I am considering a Reatta convertible. What are the differences between '90 and '91? What should I be aware of/wary of on either?
Thanks
Alan Oldfield
adoldfield@aol.com
BCA #15140
Rdiv #640

You can go to www.reatta.net for a list of the changes for all years.

The only differences in the convertible (that I can think of)
(1) the top had power pull down in 1991. You will note that all printed material claims that the 1990 did also, but I have yet to see a 1990 with power pull down.
(2) the brace inside the engine compartment was changed in 1991 on the convertible only. The 1990 had a tubular brace like all other Reattas, the 1991 convertible had a black metal stamping on each side between the radiator bulkhead and the fender.

The discussion will go on forever about which year is better. My opinion is that no single improvement made the 1991 better, but combined, the 1991 has several items that make it the better choice, if you have a choice.

Barney, I'm curious, wasn't the Teves brake system elimated with an improved version also?
thanks,
curt

One consideration is that the 91 is probably more collectible as there were substatialy fewer 91's built. It will also make them harder to find and generaly fairly more expensive. I've heard it said, and agree, that for future value the two best years are the 88 and 91. First and last production respectively. Good luck in your quest. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by padgett

The question was "the difference between 1990 and 1991 convertibles" There are several differences between 1990 and 1991 Reattas but the items I mentioned are unique to the convertibles.

Yes the 1991 is much rarer than the 1990, ...1991 production was about 7% of 1990 production. However the 1991 coupe is also rare, they made 1214 coupes in 1991 or a number about half of the 1990 convertible production. Any way you want to massage the numbers, all Reattas are fairly rare compared to other production American cars.

Be aware the 1991 convertibles generally sell for DOUBLE the price of the 1990.

In 1991, 305 were built, only 196 hit the road, 46 given to GM execs, 150 sold to the public.

The only LINE of production convertibles with 200 or less built since the 1959 Cadillac ElDorado Brougham with only 101 built.

The Eldo Brougham goes for SIX FIGURES these days.

One '91 ragtop is advertised on Auto trader $23,900 (not a high price), even money on a new Solstice!

two sold last year at $27K (@67k miles) and $36K (@6k miles), even money on a new Escalade!

Wonder what a Barret-Jackson style auction would bring, none have shown up there lately.

Barney, does your database, (at 100% on the '91 Reattae), include any totalled-out cars? Do you have any idea how many are left?

First you will note the 1991 is the only year we have 100% of the vins listed. Thank Stan Leslie (former Reatta division president) for his work in compiling all the '91 vins.

Next look at just the convertibles (identified by the 33 in the vin number) and you will see 45 that say Donated. These are the cars that Buick gave to schools for training. These cars belong to GM (they have Michigan scrap titles) and cannot be driven on the road.

When you try and pinpoint the actual numbers, the picture gets fuzzy.
We all agree there were 305 convertibles built in 1991. I have the vins on 45 that were donated, that leaves a maximun of 260 that went to the public. The Collectible Automobile article (Feb 06) by Gary Witzenburg has some numbers from Dunham and Gustins book that says 238 were sold to the public.

We may never know the actual number but Dunham and Gustin have connections within GM and their number is the best we have. What happened to the 22 convertibles between 260 and 238? My number of scrapped cars was hand generated by a person in the donated cars department. They could have missed one or two sheets of paper. Also were the five cars that went to the electric car project in that number? Until we fill in all the vins on the database, we may never know the exact number.

Your other question.....does the list include wrecked/scrapped cars and the answer is YES if people send me the information.

So if you find a Reatta in a junk yard or anywhere else, send me the vin and colors. I will add the car to the database. I will not add a car with only the color (I don't know where to put it and it might already be on the database unless we know the vin) I don't like to add cars with only the vin number as that doesn't tell us much except that vin was built. Send as much info as you can.

The database has helped identify 61 of the 65 Select Sixty convertibles built in 1990. We have also identified about 5 of the 55 Select Sixty coupes built in 1988, these are much harder to find without the hood emblem.

