WCraigH Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(snip) How about Craig, can Ross make pistons for Packin31's older vehicle? </div></div>Probably, but bring your wallet. The prices went way up in the last few years. KevinAZ & I decided to get pistons for his 352+0.125=374 from Egge after Kev talked to their tech people. After arrival and inspection, they look really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 14, 2006 Author Share Posted March 14, 2006 Len, <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rick, glad to hear you are making progress on your engine. I am wondering why you took the studs out of the crankcase</div></div> Not sure if you where asking Rick or me this question. One of the studs came out with the acron nut so I figured I pull the rest of them for ease of cleaning the gasket off the crank case.I talked to Ross yesterday and they told me they are not making Pistons for the Packard anymore.Arias wants $130-$150 per piston. You have to send them an original piston for pin dimensions etc.Sounds like Egge Pistons/Rings are the way to go. They also have the valve guides has anyone purchase valve guides from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted March 14, 2006 Share Posted March 14, 2006 We're rebuilt at least half a dozen Packard engines using Egge Pistons, valves, valve guides, etc and have had no problems, all are still running, but you should always check dimensions before using any repro parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 I heard back from the machine shop today. The taper on the bore 1/16". So the plan of attach is the shop will clean up block, pull studs, magna fluxed, then bore to see how much over he can go.He asked me what steps the pistons come in from Egge so he knows what to bore it to. Okay I understand that but then he goes onto that maybe I should call Ross, Arias etc. because Egge may build the piston to old specs? What does he mean?He said he will need all the valves and guides to grind the seats. He also mention I need to watch what I order? What does he mean? I was plan on ordering all the parts from Egge.I asked him about rebabbting and he said he does it in house but he said he will need the crank or measurements from crank because they can be tapered. I can do that I just need to go out and by a micrometer or am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Evidently Egge makes everything different than originals, so I wouldn't take anything for granted. If you can find original design parts somewhere else at a desent price, that would probably be the best way to go. But we don't have many options for sources of the parts we need. I guess he's heard about Egge valves already. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> He will need the crankshaft, to check for proper fit, when doing the babbits. Just taking measurements won't be sufficent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 16, 2006 Author Share Posted March 16, 2006 True about parts.Guess that means I need to drop crank. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> How heavy is the crank?Is there a special tool to get the damper off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 On the '29s, The standard-8 dampner is just held on by 4 bolts (with belt pulley on back side), but I recently found out that the super-8 dampner (with pulley on front side) requires a puller (2 bolt type), after removing the crank-bolt (which will also require a special tool). I'm hopeing I won't have to pull it on the Super-8. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I saw a special crank-bolt tool for sale somewhere but they wanted too much for it. There may also have been another design used on the standard-8s in '29, since there were 2 water-pump designs used in '29, (the front mount and the side mount). Both my '29 standard-8 engines have the sidemount water pumps. I'm not sure about the '31 standard-8, since they evidently had many Dampner designs? You should be able to find a puller tool easy (if needed) but the crank-bolt removal may require modifying a wrench socket. I made one for turning the crank clockwise with a ratchet but it won't work for loosening the bolt, yet. The slots in socket have to angle in the opposite direction. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully your's is the 4 bolts only type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest imported_Speedster Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Are you sure your bearings are Bad? I would do some checking by removing a couple of the rods and maybe a crank cap or two and take some measurements. They may not need to be replaced. If they do, then it may be better to take the complete engine to machine shop, cause it's really best to pull the engine when getting crankcase work done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Len Sholes Posted March 16, 2006 Share Posted March 16, 2006 Tom thanks for the update on your engine. I don't want to spoil your day but here is how I see your situation. Standard bore is 3.1875 inches, 1/16" taper or 0.0625 inches plus the original bore size = 3.250 inches. In order to bore this just to get the bores true your machine shop is going to have to bore the cylinders out .080 inches oversize to give you a bore size of 3.2675 inches. It looks like Egge does offer .080 oversize pistons. Now one item you do not mention and that is if your cylinders are still standard size. All you say is that the machine shop has advised you they have the 1/16 inch taper. Before you start to order pistons you need to find out what is the actual bore size. If for example they have already been bored out and now you have the 1/16 inch taper you will have no choice but to have the block bored and sleeved in order to get pistons that will fit. My expierence has been dealing with automotive machine shops is that they will not bore until they have the pistons in their hands as