Mike and I are not fighting........just trying to get the details worked out for the Reatta owners out there.

What happens if a "Diamond White" Reatta is entered in Buick 400 point judging?

It is up to the owner to document the availablity. I cannot tell the owner how to go about doing this but if there are GM/Buick execs out there that have info this would be helpful. Documentation solves the problem.

Example. The 7 convertibles in Cleveland with white interiors, would have come with window stickers. Since the white interior was a $100 option, it would be clearly documented on the window sticker and/or the dealer invoice, problem solved.

Also, within the BCA and most other clubs (Corvette & Mustang are some of the strictest) dealer installed options do not count. I know of several Reattas with vinyl roofs, not acceptable. A two-tone Reatta would also not be factory, but could have been done by a dealer. Another good example is the cell phone. It was an option on the Riviera and since the two cars were closely related, several Reattas have cell phone installed, using factory parts, but only the two 1989 red cars were actually done within GM and those were not done on the assembly line, they were done as an exercise...it may not have even been an official thing. Zones have facilities to work on cars and these two zone guys (they both were done in Dallas) may have decided to add them to their company cars, so officially the cars belonged to GM .........stories seem to change with time and how and why they were installed may never truely be known.

One of the reasons I got involved with Reatta history was to attempt to accumulate information before it got lost and contaminated. I worked as an engineer for many years and part of my job was sort of like an industrial CSI investigator. Machines would be returned from the field with some story about how they failed.......our job was to verify and fix the problem.
I like to work with facts, documentation, and will accept a first hand account as long as it comes from the source, not hearsay.

Folks please, we are talking about what ? 100 cars maybe. Drop in the bucket to GM. I suspect if we had access to the build records that there would be notations like "route to engineering" or "body in aisle" (at Pontiac this was a giveaway that something special was going on. Another was a car routed to a zone office instead of a dealer.

The entire Super Duty 421 program was quasi-hidden, what you looked for was a stripped Catalina (and not always a Cat, were Bonnes and GPs also) listed with all HD equipment, a three speed transmission, and a 2bbl 389 engine.

Point is that *anything* was possible, probably a dozen cars a year were just routed to engineering to play with and any swap imaginable could happen there. No EPA or DOT concerns, were a stack of "manufacturers" plates by the door. Some undoubtely wound up in employees garages.

Case in point, the picture below was taken during the winter of 1970. You may notice some decidely non-stock things about the '70 GS in the background. Lets just say I was going to school in Flint at the time.

Barney is exactly right. neither of us are predisposed to arguments; we just look at things differently.

with selling Reatta parts being my business, I receive many calls from customers both new and old. one week here answering phones would change a disbelieving person into a convert about what is out there.

for example, we have a very good customer in the Palm Springs area. he has owned ten Reattas, and presently has four. he is also a certified car nut, and knows Reattas inside and out. for those not familiar with Palm Springs, this is a highly concentrated area for Reattas. we have over 100 customers in this area alone.

recently Marc saw a 1990 convertible that was an unusual color. it was not gold (driftwood), but beige. specifically, Camel Beige, GM color #57. this was not a color "available" on Reattas, but was a standard GM color in 1990.

however, here it was. no, it wasn't an Earl Scheib repaint, but was the original color ordered by the original and present owner. it had matching moldings, and a saddle top and interior. I just talked to Marc this morning, and the next time he sees it, he will get the VIN number, and if possible, the numbers on the sticker in the trunk. Marc's first Reatta was a 1990 coupe that was driftwood with a garnet red (burgundy) interior. this was another unusual color combination.