I pasted some info from reattadudes' post some reatta mysteries solved.

I'll try to find the data which led me to the 150 sold statements I've made.



Great thread, check it out, guys!!

Keep in mind that the '91 gained the 4T60e and the series 1 3800 (TPI!). Slight gain in HP but then again there's a small aftermarket for this engine

The 1991 "clone" was not a clone but Buick made the white seat an option (they probably has some left over and wanted to get rid of the parts.) The white wheels were also an option, but were not part of the white interior option.

The information I have ............. The white wheels were available on white cars only..coupe or convertible at $100.

The white seat option (convertibles only) was listed as " White Sierra Ultra Soft Leather/Sierra Vinyl Interior" They were available with standard or 16 way seat option and with two trim color choices, red and blue.

White with red trim was available with silver, white, black,or bright red exterior.

White with blue trim was available with silver, white, blue, or grey exterior.
The option cost $100 extra on either the standard or 16 ways seats.

The information I have came from Mr. Englin who worked in Reatta management and ordered a 1991 loaded convertible. He showed me the internal letter requesting the car as he was eligable for an exec. car, I have a copy and it is dated March 13, 1991. He then purchased the car. It was for sale at 2003 Flint and now belongs to a Reatta divison member in northern Florida.

Mr. Englins car was white exterior, white top, white 16 way seats with blue trim. The car also had CD player and white wheels. This would be every option available on a Reatta and have the highest MSRP of any Reatta.

Because of his position and interest in the car, he was able to provide me with a list of all the 1991's sold with white interiors. This was not a list of vins but just the options sold. I have since identifed the cars by vin number.

Here are the numbers.
vin #900381 = white ext, white/red seats 16 way
vin #900616 = white ext, white/red seats 16 way
vin #900372 = white ext, white/blue seats 16 way ..this is the Englin car
vin #900615 = white ext, white/blue standard seats
vin #900561 = maui blue ext, white/blue standard seats

It is interesting that of all the exterior color choices available, they only built 4 white exteriors and 1 blue. You can look at the database and if known, it will show what state the cars are in.

PS.. this information was published in the Reatta newsletter, If you want this kind of information on Reattas, you should join the Reatta division.

there are actually over 4,000 changes that were made from 1990 to 1991, and the majority were items that you couldn't see.

one of the biggest changes was with the electrical system. the 1988-1990 Reatta used a Central Power Supply (CPS) to control most interior functions (windows, door locks, interior lighting, radio, A/C, etc.). in 1991, the CPS was eliminated; all wiring is different.

there is no question that the 1991 models are by far the most valuable. there have been several convertibles we know of that have sold within the past year in the $40,000 range. these were all cars with less than 10,000 miles. a nice coupe with low mileage will easily bring $15,000. they will only go up in value.

I do stand by our original statement about the number of 1991 Reatta convertibles that were sold. there were 106 cars that were destroyed; 46 that were put in the GM executive program and sold to GM employees in a lottery system with they reached 7,500 miles. the balance (153) which were sold thru the normal dealer network.

as far as the 106 destroyed cars go, some were sent to trade schools first, with the expressed understanding that they be destroyed when they were finished with them. GM was quite specific about this, requiring that the drivetrain and all wiring be removed, and then the balance of the car be cut in three pieces.

this does not mean that all the "destroyed" cars met with this fate. we have the first prototype convertible here, and it had been donated to a trade school in Santa Barbara, California. we found it in a wrecking yard in Santa Barabra, and bought it. the only thing that had been removed was the engine and transmission. this car has only 82 miles on the odometer. it has a 1988 serial number, and a 1990 dashboard. even the air bag assembly has "001" engraved on the back with a Dremel tool, and all the struts have "GM engineering prototype" labels on them.

for those who don't believe that the "grim reaper" doesn't get them all, just watch the reruns of the Barrett-Jackson auction in Scottsdale. that 1953 Bonneville that they featured was scheduled for the crusher, too.

