michel88 Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I was watching an episode of "My Classic Car" and it featured a car show of mostly Hot Rods and custom cars. I was disturbed to see a true Classic Packard Darrin that had been modified. The guy had installed a Viper V10 engine. He also removed the interior and put in one from I believe a modern Jaguar. He had modified the body also and of course had installed huge diameter and ugly custom wheels. Why would anyone do this to a true Classic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 It's happening more and more, as each deep-pocketed hot rodder tries to out-do the next. Are you certain that this particular car was a "real" Darrin? I've not yet seen such a valuable car being turned into a hot rod. Most "Classics" that have been modified, are usually either garden variety cars, or ones that don't have near the value of the Darrin. I can't remember the last time I saw a Darrin in less than class 3 condition, so it's hard to believe that one could be bought for less than $100,000. Is there any hot-rodder out there that has purchased his "project" car for that kind of money?I saw a car at Barrett-Jackson a few years ago, which may be the car in which you discuss. It was a new car made to look like a modified Darrin... even had some sort of name that was related to Darriin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 In the 80s there were a number of darrin cowl, doors, fenders reproduced. I'm sure if you saw a hot-rodded "darrin" it was one of these reproduction bodies. Also, it could have been a standard packard conv that had been cut down to look like a darrin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 get used to it--you are going to see more of it. It's not going to be a fully restored Dietrich 12 convertible sedan (not for a while, anyway), but the guys who love and collect these cars aren't getting any younger, their kids, with damn few exceptions want nothing to do with the cars and it's a matter of time before a lot of pre-war antiques and classics hit the market all at once. Ain't a whole lotta young people coming into the VMCCA,CCCA--our hosts the AACA have by far the most aggressive campaign to gain youth membership, that will help. Meanwhile on the other side, rodding s growing and has somewhat of a youth/low middle age contingent and they have climbed every mountain there is to climb with Ford bodies, and they are looking to stand apart from the others at Autorama. Add B-J into the mix, where anything old with a chromed-up small block Chebby, Mustang II front end, GM tilt steering column and bumpers painted body color gets big $$$$ and you have the perfect storm for a desecration nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel88 Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 When host Dennis Gage started interviewing the owner he said something to the effect that it was a Packard Darrin and you don't see these every day. He then said to the owner I see you have restored it "your way." The owner kind of chuckled and said yes I did. I sincerely hope this car is not a real Packard Darrin, but I got the impression that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I agree that it is hard to believe someone could afford to take a Darrin and devalue it like that. If the guy was foolish enough to destroy a real Darrin he probably wasn't smart enough to know that he really had a reproduction to begin with <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 The guy who did it lives about an half mle from me. He claims it's a real Darrin. The Viper engine came from Kelsey Grammers wrecked Viper. He said that the Darrin was pretty well shot. I would estimate that he has had the car finished 7 years ago. He's a nice guy. At one car cruise in he got out of the convertible class and moved into the 40s class so I would have a chance to win...this is without me asking. He's won a lot of best of shows with the car.He's done the same wth a Classic Lincoln and is doing the same to 30s Mercedes Roadster. He bought a Dodge truck with a just to get the engine to put into the Mercedes.I did hear from someone else who thought it was a replica Darrin but I have no way of knowing. I may have a picture I can post later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Here's a picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 It would be interesting to know what number Darrin it is/was assuming it is real. I still find it very hard to believe it was real. Not to long ago the reproductions were not going for much money, plus there were a few unfinished ones floating around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Appears in the pic as very tastefuly done. It's not like he chopped it. As for the V10 viper engine and the Jag interior those would definatly NOT be my choice for transplant but certainly easily enuf corrected. Based on the pic he gets at least one thumb up from me but those awful auxilary lites need to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Appears in the pic as very tastefuly done. It's not like he chopped it. As for the V10 viper engine and the Jag interior those would definatly NOT be my choice for transplant but certainly easily enuf corrected. Based on the pic he gets at least one thumb up from me but those awful auxilary lites need to go away. </div></div>The firewall I know had to be moved back to fit the Viper engine. I don't know if he kept the original firewall. Next I see it, I'll see if there's a data plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 I don't suppose you'd want to tell him just how much nicer it'd look without those Trippe Lights, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard8 Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Sorta like having Andy Warhol ?freshen up? the Mona Lisa? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't suppose you'd want to tell him just how much nicer it'd look without those Trippe Lights, eh? </div></div>I'll pass the word on to him from you. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Post some more photos of it if you can. I'd like to see a side and rear view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JT Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Here's another but with fog <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z1021...in/default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Post some more photos of it if you can. I'd like to see a side and rear view. </div></div>OK, I found a better picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't suppose you'd want to tell him just how much nicer it'd look without those Trippe Lights, eh? </div></div>I'll pass the word on to him from you. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>Don't bother. After seeing your second picture, it's going to take more than just removing the Trippe Lights to help it, including those wheels and the chromed headlights. Oh, and the headrests, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphicar BUYER Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I agree, West! Looks like a teenager did this car on a budget and free reign of the local salvage yard. It just not have the correct proportions (too much chrome and lights, too big and ugly wheels). Poor taste knows no bounds. If it is a real Darrin, it deserves to be correctly restored. If it was "too far gone" for restoration, how could it get rodded? This could be true for a shoebox Chevy, but not a high end collectable car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard enthus. Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 wanna bet ? ( referring to Mr. Push's comment that we havnt YET sunk so low as to hot rod a Packard V-12..) About a year ago, when browsing thru the auto section of a local magazine stand, I was horrorfied to see on the cover, a butchered (oh..all right..."hot rodded" ) mid 30's Packard V-12 convertible sedan. I do not recall that the article was clear as to what shape the car was in before it was butchered (sorry..folks...I mean.."hot rodded"). Looked like pretty nice workmanship - was, of course, a modern car, upon which was mounted what was left of SOME of the sheet metal from a REAL Packard V-12.Elsewhere I noted a bitter-sweet irony - as more and more of us older car buffs are dying off, the value of the "REAL" classics continues to flatten out or decline. Maybe someday we will be back to the way it was when I was a kid, and paid twenty five bucks for my Packard V-12 (my parents had a fit..that I'd bother with such a ugly old gas gobbler...for another ten bucks I could have gotten a nice Model A Ford...!).Maybe as the values of the "real" classics decline further, while we will see the tragedy of some of them getting butchered, we will also see some of them falling back into the hands of folks like myself, who just like them for the engineering masterpieces they were, and couldnt give a damn what they are worth.I have no solution for any of this - hopefully, the next guy who gets my own Packard V-12 (yes..I still have the same one I used to go to high school in, in the early 1950's) will be impressed enough with it the way it is, to just enjoy it and not screw it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Good point, John,I don't think there is such a thing as a Darrin that is too far gone to restore. Even if there was nothing more than piece of the cowl, a "real" Darrin would probably get restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 6686L--it's a simple supply vs. demand story problem. I mentioned this theory while in the chow line at a CCCA event and got some pretty dirty looks, a woman countered with "the classics will never be rodded, they are at the top of their popularity and the club has never had a larger membership" I mentioned that the membership may be at its peak, but that the average age is high and not getting any younger. I asked where their kids were; they sort of looked at the ground and muttered "they aren't into old cars". I was the kid in that line and I was 43 at the time. There is a new name amoungst rodders for these B______izations,I think they call them "king size rods"check outhttp://rides.webshots.com/photo/2166910980077698672JkjRbM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 So far, all of the "Classic" rods that I've seen, with maybe one or two exceptions, have been pretty low-end cars. About the most valuable and rarest Classic I've seen butchered was a 1935 Buick 90 series convertible sedan that I think was one of three that existed. The other was a Packard 900 series roadster... but that one was brought up from a pile of rusted parts and doesn't constitute the term "butchered".In my opinion, taking a standard-eight Packard sedan (such as in your link) is not out-doing anyone. A deuce-coupe Ford attracts my attention faster than this top-heavy-looking Packard rod. I could be wrong, but I would guess the rodded Ford is probably much more valuable and easier to sell. It's still sad to see a car like this, though, as it was much prettier looking in stock form than with those tiny wheels and tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Photo below, still my favorite, a Nash!Reggie Nash of Richmond Va had a lead, or should I say, an offer to buy this car some time ago. Still a little out of my price range.Anybody would be a complete fool to rod this car!! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Elsewhere I noted a bitter-sweet irony - as more and more of us older car buffs are dying off, the value of the "REAL" classics continues to flatten out or decline. Maybe someday we will be back to the way it was when I was a kid, and paid twenty five bucks for my Packard V-12 (my parents had a fit..that I'd bother with such a ugly old gas gobbler...for another ten bucks I could have gotten a nice Model A Ford...!).Maybe as the values of the "real" classics decline further, while we will see the tragedy of some of them getting butchered, we will also see some of them falling back into the hands of folks like myself, who just like them for the engineering masterpieces they were, and couldnt give a damn what they are worth. </div></div>I happened to talk to a classic car dealer at the recent PI meet. He said that the classic Packard open cars (at least 32-34s) have really risen in price in the past year about 50%. So I was surprised, but please as I do own an open 32. He's pretty knowledgeable as he's been involved in soem of these recent sales (non auction). So that goes against the thought that classics are declining in price. I had thought they were staying steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 tbird man--they are not declining in price, because the demand is still greater than the supply. 