Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I am doing an authentication study on 2 Pierce Arrows, both of them are here at McPherson College, in the auto restoration building. One of them has no chassis tag or body tags of any kind, and no previous history is truly known. There is a registration from 1972 that I am trying to prove/disprove, but beyond that, we know that one car is an early 1930 C chassis (no kick shackle, therefore early 30), and the other may or may not be a B chassis from 1930 or 31. We are trying to find a source of information regarding the brakes on both cars- the 1930 C has rod and lever actuated brakes, and the unknown car has cable operated brakes and the left front kick shackle. Does anyone know anything about when the cable operated brakes would have appeared, and on what chassis (serial #s)???-Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Ron, I own a 1930 Model C 5 pass sdn. with the lowest 1930 Vin numbers listed in the PAS roster. It does have the rod type brakes that you say you have found on your chassis. My car had to be a January 1930 car. (#10000154) Make a list of any photo you need and I would be glad to e-mail them to you. This car has the 3 shoe per drum style brake system. I am told they went to a 2 shoe in mid 1930. I also have 1929 and 30 parts books that cover A B and C models. I do not know the ser. number for the change to cable brakes. The 1931 and up parts books do not have any pictures or drawings, making it difficult to get easy answers. The AACA Library may have the later parts books. They would give the "cable" part numbers, even though no pictures. Let me know if I can help. Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 17, 2006 Share Posted October 17, 2006 Karl: Thank you for your generous offer! Right now, we would be looking for a picture of the left front leaf spring shackle and casting, so that we can compare it to the sedan that we have. Also, if you measure your wheel base, what does it come out to? Our roadster must have the 3 shoe style as well, and one could deduce that the change to cable operation came with the two-shoe change... -Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Rich, here is a shot of the left front shakle mount. All Model C's were on a 132 inch wheel base. As for the brakes: The change from 3 to 2 shoes was a mid-year change that continued to use the rods and levers. The cable brakes are on all 1934 Pierces. But I do not know when they started 31-33?. It was not in 1930. My parts book shows 2 shoe brakes start at chassis number 1003118 C's, and B&A at # 2025437,2502034,and 3025741. The wheel base's would be different also on the A & B. If you need more photos let me know. I have made copies of the 1929 and 1930 Parts books. both have nice line drawings of all chassis parts. Let me know if you would be interested in one. Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Rich, shot of 3 shoe backing plate, Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Rich, shot of lower 3 shoe LF backing plate. Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Parts book 3 shoe brakes, Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Karl: The school is supposed to have ordered a Parts manual, so we are waiting for it to come in. So, just to be clear, the 1930 parts book does NOT show the cable setup? This is very interesting... Thank you for all the info so far!-Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Rich, no cables for 1930. I contacted a friend with a 1931 limo, he thinks his has cables... He will get back to me and I will post that info. Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 21, 2006 Share Posted October 21, 2006 Karl: Thanks for the valuable info. I look forward to finding out about the limo- this sedan could be a 1931 after all...BTW: Is there anything that would distinguish a model B's front (and possibly the rear) fenders from a model C? Or are they exactly the same length?-Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 1930 used 3 shoe brake and 5 lug wheel. There are several diffrent setups on the 1930 cars. 1931 had 2 shoe and six lug wheels. Remember there was the 1930 model, the leftover 1930's sold as 1931's, then the true "1931" model. 1930 chassis had a gremmer steering box, 1931 had ross. 1931's steer, stop, and ride much smoother than 1930. 1930 also had free wheeling lever on the dash, 31 had it on the shifter. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Thank you all for your input!Well, here's the final results, then:Car 1: 1930 C chassis, B body (roadster), with an A engine, rod+lever brakes, Gemmer steering box, and 5-lug wheels. Quite a mutt- the body doesn't fit well on the frame as the rear splash pan bolt holes do not line up with the fender holes at all.Car 2: 1931 restored chassis (unknown type), sedan body (in very bad shape, but rebuildable), with C engine, cable brakes, Gemmer steering box (must be early '31?), and 6 lug wheels. This car is the one I had questions about, as the title shows it to be a '29 model B, but the serial number on the title indicates 1930 model C. I knew something was amiss about this car when we discovered that the body tag and chassis tags were not present, and the previous owner/restorer is long gone. Is there any way to tell a model B from a model C just by looking at or measuring the frame? The wheelbase on this car is exactly 134", which we know indicates model B, but we would like to make sure that the previous owner that restored the chassis didn't modify the wheelbase to make this car something that it is not.Again, thank you for your input. This has made an otherwise nearly impossible task a bit easier. Let me know if any of you have insight into the frame question.-Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRK Sr. Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Rich, Early 1930 C's would have a 3 speed transmission, lovered hood, not doors, and 29 style hubcaps that screw on the hub,(the left over 1929's) like my car. The later 1930 C's have the 4 speed trans and the larger pound on hub cap that both the A & B have for 30, along with my late 1929 Model 143 inch Limo. Hope I have not confused you, but mid year and left over part changes make this part of Pierce a challenge. The 1931 Chassis would be a Model 43, not a letter. They were made on 134 inch and 137 inch wheelbases. The other two chassis used for 1931 were Model 42, a 142inch , and Model 41, a 147 inch wheelbase. You would have to get the width of bore to figure engine horsepower, and displacement if the ser. numbers are not readable. Model C: 3 3/8 inches, 43: 3 1/2 inches. How about a few photos?? Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 To Rich:I noted your 1930 Pierce chassis has a roadster body. Attached is a photo of a 1929 Pierce Roadster taken a year ago at a car meet in Illinois. Just in case the photo has any value in evaluating the body you have. I have a photo of the front also if desired, just ask.Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nutsnbolts Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 I will post the pics of these 2 cars this weekend.Here's what the school is mulling over:Since there is no way to make the roadster technically correct with what they have, they are thinking of a swap. It would work like this...They are looking for a 1930 B chassis or frame, with a 134 inch wheelbase, with or without an engine, trans and the like, that would be correct for the roadster. In exchange, they would give the donor the current roadster chassis, #1003500. Obviously, the swap would be part for part, so if there is no engine, then no engine would be exchanged. Also, the chassis donated must be tagged and verifyable as a 1930 B. The roadster currently has front fenders and splash aprons from a different vehicle, all in relatively good condition, so if there are any differences between those and a correct model B, then they would trade those as well. If there is anyone out there interested in a swap like this, have them get back to me, and I'll try to set something up with the school through my instructor. I'll also post this in the FS/Wanted section...-Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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