Father Ron, in regards to your post the other night, you know how you go into this mess. You volunteered!! We also know you are someone we can openly talk to about AACA stuff and you can get the action taken that we can't as just one person. You speak, people listen. <P>I tough of this quick. you might like it.<P>23 psalms of the AACA DF<P>Father Ron is our shepherd; we shall not want.<P> He maketh us to lie down our wrenches: he leadeth us beside the still motors.<P> He restoreth his car: he leadeth us in the paths of restorations for AACA's sake.<P> Yea, though I surf through the DF's of cyberspace, I will fear no evil: for thou art with us; thy PC and thy posts they comfort me.<P> he preparest a thread for us in the presence of street rodders: thou anointest my head with motor oil; my beer cup runneth over.<P> Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the DF of the AACA for ever.<P>Hope you liked. See ya'll at Hershey<BR>

Yea verily! hvs<P>

His appearance might be slightly shaved on here(see best judges breskfast ever under the general fourm)But, Father Ron does have an answer for us and I'll let him post it.

LET US GO A LITTLE FURTHER ON THIS SUBJECT. WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE TIRES WITH COKER OR UNIVERSAL OR MADE IN CHINA, ETC. AND I'M SURE THERE IS MORE LETTERING ON THE MODERN REPLACEMENT TIRES THAT ARE AVAILABLE TODAY? WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE ON "AS IT LEFT THE FACTORY ".

Grinding off the word "Tubeless" is going from the subline to the rediculous. I don't know how so much of this stuff has been changed since the seventies when most of these rules were put into place. If the size tire from the factory is unavalble, anywhere, the rule has always been since the early days that you use the next best thing; i.e. 6.25x16 tires are not made, so you use either 6.00x16 or 6.50x16. That's easy because most judges wouldn't know better. HVS is absolutely correct, if the car is earlier than 1954 (using my memory here) then you put a tube into the tire. All this stuff about tire sizes was started in my time, 1978-79 when F-G-H size wide whitewalls were popular and Universal and others were making the correct sizes. <BR>Now for a new subject, almost. Late 1960s and early 1970s cars were offered with radial tires. Larger cars had H78x15 bias, or H70x15 wide oval or HR78x15 radials. None, and I repeat, none of those tires are made today, by any manufacturer. Other sizes available were Michelin radials of 215 or 225 or 235x15, but none of those had the P in front, or the R70 or R75 behind the 225. They aren't available either. A P225R75/15 is then, the closest tire size made today.<BR>Seems like we need some more thought about where we've been, where we are, and where we're going here.<BR>

No, not 30 years. Twenty-three years ago I took over teaching judging from George Liddel, and I never taught that. As delivered from the factory, WITHIN REASON. In those days many sizes were not made by anyone; and that is still true today, but to a lesser extent. AACA never deducted for the "DOT" markings required by law, or the name Coker or Universal. As I said earlier, and I started it, we deducted for letter tires in 15 inch sizes that were available in 1978 and much less expensive than 6.70x15 or 7.10x15, and people were using them. From there things seem to have gone to an extreme. However, with well over 100 judging credits, I've never known of a case where anybody took of points for the word "tubless" or the name of the company or the DOT marking. If it is being done, somebody needs to tell somebody to "get real".<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by red t:<BR><B>Like Howard, I lost my ID, but I'm back. I just don't understand all this discussion on the tubeless tires. For more than 30 years I have attended AACA judging schools and heard the famous statement "we judge cars as they were delivered to the dealers" , either we do or we don't! Everyone on this DF know that we don't. At any AACA Nat. show more than 90 percent of the vehicles on the showfield are not as they were delivered to the dealer. The committee allows for this variation and that variation , so why do we keep using this famous statement,when we know that it's not true. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

When restoring my 1948 Mercury Coupe, I could not find the proper 6.50 x 15 Firestone Whitewall Tires. After talking with Coker tire, I realized, they are not available! They don't make them, and the closest I could get was the 7.10 x 15. The problem with these is that they say tubeless on the side. I've showed the car at an Early Ford V-8 meet, and won Dearborn with it. Any car person, knows that this is the only tire you can get, so to take off points on a correctly restoed car just because the tires say tubelss is absolute nonsense. This rule should be changed, if it is not already.