the reason that we stand by the numbers is that the person who was in charge of the 1991 convertible program, Tony Alberto, is a customer of ours. he spent seven months in Florida overseeing all the testing, and remembers the actual numbers. he drove a "#1" (destroy) car the whole time he was there, and said he couldn't tell the difference between the cars that were to be destroyed, and the cars that were to be sold. the decision was not up to him, however; the decision was left up to the project engineers.

his information is also backed up by Bob Thompson (also a customer). Bob was the Reatta project manager, and still has one of the executive program cars. it is black with a slate gray interior, and stays at his winter home in Florida.

it amazes me how many of these 1991 convertibles are out there. we presently have 43 customers who own them, and just picked up another new customer today. he lives in Florida, and has two identical ones, both white/white top/white moldings, and flame red interiors. one has 3,200 miles, and the other 18,000.

as far as the Gary Witzenburg article in Collectible Automobile goes, I found it left a lot to be desired. there was a lot of incorrect information, and I was amazed how few forum members had photographs of their Reattas featured. I was really surprised, because forum members have some of the nicest Reattas on the planet. it seems strange that there was not a posting on the forum for photographs of member's cars for the article.

Mike, buick reatta parts.com

I found it! Or, it found ME!



Thank you for your knowledgeable input, Mike!!

Barney, how many 1991 Black/flame red convertibles were made?

Thanks, Barney!

The answer to my last question was contained in your Reatta Database!

Only NINE(9) 1991 Reatta convertibles were built in black with flame red interior, they all had black tops and body molding.

Mine was the 6th to be built in this color combo.

The last one built was the last Reatta convertible made, and was kept by GM.

2 were donated and 1 has no records on file.

Does this mean only 5 or 6 may be available, including mine?

No wonder I have'nt seen any others, anywhere!

My '91 black w/grey was purported to be the one used in the picture with the Y-job. No way of proving it, but it makes a great story. Also, the '91's had a cup holder, the 90's did not. Heck, that makes it worth 10K more right there!

First I am thrilled to see someone actually using the database.
Randy there were only 7 with red interior. Look closely and there are two coupes built in sequence with the convertibles and that is what threw your count off.

Bob, 13 black convertibles with grey interior. Like you say, no way of verifying the car in the picture.

The rare black car would be the one built with grey interior and white top.

I know where there are two more black/flame red 1991 convertibles. a GM dealer in rural Kentucky has them. they are both still brand new, and sitting (inside) on blocks. I saw them about two years ago.

Mike

Let me get this right,

Only 7 black/flame red '91 drop-tops,

1, the last Reatta convertible built, kept by GM,

2 donated by GM, out of circulation,

leaving only 4 cars available,

2 are new, stored in Kentucky,

leaving only 2 cars, MINE and one last known to be in Wisconsin in 1994.

So, Wisconsin is home to half the remaining cars! Unless the other one up here has met with an early demise!

I'm gonna try to find it! Even though it had more miles in 1994 than mine has now.

Thanx, Barney and Mike, for your input and expertise. I knew when I bought this car from LarryK it was rare, just not 1 of 5 in existence.

I have talked to Mike about the cars he has seen and the big problem is the owners will not let him take pictures or record the vin numbers. This creates problems trying to verify and track the cars.

With the input from Stan Leslie, we have built the 1991 database and it is very accurate. I can go to my dealer, enter a vin number and get all the information on how it was built (colors and options)

Because this is time consuming and there are lots of cars. There are still some voids on the Red and white cars. I started doing them by colors, because we know they did fewer, grey, silver, blue, green and burgundy cars. We also get input from owners so we have some of the Red, white and black cars listed, but they do not have the options identified or their location.

I have also spent lots of time on the Donated cars. I am starting a historic scrap book on them and hope to have pictures of the remaining cars. At this time I have pictures on 11 of the 45 and 3-4 have already been scrapped.

Now that I explained how the database was created, here is the info on the 7 black 1991 convertibles with red interior. The location is the last known.