I have talked to literally thousands of Reatta owners over the years. one thing that has struck me was the absolute sincerity of everyone. I also noticed that by and large they are a very intelligent bunch, and not prone to stretching the truth. after all, we're not dealing with a bunch of stoner kids with slammed Mitsubishi Eclipses here. if they tell me something, I generally believe it, and don't need to see any documentation for me to believe it is true. they have absolutely no reason to make anything up.

my beliefs along these lines come from not only being a car nut, but also a new-car dealer for over ten years. I've seen a lot of strange things over the years that defy explaination.

for example, back in 1986, I was in Thousand Oaks (CA) doing a dealer trade on a new Dodge. still on a transport truck were seven new dark blue Fifth Avenues. these were built for the Secret Service for use near Reagan's ranch north of Santa Barbara. the cars all had a gold stripe (dark blue and gold are the Presidential colors), even though this was not an allowable color combination. the stripe would had either been silver or blue. the window sticker showed a "blue stripe", yet here was a gold stripe. Chrysler's internal computer would not allow the input of an unallowable color, so blue was input, even though gold was installed. this is the same explaination given to me about a lot of the variants of Reattas. I believe them, and know in the future that this will be found to be true.

I did call on the 1991 Reatta convertible (now sold) that was for sale on ebay at Peacock Buick in Virginia. although it looked black, it was indeed dark blue (specifically code 28, midnight blue metallic, or black sapphire in Cadillac-speak). this would certainly be an interesting one for Barney to follow up on, as the VIN number was clearly displayed in the listing.

I firmly believe that there were many Reattas that were painted non-standard colors at the factory. I don't necessarily know exactly how this difference was recorded, but I know what I've seen.

Barney is exactly right about the Reatta project employees being the best of the best, with even the assembly workers being hand-selected. this just backs up my understanding that the Craft Centre was given virtual carte blanche to do whatever they felt was best to satisfy their customers, without the usual GM hierarchy.

Mike

>>...The Reatta project employees being the best of the best, with even the assembly workers being hand-selected. this just backs up my understanding that the Craft Centre was given virtual carte blanche to do whatever they felt was best to satisfy their customers, without the usual GM hierarchy. <<

Would this also have included drivetrain modifications, like manual trannies, performance engines, etc.?

I would say no to that one. during the time the Reatta was built, things had changed considerably from the "good old days".

specifically, any engine or transaxle change would require a complete 100,000 mile-plus EPA (and GM) durability cycle, and it just wasn't worth the trouble for such small numbers. there is a big difference between building a non-standard paint or color combination, and changing a drivetrain.

there was never a manual transmission offered for any 3800 engine. the largest V-6 engine GM offered with a manual transmission was the 3.4 litre. it was only available with the manual in the Lumina Z34 and certain specific Grand Prix models.

this is not to say that some unusual cars have not and will not surface. many of the prototypes have ended up in private hands, especially the hands of folks close to the Reatta project. in the next few years, I think quuite a few more will surface as people either stop driving or pass on.

it will be a very interesting next few years!

Mike

The dark blue 1991 convertible on Ebay has been pulled (Ebay #4612467365)

This was built as a Maui Blue car and it does not appear to have a pin stripe so that semi-confirms it is a repaint. If the pictures are still viewable, there is a very small area just behind the passanger door, where the black tape is on convertilbes and the Maui blue is showing.

I noticed it had pulled as well and was wondering why. What a great deal it would have been, despite the repaint, to have a '91 convertible with 30,900 miles on it for less than $15,000!

"there was never a manual transmission offered for any 3800 engine. the largest V-6 engine GM offered with a manual transmission was the 3.4 litre."

Quibble. In the later '90s, the Camaro/Firebird was available with a longitudinal 3800 and a manual transmission.

Double quibble: the new G6 GTP is available with a 240 hp 3900 engine and a six speed manual.
Specs here. This is an iron block aluminum head engine with VVT but I do not know what its heritage is.

Padgett,

I do stand corrected. I've always been confused by the FWD/RWD 3800/3.8 issue. I've been told that the only thing they share is displacement, as the RWD version does not have balance shafts.

is this correct?

Mike

reminds me: would be cool to have an L67 in a Firebird

Came close - 1989 TTA

Thanks, again Barney!!

