still in line my Buick boiled over and stalled. The car was pushed to the side and I opened the hood to let it cool.Untill now I was in a vary good and confident mood. I had the car judged in Binghamton and corected all but some minor paint chips on a door and rear quarter.By now its 1030 I expressed my thoughts to the chief judge amoung outhers and went to find the judgeing team for my class.Again I steped on toes and made the teaqm capt. unhappy, but they did decide they would judge my car where it sat. They arived at my car maby an hr. later and I introduced my self again to the capt. I informed him that the car had over heated and sprayed coolent all over.I also told him that I had the manufactures service man. with me and requested he speek with me befor takeing any points off in my engine compartment. This resulted in a sarcastic remark from the team capt. and from there it was all down hill. I must have hurt his feelings as he left and I didnt evan know it. Oh well, stuff happens. After the team left I and 2 outhers from Binghamton went to look at the outher cars in my class. There where two. also atempting there senior award. Both of them had blatent manditory deductions and my spirets rose as lookin close I felt I was still the high point car,untill I overheard one of the judges say ( he told me he added it Its not right but i consider it a safty issue so I let it slide.) Congrats. judge, I was upset and may have took it out on you. For that Im sorry. You never had the grace to even say hellow goodby or kiss my bottom. You took it out on me and slunk off. I would rather be me.As far as the 10 point rule, Im for it, but we need to have recorse or protest if you will for the owner that gets screwed by a judge that hasnt a clue or lets things slide or just plane makes up the rules as he sees fit. We have instant replay for everything from football to tidley winks. We need to fix the 10 point rule.

From your post, it isn't the 10 point rule that needs fixing, but the team captain does. Hopefully withthe new program to certify team captains, a lot of these kind of actions will be fixed. This was the first year for it so it may take a little while.

I'm not certified in the new program but ended up as team captain at Hershey even though I wrote on my form I sent in "perfer field judge only". So much for doing like they tell us in judging school for those of us that don't want to be a team captain.

Remember too, (this still doesn't excuse the team captin) at Hershey it is a little bit of a mad house and he could have been dealing with other issues too. I was busy from judge's breakfast until 10 trying to locate all the cars I (my team) had to judge.

Windjamer, I can't quite tell from your post... Did you get the Senior Award or not?

"I requested he speak with me before taking any points off my engine compartment". This statement shows a basic lack of understaning as to how AACA judging works. "Minor paint chips on a door and rear quarter". You don't think you should have lost points for these problems? They judged your car and it was not actually on the show field? Was this fair to the other owners? You are saying that a Judge congratulated an owner on the field implying that he had "won"? If this is true that is a flagrant violation of policy. You saw "blatant mandatory deductions" on the other two vehicles in your class? Please explain what these items were. You do know that only the Team Captain is supposed to talk to the car owner? Sorry you had a bad day. I suggest you attend Judging School at your first oppportunity for a better understanding of how the AACA Judging system is supposed to work.

No MC, I did not. My first atempt at senior was at Binghamton. AS a small part of the staf for the meet I had access to the registration and knew in advance who was registered in my class. I also knew I had as much chance of rec. an award as that sno-ball in hades.One of the cars was A former class press. I both admire and respect he has helped me with advice more than once and i consider him a frend,I also knew he would show with a near perfect car. I still entered thinking I would get some pos. feedback. As expected I did not rec. an award and sent for my judging sheet. I was vary suprised at the minor points listed and with one exception would have made the same deductions, in truth I was realy pleased. Now on to Hershey. One deduction was for spark plug wires. My wires came from the local Buick dealer are labled delco and the corect # acording to the book. Im going to look I think I still have the sales slip. I also rec. a deduction for body bolts. My Buick is a 10 year frame off rest. and all bolts and mtgs. came from Buick. Go figure, there was a ded. for the water pump, no shi-, the whole mtr. was covered with coolent from overheating.There is nothing to be done now,and I realy dont know if I will show the car at aaca again. I will continue in judging and I promiss to rase hel- with ANY judge I see not performing to aaca standards. I CAN say my car was looked at by folks from Flint MI. and I was invited to I should say asked to show it at a concors event they are planing for 2008. Who knows ??

32 I had a tiny chip on the left door a second SMALL stone chip on the lower left quater, IF YOU are familure( Iknow its spelled wrong) with judging this is a 1 or 2 pt ded. each.Total of 4. I may not be able to spell, but Im damm good at addition.I have judged at hershey and attended the schools for almost 10 years now. also my car WAS on the field, just not in the proper class. Gosh, come to think of it there where a lot of us out of place. Thank you, Dick

Please don't condemn the system based on one bad experience at Hershey. Hershey was sort of chaotic this year in my view anyway. Remember that any system is only as good as the people in it. From your description, it sounds like some deductions were taken for condition due to the overheating. That sounds like an error on the part of the judges to me, but it might not have been. Is it possible that there was some slight rust developing on some of the correct bolts or something similar to that? I know that on my older restoration Model A, I have to touch up some slight surface rust on bolts and other things every now and then. It is important to always take a close look at all of those small difficult to notice things that could cost a point here and there for condition.

Some people had problems at Hershey this year. Some others don't seem to want to admit that there were any problems at all. With that said, I still encourage you to not give up on the system. Write the VP of Class Judging and make him aware of your concerns. He is very responsive and is working very hard to continue to improve the judging system. Keep trying and Good Luck. Maybe the third time is the charm.

I'm more concerned with what you saw as misconduct on the part of a judge. If that judge congratulated an owner on a win then he or she should certainly be reported. Also, if mandatory deductions were missed those judges need to be "re-educated". I'm surprised that you received your highlighted judging sheet back from headquarters this quickly. Yes, there were more than the usual number of problems at this years Hershey. Team members now have the opportunity to critique the performance of their Team Captain. I believe there were also cars judged that ended up being pushed onto the field. Again, this is contrary to the rules but I think justifiable under the circumstances. Maybe all this discussion will lead to some improvement for next year.