#900399 = Donated and is in Harrisburg PA
#900401 = Donated and is in Troy NY
#900443 = Michigan
#900445 = Calif
#900515 = Unknown, this means it probably has not been titled or could be out of the US. It could be one of the cars in KY
#900591 = Wisc. this should be Randys car.
#900622 = Owned by GM, last 1991 convertible made.

Without vin numbers, we will never know which cars are in KY

I have attached a picture of the GM decal placed on the windshield of the donated cars.

Some of the cars that were donated did make there way in to the real world.

The first Reatta I even saw was donated to a local trade school and they didn't want it, So they sold it to a friend of mine. It was licensed and he drove it in the summer.

Barney,

its not always a matter of owners not wanting the information made public; it is also our desire as well.

I don't feel that this data is required to be in the public domain. I have personally seen 183 new Reattas over the past four years, and do know where every one is. whether it is the two 1991 black convertibles in rural Kentucky, or eleven brand new Reattas in a climate-controlled building in the Cleveland area, the owners' secrets are safe with us.

why?

these folks deserve their privacy. if their information and location is made public, there will be a bunch of people who will be going to have a look at them. if the owners of these cars wanted to sell them (or show them), they would. at the present, most just want to keep them, for whatever reasons.

there have been a few of the cars that have been sold recently. we helped to put a buyer and seller together this past August on a 1990 convertible in central California with 9 miles on the odometer. the sale price was $67,000. by the way, the lucky buyer turned it into a daily driver. nothing like a brand-new 16 model-year old car!

we have passed on information before to you about several unusual cars we have seen (that maui blue/saddle 1990 convertible that was used on the Canadian Auto Show circuit comes to mind), and lets just say that the owners did not appreciate being "raked over the coals" about the authenticity of their car. we won't let that happen again...we have way too much respect for them. by the way, the Canadian gentleman who owns that car (he is the one I sent you his ski lodge address in Stowe, VT) sent us photos later showing the car on the auto show turntable, complete with its matching mirrors that were so much "in question".
as everyone associated with the Reatta project has told us, the much-vaunted production log, to put it mildly, is not accurate (I believe the term was 'a work of fiction'). we know from what we have seen to believe their statements, not the log's.

Tom Payette, a former Buick dealer in Lousiville, KY, has mentioned several times before having the Buick rep come in and ask what special car they could build for him. we have seven photos from a large Buick dealer in Cleveland (not the same one that has the eleven new ones) which show seven different Reatta convertibles (they were NOT select sixtys), all with white interiors. these were some of the most striking cars I've ever seen, with the silver/silver moldings/white leather with gray trim being my favorite. of course, there is not one of these in the "production log" showing a white interior. hmmm.

we went thru the same thing with the maui blue/white leather convertible that we sold at Barrett-Jackson in Palm Beach in 2003. you asked for the interior numbers on the data sticker in the trunk; it showed a blue interior. there was no code in 1990 for standard seats in white leather, so what should the code HAVE said? as the Reatta project folks have said repeatedly, they ordered about 500 sets of white seats, not just 65 sets for the 1990 select sixty convertibles. as Tony Alberto said, "do you think that GM could order 65 of anything?" you backed this up yourself when you pointed out that white door panels were still available in your 1993 parts catalog. if there were only, say, 80 pairs of these made (65 select sixtys, plus some replacements sent thru the parts network), there wouldn't be any extra ones left three years later.

another good example is the red convertible for sale right now on ebay. pull up that window sticker, and see "black cloth convertible top". it wasn't so long ago that many believed that there were never any cloth tops factory installed on convertibles, based soley on the fact that they had never seen one. my partner Randy and I disputed this (and were ridiculed for it), and then a lowly assembly worker with a scrapbook pulled out several photos of convertibles coming off the line with cloth tops when we were in the meeting in Flint in 2003. 'nuff said.

we have hundreds of photos of Reattas that we have seen. as many say, "read about everything in the book".

as we get closer to finishing the book, (and several magazine articles coming up), we will be posting here for photos of forum members' fabulous cars (even the modified ones!) for both the book and magazine articles. don't look for any photos of our own cars, however: this is about all of you, not us. we love to see all the passionate owners here, and don't feel this passion is best expressed by a 400 point judging system, but by seeing your very own car in a magazine article...and we promise not to bust you for non-stock valve stem caps.