Hokay - I'm back from Hershey where I attended the Judging Committee meeting. Regarding this thread here are the results.<P>1. Grinding the word Tubeless, or any other words or letters off of the tire will void any warrantees and should not in any way be construed as AACA policy or recommendation<P>2. If a tire has the Tubeless markings and is installed with a tube, there should be no deductions. This is consistent with an earlier post by hvs. This has always been the Judging Committee position, it has never changed, we are not "way off base".<P>3. The as they came from the factory has always been relative to size of tire and basic construction. This criteria does not include make of tire.<P>4. For tires sizes that are no longer available, use the closest size available with the same type construction.<P>The AACA Judging Committee establishes the criteria and does their best with the judging schools to educate the judges - an individual action by a field judge does not necessarily mean that AACA criteria has changed.

Ron: I'm restoring a 71 Riviera. On the inside of the glove box are listed all of the available tire sizes; which are more than those listed in the brochure. Radials are listed as HR78x15. Other tire sizes are H78x15 narrow whitewall bias and H70x15 wide oval. Also listed are radials with a Michelin size of 215R15 and 225R15. 7.75x15 is listed but not in red line which is available. White is not available. So, none of the sizes are available today, repeat, none. It would be dangerous and foolish to use a smaller tire that is avialable, i.e. F70x15 wide oval or a 4-inch whitewall H78x15 bias ply. Therefore, the correct size is (or should be) P215R7515 or P225R7515 radial. I saw such a tire deducted on a 72 Riviera in Florida two years ago. I hope that kind of mistake won't happen again.<BR>F <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ronbarn:<BR><B>Hokay - I'm back from Hershey where I attended the Judging Committee meeting. Regarding this thread here are the results.<P>1. Grinding the word Tubeless, or any other words or letters off of the tire will void any warrantees and should not in any way be construed as AACA policy or recommendation<P>2. If a tire has the Tubeless markings and is installed with a tube, there should be no deductions. This is consistent with an earlier post by hvs. This has always been the Judging Committee position, it has never changed, we are not "way off base".<P>3. The as they came from the factory has always been relative to size of tire and basic construction. This criteria does not include make of tire.<P>4. For tires sizes that are no longer available, use the closest size available with the same type construction.<P>The AACA Judging Committee establishes the criteria and does their best with the judging schools to educate the judges - an individual action by a field judge does not necessarily mean that AACA criteria has changed. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

jal48 ~ Unless I am very much mistaken the 1948 Mercury came equipped from the factory with 6.50x16 inch tires, which means the car had 16" wheels, NOT 15". Therefore 6.50x15 tires would be incorrect even if you could find them. Ford used 6,00x16 and I believe Merc used the 6.50's. The 7.10's were not introduced until 1949 along with the 6.70's, and ALL were 15". It was not uncommon in the late 50's and later for people to switch to 15" wheels on these cars as the 16" tires became unavailable. I know of a 1939 Packard, a 1940 LaSalle and a 1948 Pontiac, all converted to 15" wheels for that reason.<BR>Get the correct wheels and you will have no trouble finding the correct tires. ~ hvs

Father Ron, The WHOLE Judging Committes may NOT have been "off base" on the tubeless tire issue, but the committee member who suggested to me that the word "tubeless" should just be ground off WAS indeed off base. As I mentioned on an earlier post, there was definitely some confusion which needed to be addressed. Does anyone think this issue would have been brought up and addressed by the Committee had a few "bombs" NOT been thrown on this forum? I made the "off base" statement and I stand by it on an individual basis.<P>OK, the matter has been addressed and clarified. I now hope it will be addressed in future judging schools as there is SOME confusion among SOME judges.<P>Getting things moving in the right direction is my goal. hvs<P>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 10-09-2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by hvs (edited 10-09-2000).]

Mercury did use 15" wheels and tires! It was the Fords that used 16". Most 46-48 Fords came equipped with 6.00x16 or 6.50x16 tires. However, the Mercury's used 6.50x15 in 1948. My car is an early one, and they switched to 7.10x15 in about March on 1948. Because, Coker never had a mold for the 6.50x15 tire, I went with the 7.10 and it is accepeted as correct.

jal48 is correct on his 15" wheels in 1948. Mercury used a 16" wheel and 600X16 tires in 1939 and 1940, then increased it one size to a 650X16 for 1941. In 1942, they went to the 15" rims with 650X15 tires and continued with them until 1949 when they came out with the new series 710X15 as Howard stated.<BR> The 1949 Ford Custom models began Fords usage of the 15" wheel and 670X 15 tires. However, Fords low end models continued using 16" wheels thru 1952.<P>Rick

Thanks jal48 & Rick. I stand very much corrected and apologize for any confusion I might have caused anyone. This is a renewed lesson to ME and should be for all of us. NEVER TRUST THE MEMORY. LOOK IT UP!! <P>Thanks again, HVS

QUOTE HVS: This is a renewed<BR> lesson to ME and should be for all of us. NEVER TRUST THE<BR> MEMORY. LOOK IT UP!!<BR>UNQUOTE<BR>I can't help but remember buying a 1955 Ford Crown in 1982. I had a 55 Fairlane Town sedan when married in '59, and drove it many miles.....but I couldn't find the dipstick on the Crown in '82. Yep, don't depend on the memory!!

