As of today (June 30) the gloves are off with GM! Our friend above has offered to put previous correspondence and other information in the hands of GM's CEO directly! Timing is everything. I had asked Buick Customer Service for a response by today. They didn't do it, so now their BIG Boss will hear our problems. At the very least, he may wonder why they (Buick) never got back to me and why it had to end up on HIS plate. <BR>

Gentlemen, (and Ladies)<BR> Are we blessed with a Lawyer amongst this eclectic group of enthusiasts, My layman's logic tells me this may be fodder for a Class Action Suit. From the 23 incidents on record were there damages resulting, were there bodily injuries resulting. If a number of Insurance Companies have paid out substantial Claims moneys they may well be willing partners in such an action.<BR> Several questions come to mind; Why was the brake system changed-Cost? Engineering improvement? Early in-service failures? Anything in this system unique to Reattas?<BR> Discovery Phase after initiation of an action might find those answers. <BR> Auto Makers are corporate animals, descisions are made on the risk and reward logic, there was I recall that infamous case, The Pinto? where the Corporate descision was taken that liability for a calculated number of injuries was less expensive then a vehicle recall/remediation. Have we been religated to the same end? <BR> Another question for the Lawyers, are we as owners potentially negligent for continuing to operate these vehicles with the knowledge that the braking system is prone to total failure should we be involved in an accident where brake system failure was deemed to be the cause? <BR> I live in Canada, we as Canadians are not considered to be as litigious as our American neighbours to the South, your efforts with NHTSA may not directly benifit vehicle owners in Canada unless there is a GM recall as a result of this problem. <BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by GM Ross (edited 07-01-2000).]

Class action suits are a royal pain in the @ss. I've been involved in a couple of them (not as originator, I just "fell into" the class). I'm not ruling out that option, eventually, but it's the sort of thing that should be done very carefully and with some real forethought. For example, if there have been fatalities related to this problem, we may never know it. Even in cases where the driver survived, police officers filling out a crash report are reluctant to say "the brakes failed" on a nice looking late model car. They almost always figure it was driver error (which it almost always is). Consider the problem with a panic stop. Your car goes careening off the road because one wheel locked up. There will be skid mark evidence, but that's only captured if the accident reconstruction team is called to the scene. The normal law enforcement officer just isn't equipped to interpret the signs, and that report becomes a legal document.<P>So, starting now, I think we need a test case. If you, God forbid, experience these problems and are in a wreck, insist on an accident reconstruction team's evaluation. That will give us the evidence we need.<P>There usually is information on fatals from such teams. I can look in the data to see how many Reattas have been involved in fatal crashes and see if any of them have the full treatment of a reconstruction. That way, there would be skid mark measurements.<P>This will take some time. The only place this is ALL captured is at the state level. I suspect we can start with a few states (CA, FL, ???) where Reattas are most plentiful.<P>Thanks for thinking of it. You've given me an excellent idea for followup.<P>

Have identified a fatal crash involving a Reatta in Florida in 1999. I will try to purchase the traffic homicide investigation (THI) report from the State Patrol. This costs $25 and can't be released if there are criminal charges pending. Otherwise, I should have it in a few weeks. I'm looking for brake related indicators. Will let everyone know. I'm going to canvas other states too, but it'll take some time.<P>Bob<BR>

Bob -<P>That's some nice work on the Reatta crash in Fl. One question - I'd like to look at the data for Minnesota, so where does one go to get such accident data?<BR>

As some of you may know I am setting up a site in which you can participate in a petition to the NHTSA regarding the problems with the ABS on this car. <P>I have been looking around and found the <a href="http://allante.org/BB1/">Allante Discussion Group</a>, and there are stories of the exact type of failures we have been experiencing. It makes sense considering the close relation of our cars.<P>I also requested info in accidents involving Brake Failures in Reattas from the California Highway Patrol. No answer yet, but as soon as I hear anything I'll post here.<P>Jim. <P>I just found this, apparently there have been no findings released:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.autonews.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+autonews.nab.ShowArchiveArtical?id=191786&type=archive&query=ALLANTE" TARGET=_blank>http://www.autonews.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+autonews.n ab.ShowArchiveArtical?id=191786&type=archive&query=ALLANTE</A> <P>[This message has been edited by wheresjim (edited 07-06-2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by wheresjim (edited 07-06-2000).]

Great detective work Jim! I'm amazed at the response they got from NHTSA, but is exactly the response we are looking for. Similar sets of circumstances and almost identical data.<P>Wouldn't it be terrible if BOTH the Bosch and Teves ABS for the late 80's early 90's were found to be defective? I mean, what a terrible thing to have forced this stuff down the consumers' throats only to have it actually CAUSE crashes.<P>Anyway, one bright spot on the Allante site, there are now rebuilders for the Bosch ABS who will fix the problems for "far less than $1000". If that is the case, there are likely to be rebuilders for Teves system as well, which was, I gather, more common and less complicated.<P>

I did a little research in the library and I found that the following cars of the same period used the Teves system:<P><a href="http://www.remarq.com/read/13104/q_tGDOedy_dgAAAAA?idx=0&si=group&sg=alt%2Eautos%2Egm&q=abs&srn=FIRST">Pontiac Bonneville</a>, 6000<P>Olds 88, 98, Toronado, Delta 88, Royale, and 98 Regency (note:88 and 98 refer to models, not year)<P>Caddillac Deville, Fleetwood, Eldorado and Seville<P>Of course the Rivera also had the same system. Just thought some of you would find this interesting.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by wheresjim (edited 07-07-2000).]

Jim,<P>I passed your list on to NHTSA along with a request that they please tell us how the decision is made on whether to investigate or not. I have not heard one word from them (even a simple acknowledgement of my packet of material would've been nice). I have a conference at the end of this month which is attended by a lot of NHTSA folks. If I haven't heard back by then, I'll ask for some inside help.<P>Bob

Apparently Saab also used a Teves system in theier 9000s of the period, but if it's the same as ours is anybody's guess...