Mike

Mike.... I don't remember a conversation about painted mirrors or anyone from VT. Also, while I talk to lots of people, if someone gives me a lead on a car, I am careful to verify that the owner is willing to talk about it and always identify myself and my reasons for calling.

It is hard for me to believe that the Reatta build (production control) was sloppy or out of control. This was not a fly-by-night, kit car company. All the people associated with the Reatta build had experience in their field and
when a build order is issued for a car, the line does not just assembly whatever options are available.

I won't disagree that there were special cars made. Color combinations that were not on the order form were built but that was covered in the codes. We have found many "color overide" code (D60) there were several 1990 bright red convertibles made with red (burgundy) interior and the codes have been varified by the owner.

There was a code (116) in 1990 and 1991 for white seats and it appears on the service parts label of the cars built with white seats. 11= white, 6= leather
I might believe one car slipped through production with the incorrect seat color but 7 cars to one dealer is difficult to justify.

While I understand the need for owner's privacy, what I do not understand is an unwillingness to share serial numbers and options in the data base. Nothing needs to be said about who or where.

Pontiac was able to make available billing records for every car made since 1961 and that information has been essential to forming a real understanding of what was made and where and when. That it also made fraudulent cloning impossible was a side benefit.

While I agree that GM could not make 65 of anything, 500 does not mean they all went into Reattas, Rivieras and I suspect a few other GM lines could mount the same seat.

So while I fully agree that full disclosure is neither necessary or warented, at least the serial numbers and "as built" information should be. I am surprised it is not available from Buick particularly since all were made in the same plant.

Barney,

you are right about not having a conversation with anyone from Vermont. the gentleman was from Toronto, and had a lodge in Vermont. I had given you the Vermont address, but you had communicated with him via email. my notes show the photos being sent to you on January 22, 2003. a maui blue/saddle convertible would indeed be hard to forget. we met him at the Barrett-Jackson auction in January, 2003 in Scottsdale. I remember this because he called me the next day to tell me that you felt the car was not the real thing. he was quite upset.

I never suggested that this was run like a "kit car" company. however, all the management I have spoken to said it was run like no other GM factory. I can't think of any other GM facility that had a customer/factory liason like Tony Alberto. he is the one who personally delivered Barbara Sinatra's car to the Sinatra compound in Palm Springs, and did so for many high-profile clients. Bob Thompson (project manager) also mentioned that if they ever had a car that had problems out in the field of a serious nature, they would build a duplicate within 24 hours and replace the problem car immediately. does this sound like standard GM procedure and protocol? I think not.

several points:

-if there was nothing off standard that was not recorded, how did Frank Sinatra Jr's three convertibles all come out of the factory with modified Corvette exhaust systems?

-I have said for several years that Reattas (also) came out of the factory with non-standard paint. I have seen five white diamond Reattas. right now, there is a black sapphire (blue) 1991 convertible for sale. here is another color that was never available on a Reatta (this is considerably darker than the 1988-1989 sapphire blue), but here it is. I doubt that this was a repaint: it was available on just about every other GM car in 1991, just not on a Reatta. Peacock Buick (sellers of this car) has been around forever, and this just reinforces what Tom Payette had mentioned about the factory bulding whatever the dealer wanted. I'm sure this was especially true in 1991, when dealers couldn't move Reattas at all.

-there is no question that the seats could (theoretically) be used in another E-body GM car. this is unlikey, however, as all other E-body lines with the exception of the Toronado already offered white interiors. the seat and sew styles were also quite different.

Mike

OK everyone get something sharp, go to a corner and wait for the bell to ring, then.........