15 years from now the numbers will all be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_PackardV8 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 based on my experience over the last 30-35 years i've found that everything from large NOS parts stashes all the way up to well restored vehicles usually are not appreciated by those that inherit them. They are either sold, usually well below market or are left to waste away outside or in garages where years of lawn mowers and bicycles are scraped by them or junk piled on them while the inheritors try to squeeze top dollar.. Some are donated to museums and i don't think i have to explain to anyone what mistake that is from the stand point of maintaning the car. It's tantamount to the latent truth in: "He made it the old fashion way". THAT IS TO SAY: Inheritance. That will be greatest downfall of many a fine classic as well as special interest cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 V8--Amen, brother, amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard enthus. Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I missed the big National Packard meet in Orange, Calif, this year, so I dont know what showed up. At the last one, we had at our meet two early thirties Packard sedans that had been "rodded". One, in all fairness, was built up from bits and pieces of sheet metal from disasters that would never have been restored. The other had been a fairly complete car. My recollection is they were both around 1933 or '34 Eight or Super Eight sedans. I have to admit the workmanship was superb. No question what with their air conditioning, modern radios, and modern running gear, they'd be safer and more pleasant to drive for "daily beaters" then even a perfect "just as it came out of the factory" car of that era.West is right - most hot-rodders / car buff types just plain like the low end cars. And this isnt a new phenomena. I noted elsewhere that when I bought my '38 Packard V-12 sedan (back in the early 1950's) for twenty five bucks, my parents had a fit; couldnt understand why I'd want an "ugly gas gobbler like that" when for another twenty five bucks I could have gotten something "reasonable" like a Model "A" or Chevrolet from the same era.I am not surprised to read in here that people IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING OLD CARS continue to "hype" the value. But the proof is in the auction and sales results. The hot rods are going up. The "best of the best" perfect restorations of big open cars seems to be at least stablized. I have seen conflicting examples as to whether they are still going up.But the big elegant "super classics" such as my Packard V-12, if in a four door closed sedan body, just dont seem to sell. I rather doubt if I could get much more for mine, than what you'd pay for a good used Toyota ! The various old car sales publications are full, month after month, of the same big classic closed cars that go unsold.I think we are all in agreement here, that we WISH people would act as "curators" for the cars in their custody, preserving them as historical artifacts (and, hopefully, enjoying them and driving the hell out of them like I do..!)I just dont see any answers to the dilema of losing cars of historical interest to the hot rodders. Wish I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Mack_CT Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 6686 - let me know if you ever want to part with your car for the price of a used toyota! Love the fact that, from your postings you have held and enjoyed your car for many years. Unfortunately I agree some Classics may be lost to rodders, a fact those of us who own lesser cars are already dealing with. With Model As right now we are seeing more cars coming up for sale where you can get everything but the body, never mind that there are several choices out there for repro bodies for these guys. I understand the cache of a period correct car, but still hate to see good drivers/restorations ruined like this just for an "authentic" body. So parts are coming down right now, but complete cars going up. This is a mixed blessing as I have seen some folks able to restore their cars correctly using rodder's discarded stuff - but bad overall. These cars peaked several years ago but seem to be coming back. So what does that mean for Classics? While I agree that the typical owners of Classics now are aging, I hope some segment of the yourger set makes that move from casual enthusiast (maybe one 60s car, car of your youth, etc.) to collector, appreciating other eras. I would still like to add a Classic (Packard, but a non-Classic will do - I am watching a friend's 40 120) to my small collection, and maybe even a brass car at some point. I am not the only guy in his 40s who appreciates these cars, but again, my hope is that some of my peers look beyond the 60s (nothing against those, got one, but it is enough..) at the great older cars out there. Just my 2 cents.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirdman Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Steve Mack,I consider myself one of the contrarians going for a classic Packard while all the guys my age want muscle cars. I do like muscle cars, but they are a dime a dozen. My 60s car is a 64 Thunderbird convertible which is unusual especially in the good condition I have it in, but my 32 Packard roadster draws much more attention wherever I go. Also a 36 Packard sedan is a constant best of show winner at the local cruises around here. It is mostly stock except for a root beer metal flake paint job. So here you have a 4 door mostly stock Packard beating out all of the 60s cars and the hot rodders. I also feel that the 60s cars market is over hyped with a lot of people paying exorbitant prices for ordinary cars whwere there is no real shortage of these cars. One of the announcers at the BJ auction made a funny statement last year, "I never knew there were so many rare Corvettes <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />" as the 100th one rolled over the stage. I predict a falling of the market, but who knows. But remember the Ferrari market of the 90s.I would like to add a brass car to my collection but I'm limited by garage space. Also I find it hard to maintain more than a couple cars at a time and give them the attention they need.Then you can start a whole another thread on plastic hot rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I find it hard to maintain more than a couple cars at a time and give them the attention they need. </div></div>Boy, ain't that the truth! