MY 1958 MGA HAS TAKEN A 2ND PLACE AT THE GRAND NATIONALS IN MONTOURSVILLE PA THIS JULY I AM VERY UPSET WITH HOW THE JUDGES PERFORMED THE TASK OF JUGDEING MY CAR IN CLASS 25. LET ME EXPLAIN, MY CAR WAS JUDGED ONCE AND THE JUDGED STICKER WAS PUT ON MY CAR. I ASSUMED THE JUDGEING WAS OVER. NOT TRUE, FOUR SEPERATE TIMES OTHER JUDGES CAME BACK TO MY CAR AND RE JUDGED MY CAR LOOKING FOR ANY THING TO MARK OFF, A AM PROTESTING THIS I FEEL THIS IS TRULY UNFAIR, I FEEL MY CAR IS IS JUST AS PERFECT AS ANY OTHER IN CLASS 25. PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS UNFAIRNESS.<P>THANK YOU RALPH BROWN

I am not a AACA judge but if you read the judging manual it tells you that you need to stay with or have someone be there in case the judges do come back. AS you were there to see that sometimes they do return. Sometimes AACA judges (not the meet judges)will go around looking a cars for a special award that is given out at the annual meeting. I was at the Grand Nationals and did witness various judges doing this around 1:30. You maybe able to get a copy of your score sheet that will not give you the point deductions but will referance the areas that need to be corrected. I did this after my car did not get its senior at Salisbury in 98 and it helped as I did get my senior at Hershey in 98 and my Grand National in Montoursville. AACA judging is not perfect but it is by far the best out there.

Ralph, <P>Don't assume just because judges looked at your car again after the "judged" sticker was placed on your vehicle that it was being "re-judged". Judges do like to walk the judging field after they've completed their duties. <P>Also, the National Awards team does make spot checks of cars, but that has nothing to do with how your vehicle was judged relative to the national meet.<P>It is possible your car judged extremely well... but if it was not within 5 points of the highest pointed car, then your car will be given a 2nd. <P>Of course, I would still strongly suggest you contact the Vice President of Class Judging - David A. Berg. His email address is davbergltd@aol.com. He can certainly tell you generally where your car was marked off, and the details of AACA's judging procedures.<P>By the way... Congrats on your 2nd place in the Grand National! You are in an elite crowd.<P>Peter Gariepy<P>------------------<BR>Peter Gariepy<BR>peterg@aaca.org<BR> <A HREF="http://www.aaca.org" TARGET=_blank>www.aaca.org</A> <p>[This message has been edited by peterg (edited 07-28-2000).]

Ron, Very good comments. SalG<BR>P.S. Did you melt away at Salisbury like I did?

Ralph ~ First get down off your high horse and open your mind. Your assumptions may be completely wrong.<P>At a Grand National Meet your vehicle is judged by a judging team and they determine the award you will receive at that Meet. They place the JUDGED sticker on the vehicle when they complete their work. YOUR CAR HAS BEEN JUDGED and will not be rejudged for its placement at that Meet.<P>As a former National Awards judge I can enlighten you as to what goes on ALL DURING THE DAY'S JUDGING. The National Awards Judges go among the vehicles to determine the cars to be nominated for the Grand National Award to be presented at the Annual Meeting in Philadelphia. This is done by the process of eliminination. It takes evaluation by several teams of National Awards Judges to complete this process. This means a trip through the cars by several groups. This is why you had so many visitations. <P>If these multiple visits bother you, you can always eliminate that problem by putting a card on the windshield saying "DO NOT JUDGE THIS CAR FOR NATIONAL AWARDS" <P>Now before you get on here roundly damming the AACA judges and the judging system, you might consider getting a few facts in advance!<P><p>[This message has been edited by Howard Scotland (edited 07-28-2000).]

I got a Second at Montoursville and I'm so excited I just can't stand it. I've never seen such a collection of cars and mine was part of it!!! I got my First Junior on my first try at Hershey in 97, but failed to get my Senior at Salisbury because the other car in my class was nicer. It deserved to win. I cleaned some things up and got my Senior at Buffalo in 98. I spent some time and money getting ready for the Grand National Show and was just happy to be able to show my car next to some of the other beauties in class 27B. Unfortunately, the car that beat me out at Salisbury was also at Montoursville. It's still nicer. <P>Remember, this is not some whimpy sport like Indianapolis where competitors have throttle plates that keeps them from going too fast. You get to spend whatever time and money you want getting a car ready for these meets. And anyone can compete. Its a great thing.<P>Someone asked me in Montoursville if they should prepare their car for the club shows or the AACA. Was a good question. Club shows are important and a place to see other cars and experts but unfortunately, the club shows might not be as objective in their judging. The only trophies that mean anything to me are from the AACA shows because its the only place I can have my car judged by a group of trained judges working against specific criteria. I sometimes wish I could see the judging sheets, but understand that they don't get paid enough to put up with my grief. I've watched their reactions while judging and can usually tell what they don't like. They are sometimes wrong, more often right, but always human. I've got a year to change some things. See you all in Moline.<BR>Bill Clark

Ralph:<P>I am probably one of those judges you saw looking your car over - but I am not a member of the National Awards team. After grabbing some lunch, my wife (also a judge) and I went walking around to look at the vehicles. We both had our "Judge" shirts on. Although neither one of us judged Class 25, we both like Class 25 and made an effort to look at each car in the class - not judging, but admiring and enjoying. Class 25 is a tough class at any national meet - but especially at the Grand National where you have "the best of the best." I too have received a 2nd place at a Grand National - but I will keep trying and improving until I get that 1st!