Mine is #445, used to be owned by Dallas Mayor.

#591 is the other WI car in the database. Would like to locate this one.

Good eyes, Barney. I see the Maui blue too.

Here is another example of a unusual 1990, see Ebay #4612120486

This car has the red(burgundy) interior in a bright red car. This was a non-approved color combination. However, about 5 have surfaced and they all have the D60 code for color override. Look at the window sticker and it also has the factory cloth top.

The 1990 Buick Product Manual (the Bible for salesmen to follow) shows some interesting items on the convertible tops. It says that white and tan were available in vinyl and red, blue, and black were available in cloth.

So far, I have only found one early convertible with a red top and one with a blue top. It appears the colors were not available but I cannot find a bulletin that informs the sales department to stop ordering them.
There were several convertibles built with the black cloth top and a car with a factory cloth top is easy to verify. The code for black cloth was 19T, the code for black vinyl was 41T

I'm not sure on the numbers, but my 91 has factory original tan cloth (and it is in amazing conditions still).

Paul...I am always interested in cars like yours. The only tan cloth top Reatta we have found was the prototype/pilot car that Mike now has in his possession.

Would you please send me an email and we can talk about your car. I want to make certain it is on my database. Barney@texas.net

Barney, I have sent you an e-mail, but thought I'd also post that I know it is the original top by the date on the rear window glass.

I don't see anything wrong with recording things like colors and VINs. If someone's not getting your contact info etc, who cares? I don't think Barney and others are ashholes about adding VINs to the registry

Just thought I would bump an interesting thread that started in 2003 and resurfaced in 2006, has it been an interesting few years?

91conv... the date on the rear window only tells us that the window is original. Some of the replacement tops come without a window and the installer must move the window from the original top to the replacement.

I am traveling and will return home on 7/30, I want to review the information about your car and give you the best information we have about these cars.

I have no interest in cutting down a persons car or proving something is not original. My goal is to give each Reatta owner the facts. The "Service Parts Label" in the trunk, next to the spare, contains each cars DNA.

Nuthin' like ressurecting an old, yet informative & useful thread!

Barney, Mike, and others have inserted rewarding info here, and it's time to reply with newer updates.

I don't need to bother other collectors who don't want attention drawn to thier cars, but would like to know if thier cars exist, thru VIN/build code/color set data. And such info alone could enhance the database's precision, in relation to the few '91 drop-tops left in existance. We, (the collectors/enthusiasts of the '91 convertibles), need this info to verify our cars' level of rarity/collectibility, as our cars' status is questioned by most other collector/enthusiasts. It's time for the collector community to recognize the Reatta, for it's rarity, style and drive-ability. Solid data can only help.

From conversations with Barney and other Reatta division founders, I have learned the other '91 Black/Black/Flame red convertibles have met with a host of un-timely demises. I've searched for Black Beauty's siblings for a couple years now, and found only one - the last Reatta convertible built, Beauty's youngest sister. Previously thought to be moth-balled in GM's Heritage collection, I've not been able to get anyone at GM to verify her existance, nor location. As recently as June, 2008 the only word I got from GM was "we don't know where she is."

While in Flint for the BCA Nats/GM 100th parade, I spoke with the rep for Nicola Bulgari, (the owner of all the cars currently displayed in the Sloan museum), after the BCA dinner. Turns out Mr. Bulgari, (who designed the cluster for the new Cadillac XLR), has come into possesion of the last '91 Reatta convertible, (vin #466). He verified the car's color set without prompting, "Black/Flame red". The owner prefers to collect the last produced of his favorite models, and somehow got his hands on this rare beauty, straight out of the heritage collection.

This still leaves Beauty as the only Black/Flame '91 convertible on the road, (vin #445), and the last to be available for viewing, attending BCA events, etc.

I can't wait to see what happens when GM decides to sell other Heritage cars, especially the Y-Job! A sale of such proportions could save GM from thier financial problems, for at least a couple months!