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />I think the fact that the 1936 Packard winning top awards at a lot of "cruise-ins" may be a sign that the 1930s cars are what many people aspire to own if given the chance and/or funds to make a purchase. If we can continue to get the word out that these cars can be bought for less than a "tribute/fakey-do" muscle car, and are generally easier to work on, perhaps enthusiasm for them will continue to rise. I, myself, would love to have another 1969 Dodge Charger, but only if my Packard needs are met first! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I guess I have a little bit different perspective on the "the younger generation aren't interested in these old/restored cars" assumption. As some of you know, I've been restoring professionally since 1979. While we don't specialize in any one make, like most restoration shops we have a constant flow of Packards, Cadillacs, and Buicks thru here. I don't think the average age of our customers has gone up at all, if anything it has decreased. Currently in the shop we have a 1933 Cadillac 12 Fleetwood limo, 2 1932 Packard 900 Convertibles, a 1937 Packard Super 8 Sedan, a 1953 Packard Henney Ambulance, a '55 Buick Special Conv. among others. All of these cars are complete, to original restorations and all are owned by folks in their 30's, 40's and 50's. Most of the enquiries we field about restoration work are from the "younger" generation. Let's face it, restoration is expensive, and most people almost have to be in their 40's, at least, before they can afford this hobby. All the shops that I talk to who do good work and are reasonable in what they charge have all the work they can handle. I have noticed that more and more folks' first exposure to the old car hobby is thru streetrod channels. Not surprising considering the many rod and custom shows now popular on TV. I find that many of these folks go on to develop an interest in "original" vehicles. The old line between streetrodder and restorer is becoming blurred. It's ok to own and appreciate both restored and rodded cars these days. While I deplore the destruction of original cars, you have to admit one thing; The current streetrod craze has sure gotten a lot of people looking at old cars. It's when the interest in old cars, restored or streedrodded, begins to fall off that you need to really begin to worry about the old car hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 The conventional wisdom is that people tend to like the "cool" cars from when they were young. Over time I've decided that isn't really true. Classics right now are as hot as ever and very few people are alive to remember them new. The car market ebbs and flows like other markets and premium cars will also have a strong following. Perhaps they will always be owned by the 50 to 80 year old set but that was true 30 years ago too. You need to accumulate a certain about of wealth to afford them and there aren't that many 25 year-olds that can. I do not believe you will ever see Duesenbergs or open top-of-the line Packards being given away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard enthus. Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 I disagree. Again - look at the auction results and the ads in HEMMINGS & OLD CARS WEEKLY. Yes, the open cars seem to move - but month after month you see the same closed cars, even really sharp condition "real" classics such as cars similar to my Packard V-12, and a couple of Cadillac V-16's, re-advertised over and over again.We all saw the late '30's hot rod / custom Lincoln Zephyr go for MUCH MUCH more than a sharp bone-stock original. Again, I have no answers, and I am not even sure any more what the questions are ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Gariepy Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Why do hotrodders modify a car? Simple, thats how they like their cars. They do it......for the challenge of the construction ...for the money...to impress...to show off...to drive it...etc. etc. etc.So why do we restore our cars to original?...for the challenge of the construction ...for the money...to impress...to show off...to drive it...etc. etc. etc.Notice any similarities? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />As restorers add one more... ...to retain a bit of history.A noble endeaver for sure, but not neccessarily our primary motive. If it was we'd never drive them and we'd donate them to a museum.Instead of a WE against THEM mentality why not just enjoy our hobby as we choose, and let them enjoy it as they choose. Is it a shame that a few rare cars get modified occationally - absolutely. Just keep in mind it's a free country, and they have a right to do with their cars as they choose. Hot rodding a car is not against the law.... and there are bigger problems in this world than someone choosing to modify an antique car.Like you I love and prefer to look at restored cars... but let me let you in on a little secret, I look at hot rods, and customs, and low riders, and custom motorcycles - and I enjoy them all. I'll bet most of you do too - you just wont admit it.Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Gariepy Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 The same applies to these arguments...Drive it vs Trailer itShow it vs Tour itHome built vs Professionally builtFord vs ChevyAs Rodney King so elequently said..."Why can't we all just get along?" <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard enthus. Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 you are W R ONG - W R O N G - W R O N G ! I DO admit it ! Well said - great posts ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 I hope Duesenbergs get cheap, I always wanted one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packard enthus. Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 "cheap" Duesenberg ? Naw - never happen. Actually, never did happen. In fact...the legend of "cheap" Duesenbergs is just that..nonsence - just a legend. I know, "I was there". In '55, a pretty nice (what today, would be about a 95 point car) Duesenberg phaeton was on the market for months in So. Calif, with no takers. Why - price was too high. I mean...FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS. You guys have ANY idea how much FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS was to the average car buff, who considered himself in paradise if he even SAW a fifty dollar bill..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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