Congratulations on your success at the Grand National! I am not an AACA Judge. Actually I've only been in the club 5 years and showed 2 cars in 5 shows. I would like to share a couple of observations with you. First of all those Judges that we observe hovering over our precious cars are Car Nuts just like us who spent some big bucks to attend the show just like us. To heighten the enjoyment we derive from our toys, they have volunteered to take the few hours our cars are on display to work. It seems like they earned the right to view our cars up close and personal after they have finished working. Second Observation: I have seen many cars showing in my class that had some fairly obvious deviations in authenticity. Remember; what is obvious to one observer may be subtle or even insignificant to another observer. The point is: As owners showing our cars it is incumbent upon us to put forth our best effort in preparing our cars for judging. I have noticed three impediments to "Showing Your Best": (1) " I didn't know any better" (2) "I ran out of time" (3) "Pep Boys had the part cheaper than the Marque Specialist. Anyway, wouldn't you really rather have your car judged by a Car Person who really appreciates your effort instead of some celebrity on Rodeo <BR>Drive or Pebble Beach who thinks your car is "CUTE"? Golly! after reading what I wrote here it sounds like I'm "Kissing Up" to the judges in Aptos next month! Persevere; and you'll accomplish your goal. Tom<BR> <BR>

Where did all of these astute observers of the judging scene come from? You guys really have come to know what AACA judging and judges are all about. THANKS!<P>Deering ~ Why don't you try to attend the judging school at 2:00 PM on Friday at Aptos. Someone with your attitude belongs in our judging corps. We all started somewhere and this is a good place for you.<BR>If you decide after trying it that judging is not for you, you can just stop. Easy as that. Howard<P>Also, the DFers will meet on the judging field behind class 5 at 1:30 on Saturday.<BR>Just a social get together to meet each other and put a face on the name. HV

Well (a deep subject)....as Chairman of Judges Training in 1977-78 my thoughts are antique, but I'll add them just the same. AACA judges are a pretty dedicated lot. They spend thousands of their own money to get to these events "just to judge." As former National President Hank Krusen liked to say, "judging is the hobby within the hobby." Often these judges don't bring a car, and just as often when they do, they leave it and go off judging, simply trusting their peers. At Cherry Hill my old 1939 Buick 1982 Grand National First could only get a Preservation. I still felt it was as beautiful as when it was finished in 1981, so I hired a Professional Detail Man to come and spend 12 hours taking care of all the dirt and nicks of 18 years and 10,000 miles and our baby got its Grand National Senior at Montoursville. I guess it's as happy as I've been since 1982. Consider when this car won the Grand National 1st in 1982 there was no point spread and no Grand National Senior. I didn't know there was a Grand National Senior until six years ago. The point is, it's not the judges. 99 44/100% know their stuff and they are completely dedicated to giving you their best effort and your rewards. Often, especially at a Grand National where the necessary points are 10 higher, and the spread 5 points closer, the judges feel honest disappointment to see a fine car just miss for whatever reason. You can only hope that the man who owns it goes back and does something more to the car or is a little luckier with the competition the next time. And finally, look at the bright side. Maybe in fact the National Awards Team was looking at your car. Golly, I wish I thought they'd been looking at mine. That's quite an honor in and of itself, don't you think? For you guys going to Aptos, I'll see you there! <P>------------------<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dynaflash8:<BR><B> Well (a deep subject)....as Chairman of Judges Training in 1977-78 my thoughts are antique, but I'll add them just the same. AACA judges are a pretty dedicated lot. They spend thousands of their own money to get to these events "just to judge." As former National President Hank Krusen liked to say, "judging is the hobby within the hobby." Often these judges don't bring a car, and just as often when they do, they leave it and go off judging, simply trusting their peers. At Cherry Hill my old 1939 Buick 1982 Grand National First could only get a Preservation. I still felt it was as beautiful as when it was finished in 1981, so I hired a Professional Detail Man to come and spend 12 hours taking care of all the dirt and nicks of 18 years and 10,000 miles and our baby got its Grand National Senior at Montoursville. I guess it's as happy as I've been since 1982. Consider when this car won the Grand National 1st in 1982 there was no point spread and no Grand National Senior. I didn't know there was a Grand National Senior until six years ago. The point is, it's not the judges. 99 44/100% know their stuff and they are completely dedicated to giving you their best effort and your rewards. Often, especially at a Grand National where the necessary points are 10 higher, and the spread 5 points closer, the judges feel honest disappointment to see a fine car just miss for whatever reason. You can only hope that the man who owns it goes back and does something more to the car or is a little luckier with the competition the next time. And finally, look at the bright side. Maybe in fact the National Awards Team was looking at your car. Golly, I wish I thought they'd been looking at mine. That's quite an honor in and of itself, don't you think? For you guys going to Aptos, I'll see you there! <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for the info, I respect all the judges and the work that they all do for our hobby, right now I am looking forward to the next Grand Nationals and hopeing to get it right the next time around.<P>Sincerly Ralph Brown<P><BR>

You're a good man, Ralph Brown We all have respect for a man willing to listen and learn. ~ HV

I'll second Howard's comment. Ralph, your post generated a lot of comments, some from members who are not judges. Thanx for returning with your positive post. We judges do our darndest to be accurate and fair.

A Big BOY HOWDY to Ralph Brown.<P>Dan

Appreciate you comments Ralph. Hope next time is your time