Would you or would you not have point deductions for showing a vehicle with tubeless tires and stems, when the car came from the factory with tube type tires and tubes. <P> Examples: 1951/52 Chevrolet Passenger<BR> 1953/54 Buick Skylarks<P>I have seen this go both ways in the past.<BR>Any thoughts or answers anybody? <BR> <BR> RAH<P> <P><BR>

Yes. Tires should be as they were installed at the factory, not necessarily brand, but certainly type and size.

Thanks for your response Ron. I'm using a old situation I ran into, starting back at the Dayton OH. A.G.N.M. years ago and I am still being asked by members getting questioned by judges if or why they do not have innertubes in their tires at this past Hershey 99. One thing I noted was that the ones questioned most, had vehicles with small center hubcaps and exposed stems. Others with full / optional covers were not or rarely asked.<BR> Still, I would like to know if this area of concern is in writing or is at each teams discretion for deduction.<BR> My original question should have been more geared toward the tubes, as the vehicles new replacement tires in all cases are only made as tubless. Ron or anyone?<BR> Thanks, RAH<BR>

Dave Berg, current VP Class Judging, has had a project going to rewrite the tire section of the Official Judging Manual. Don't know the status of this effort.<BR>You nailed on of the critical problems - for some sizes the only available tires that will fit are the ones needed. I know of a few members who have gone so far as to use a tubeless tire with a tube just to get the correct stem showing. Some even go so far as to use a Dremel took to grind the word "tubeless" off of the tire. (I did a similar grinding for one of my bike tires when the only available on in the correct size said "Not for Highway Use". It helps to freeze the tire first to make the rubber hard.)

correction on my previous reply - Should have read, "You nailed ONE of the critical problems. For some sizes the only available tires that will fit are NOT the ones needed."

Ok, tires for the older cars. We're working on a 1918 Model T, hoping to be a "Hershey car".<BR>What are the preferable tires for this car?<BR>White, if they are correct(were they originally _white_ or ?) are just becoming available again. Smoothies are questionable for a car that will be eventually used to tour with. Or are we safe with black treaded Firestones (not Non-Skids)on all 4.<BR>We, of course, be using metal stem tubes etc.<BR>We're close to buying tires so we need to know the latest feeling.<BR>Thanx,<BR>Jim<BR>

Jim, White smothies are not appropriate for 1918. The black tires you describe are very good and there would be no point deductions if mounted as you describe. My reference says for '18 tires are 30X3 front and 30X3 1/2 rear. Just to clear up a point, getting a car "Hershey ready" is not different from any AACA National Meet - same criteria, same point system, and same judges. Hershey is no different.

Jim Dix,<BR> <BR> Your choice of tires may be limited as to how soon you are planning to buy. As of now,<BR>the Firestone 30X3 and 30X3 1/2 Blacks are not available. Production is under way and will be available after Feb/Mar 2000. The Universal T-Driver of same size will be available as of this coming Monday 12/13 but limited quanities exist due to back orders.<BR> As to whats prefered, you will receive NO deductions for using either of the tires mentioned above including the Coker brand sizes when they too become available. <BR> Smoothies were to have stopped being used on rear axles in early 1916. Front tires remained smooth for a short time after.<BR>This is a grey area as to what was.<BR> If you are going to show at AACA Nationals and tour later, I would recommend the Universal T-Driver (Black) in both sizes, or wait for the Firestone in the spring. If you choose the Firestone, be sure to call Coker or Universal Tire and get on the waiting list.<BR> Good luck with your restoration and hope you can make the spring meet in Winchester.<P> Rick<BR>

My expreence with Firestone "Non Skid" tires is that they look great for shows but when you drive much they ware very fast and are noisey. I had a set of Firestone streight line treads that wore like iron, I wish they still made them.<P>DBinger

The AACA still has trouble matching reality with originality. And is super-slow at resonding to errors in judging & manuals. I have a '69 Porsche -- GN 1st 1997 -- that came from the factory with Michelin 185/70VR15 XWX tires. They were tube type. I know -- I bought it new! That was reported as Michelins first production "low-profile" tire, and first VR speed rated tire (175mph). It was prduced specifically for that model of Porsche and a Ferrari. AACA judging manuals state there were no low-profile metric radials before 1972, yet I have proven it with both advertisements, and parts/shop manuals. I even have photographs of the car new. They have not updated the judges manual, despite my submitting it in writing with copies of the necessary documentation.<P>Although not an issue to the best of my knowledge, Michelin did make that exact tire for many more years, but in tubeless format. Coker now carries that reproduction tire. "Tubeless" is embossed into the tire data fields. In Porsche's case, the rims were not modified for tubeless until later years so I still put tubes in the tubeless tire. Most tubeless rims do have an inner stabilizing bead, so using tubeless tires without tubes on a rim without that profile may be dangerous, especially in later cars with modern speed capability. But as long as the stems and caps are identical in appearance, any judge that points off for either stems or the 'tubeless' imprint in a reproduction tire needs a reality check.

Capt. Mike - Your accusations regarding the AACA Official Judging Manual are unreasonable. The info regarding tire sizes are general for the wide variety of cars, most notably for US manufacturers. The 1972 date for OEM use of letter size radial tires and 1975 OEM use of low profile metice radial tires is valid. Certainly there are exceptions, especially for foreign makes. Radials were first made by Michelin in 1948, but that does not mean that we should accept radials for all cars made after '48. Michelin and other tire manufacturers produced all types of tires years before they were actually used on all production vehicles. The critical date is OEM use, not necessarily the original production date for that type of tire. If the judging manual listed all possible exceptions, on a car by car basis, to the general "rules", and this applies to all chassis, interior, exterior and engine components, not just tires, it would be several hundred pages. It clearly states that if the owner can document the exception, then it is acceptable. You appear to understand this approach since you stated that you documented the tires on your Porsche and you did get your Grand National award. Thus, it appears to me that the problem is really a non-problem.<P>If later model cars were produced with OEM rims that would use only tubeless tires, then obviously tubeless tires would be applicable and your comments re safety are applicable. And if the tires (or any other component) appear as original, then certainly there would be no point deduction.