OK Guys, here is the word on the date of introduction of tubless tires. Watching the "History Channel" tonight on Dish Network they stated that B.F. Goodrich introduced tubless tires in 1948. To top it off they showed a whitewall tire, mounted on a '48 Buick, and the tire was EXACTLY like the B.F. Goodrich tire offered by Coker Tires today. My memory was seeing tubless tires advertised on TV around 1953-54, but the actual correct date is 1948. Now all you have to do is get that word to the Judging Committee

Hey Earl ~ Do you believe everything you see on TV? I am an avid watcher of the history channel and can cite numerous instances of incorrect images being used in programs on The History Channel. I will name one - Werner Molders, an early Lwftwaffe Ace, is frequently shown in pictures purported to be of events or battles which took place in 1943 or 1944.<BR>Molders was killed in 1941 in the crash of an HE 111 enroute from the Russian front to Berlin for the funeral of Gen. Ernst Udet.<BR>The History Channel has no hesitation in using good film footage in a program regardless of its historical accuracy and timing. Watch the year of some of the cars in programs about a particular period in history. There are frequently '30's cars in stories about the '20's. Interesting programs, but the film clips often have no relation to the time or event being portrayed. <P>Therefore, I recommend that we NOT base any of our judging policies on information gleaned from The History Channel or TV in general. How about getting B.F. Goodrich to confirm the 1948 date or at least find a printed ad showing tubeless tires in 1948.<P>Someone much wiser than I once said, "Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." I will say, "Don't believe anything you see on TV." Get documentation on this one! ~~ Howard

Welcome back Howard - we missed you. As for believing what you are seeing on TV, back about four years ago I was contacted by a stunt man to see if I had a couple of bikes for a WWI film. I told him that I did not have anything that old but he wanted to see what I did have. The film involved an air raid on a village and they used some very fine WWI replica aircraft, and if you looked close enough, right in the middle of the raid there were two WWI soldiers riding into the village on my 1948 Aberdale and 1947 Whizzer! I told them the age was wrong, but they paid me $1000 for the two to be used for one day.

Oh well, I thought I'd discovered something. I sincerely doubt Goodrich has any files they'd be willing to dig back into. But, it is a possibility, if it really matters that much. My memory is 1953 or 1954, but then I can't believe my memory because I remember seeing the ads on TV!

Hang in there Earl.<P>You are close to the target with this.<BR>B.F.Goodrich did invent the automotive tubeless tire and that was in 1946. They introduced it to the automotive market (here is where you're correct) in 1948, but that was for the 1949 model year. Chrysler (as I always have been told) was the first to use the tubeless tire in 1949. Most of the other automobile manufactures did not begin to use the tubeless tire until the mid 1950's.<P>That was a great show to see.<BR>Rick<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick Hoover (edited 11-03-2000).]

Rick ~ Isn't Coker big with Goodrich? Could they possibly get any data on this subject from them? It would be to everyone's benefit if we had the date from the company that invented the tubeless tire.<BR>~ Howard

Howard,<BR>Yes they are and I'll check to see what he has on record there next week when we talk. I did check out Goodrichs website today under their company history and they put claim to 1946 being the year they 'invented' the tubless tire as I stated. I also looked into Firestones site and learned that they hold claim to being the first with tubeless tires on farm tractors and aircraft. I didn't know that. Some interesting things to learn!<BR>What year or time frame did you have in mind on this issue Howard? <BR>Rick<BR>

Rick ~ I thought it was Al Gore who "invented" the tubeless tire. <P>I guess what I was hoping to establish once and for all was in what year the darn things were first placed on automobiles. If we had that set in stone by the "inventing company" we could put all of this tubeless tire controversy to rest. ~ Howard

Howard,<BR>It would not surprise me if Al claimed he did. He has done so many things for us that we didn't know about, hasn't he?<P>Seriously,<BR>Lets see what I can come up with by making a few calls next week. This has been a issue for sometime now. <BR>Although, I did not hear of any problems regarding this topic at the Hershey meet this year, or was there?<BR>Rick

I heard Al Gore invented the electorial college! Hillary tried to give them health care.