they fit each piston to a respective bore. As for the comment about keeping the valves in order what I have is a piece of board with holes drilled in it for the number of valves in the engine and when I remove them you start with #1 and keep them in order of which cylinder they belong to. If you are going to be installing new valves and guides then you don't need to worry about doing this.With regards to measuring the con rod journals on the crank you can do it in frame but as I have mentioned to you I took measurents at 90 degrees to each and recorded them. To be sure the next day I rechecked these dimensions again and also rechecked my mic to make sure it was on 0 before I started. These dimensions where supplied to the machine shop that did the babbit job which was 3000 miles away. I will say I kept my fingers crossed when I started to install the rods as if my mike was any different than the machine shops I would have been in trouble. But all worked out with each rod having the correct clearance. I take it you do not have a mike and if this is the case you probably haven't used one very often, this been the case I do not reccomend that this is a measuring job to start out on. Do you know of someone who may have one and can measure up the crank for you? If you decide to take the crank out you need to pull the crackcase from the vehicle. This not only is the only way to do it but it will give you an oppourtunity to inspect the main bearings and remove the camshaft so you can have it checked out to make sure the lobes are in good condition. As for the vibration damper removal I have to agree with what Rick states and that is apparantly Packard used different types on their engines in those days. As he mentions you are going to have to fabricate a tool in order to remove the bolt on the end of the crank. On the engine that I did once I had the bolt out all I needed was a strong back and a couple of bolts to remove it. Isn't it fun working on these old vehicles, you start out tackling what you think is a small project and it never fails they end up been a major overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 17, 2006 Author Share Posted March 17, 2006 I am not sure is this engine has ever been bored. I was not going to order piston until the shop got back to let me now what was going to happen with the bores.I bought new valves from Egge a few years back. Only have 250-500 miles on them. Guides I did not replace.Wow gents you are all right. A small job has turned into a large one. Looks like body work will be way way down the road now <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.Guess I will need to find an Engine hoist if I am going to pull crank case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Tom: I have been away for about two weeks...BUT...It looks like I have gotten you into a much bigger job than we both origionally had thought you would have!!!The fact that you found half of your pistons cracked might be a "Good Thing" to quote old Martha Stewart !!! (No...I am NOT one of her fans!!!)I have a friend here in PA who just had a piston break-up in a very rare 1913 Rolls~Royce Silver Ghost engine while on tour... The Rod & wrist-pin has punched a softball size hole though the side of the crankcase ...whipped around and damaged one of the cylinder blocks beyond repair!!! The main bearing webs on the crankcase are also shot!!!This very rare engine is now beyond any practical repair and is now just scrap!!! Very very sad story indeed!!!I hate to say this ...BUT...This might have happened to your Packard engine had you not found the thermal stress cracks running from the thermal expansion slots in your old pistons!!! I am sorry that you now have such a large and costly job on your hands...BUT...it is better to have found the cracks now...rather than later when your engine explodes internally without warning on the road!!! This would have been a much more tragic event!!!I would have the bearings re-babbited; possibly after having the crankshaft re-ground undersize to clean-up any out of round & taper on it !!!Old babbitt can, over the years, pit and break-down... Acids in the older oils along with acids formed by byproducts of combustion slipping past old leaky piston rings can really attack old bearing material...also... from years of running and pounding these materials can get work hardened and the material grain structure can change causing the bearings to get hard and very brittle and slowly break-up!!!If you plan to use this car at, or near, modern highway speeds... I would replace all bearings, or at least the rod bearings!!!We are ALL caught-up in your Packard engine saga and cannot wait to see your great 8 back in like-new condition!!!Please keep us posted!!!I hope you have better luck at the Machine Shop...than you have had over the last few weeks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Silverghost Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 TOM: Have you NOW found any relationship between the cylinders with low compression, & fast oil lekage past the rings, and the piston cracks that you have found upon dis-assembly???Did you find any cracked piston rings along with the piston cracks???I just wondered if there was any relationship between the piston cracks and your compression testing results??? The results might be very interesting!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom M Posted March 22, 2006 Author Share Posted March 22, 2006 Hi Brad,Nice to see that you?re back with us.You have not gotten me into any bigger job. I am glad you mention that I should pull a piston to check the rings or I would have never found the crack in the piston,Off hand I don't recall which cylinders leaked the fastest with the oil test.No cracked rings.I never did perform a compression test because I found some of the valve springs broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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