Supercharging (this time, it's real)

[Guest rocketguy]

Good Luck with your project dude. Thanks for taking the time to put it here for all of is to see.

Some rather pitiful insinuation is this post. Reatta, a CHIC car? Pa-lease! ! (Only Kidding)

This link may be of some help f14crazy:

More L-67 Info

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I checked out the link...it's relevent but not helpful. Always more "swap the whole motor" or "get a series II."

Might not get much time in today cuz I'm going to visit my girlfriend this evening but I'm going to start tearing down my LN3, and may not if for sure it'll bolt up or not. A quick look last night indicated that yes, the intake manifold bolt pattern is the same (which to me is the biggest challenge I face).

[Guest F14CRAZY]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The Old Thread, "Supercharging, revisited"

This is not a daydream, a crazy idea, speculation, etc. This time around, it's real.</div></div>

Doesn't Greg Ross have a supercharger in his Reatta? I fail to see how it's been speculation before if it's been done. There's also an Oldsmobile Trofeo out there with a series II supercharged, saw it in a gas station in Indiana a couple years ago. BTW, a Trofeo and a Reatta alot alike.

I know that supercharging has been done before. However, nobody else has attempted a bolt on project to the existing LN3

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

We came to the conclusion that it isn't that easy. Ryan of Sinister Performance/GMtuners said it would be about $6k to swap an L67, the supercharged series II 3800 and 4T60-e transmission into a '90 Reatta. We chose the '90 to avoid any instrumentation complications (like with the ECC). He'd also need about 6 weeks to do it, not to mention that he's near Fort Wayne, IN and we're near Lansing, MI.</div></div>

The instrumentation communications in the 90 is very similar to the eariler years, you still need the proper communications between the gauges and the body computer. Your body computer depends on the engine computer for much of it's data as well. In other words, you can't just go swapping computers.

That's exactly the problem

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There was no easy way, until now...

I propose to obtain a complete engine from a '95 or so era Park Avenue (or Riviera), the "series 1" supercharged 3800, and directly swap the necessary parts onto my engine, for a planned increase of about 60 horsepower, to 225 hp, up from 165. Maybe2fast, also known as Don in Walled Lake, MI is my primary moral supporter.</div></div>

You're buying the engine, then swapping parts to yours? Why not just install the entire engine? It's not exactly a P-N-P operation to install the supercharger on the early 3800.

It's not plug and play to install an entire, different engine either

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what I know, he knows, Ryan knows, and from other posts (like in Supercharging, Revisited [thanks guys]), this idea should work. We're not completely certain yet, but we think that the cylinder heads on my engine DO NOT need to be swapped out. </div></div>

While the cylinder heads may be a concern, you may want to think about the rest of the engine. Camshaft profile, rotationg assembly balance (you'll need the twin belt balancer) and anything else that might be different.

I've got the harmonic balancer

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The S/C engine, at least the series 1, is pretty much just an LN3. The crankshaft, pistons, and engine internals are pretty much the same. Nothing weird inside. The series II is a much different story, however, that's why we're skipping that one.</div></div>

Yes, they're very similar. There was quite a few changes between the 88-90 engine and the 91-95 non-supercharged.

We'll see

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ryan of GMtuners previously said that he can reburn by EEPROM/memcal/ECM chip to accomodate the changes in fuel, air, and the boost. I will be sending this to him pretty soon (like this Tuesday, after president's day)</div></div>

This is a mass airflow system, so it doesn't understand 'boost', just how much air is passing the sensor. There was some changes in the airflow sensor, so you might have some issues with it.

I'm competent that from what Ryan has said, he's making me a good program for this

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I say this is real because I've already secured the funding. My dad handed me $600 cash, </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have school, my wonderful girlfriend (sorry guys, it isn't Jessica ) a life, etc so I can't work on this project 24/7, but with a weekend, I'd say that this swap could be easily done in a day. I tend to work at a kind of slow pace and don't always have critical stuff on hand like gaskets, uncommon sockets and wrenches, etc. But nevertheless, it won't take a month or anything. I could probably get it done in a week or two with my schedule. The good thing is that our Reattas are laid up for the winter anyway, so there's not much to do.</div></div>

Be ready to spend alot more time than two weeks on it. If you've never tackled a major project like this, you're in for a surprise.

It probably will take more time, but a lot is waiting for parts (Advance Auto Parts won't have the gaskets I ordered until Saturday)

There was a guy a year or so ago that was doing a Series II / 4T60E swap in another guy's Reatta. He got on the gmecm mailing list asking questions about how to get the gauges to work. Found out he'd swapped computers, made quite a mess of the car. Just be careful with the electronics, it's easy to get into a ringer on one of these cars. </div></div>

Again, electronics are the hard part with doing this work, which is why I'm not going with the series II/4T60e or anything else. By keeping the LN3 right where it is, the ECM won't care. There's the boost issue and all, but at least gauges won't be a problem. I don't wish to offend or talk back or anything like that, just defend what I'm doing and why.

[2seater]

Don't apologize for anything you do You are in somewhat unexplored territory, so failure is a possibilty, but you'll never know until you try. You will need to figure out how to run the EGR or possibly delete it, (only as a last resort), also the boost control on the S/C will need a control and the LN3 heads lack the ports for the integrated PCV system. You could possibly plumb an external PCV system, similar to the stock engine, maybe swap the heads too, or I have been looking at adding the port to the stock heads, but I do not know yet if that is an option. My guess is if the vacuum to the trans. modulator is above the s/c rotors, boost won't be a problem for the modulator, but if it does see boost, you will need some sort of shutoff or a venting check valve like I made for that line. The stock trans will work if used sensibly but by all means, install a large cooler for the transaxle.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thanks for the encouragement, 2 seater and John. Gives the project some much needed morale.

About PCV...in the photo of the top view of the engine, the S/C housing has a black, square cover with like 2 bolts on it. In the photo, it's kind of in the top left corner. And it's marked PCV...could this be of use you think?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Or, could I like use the brake booster line that the Bonneville utilized and pipe the PCV or EGR to or something?

Sorry if this is a trivial question, but I haven't had a good look at the PCV or EGR. I understand what they do, but not where they plug in or anything (imma work on it tomorrow though and will learn quick)

Overread it, but thanks for mentioning the transaxle modulator. I might have to ask about how you dealt with it on your turbo setup.

Will be reporting back tomorrow

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Since I now have the intake manifold gaskets for a Reatta and the SSEi...I took quick look at them and compared them this morning. The ports and everything pretty much look the same, thought the SSEi gaskets have an extra hole, maybe the size of a dime. I'm going to take closer look later. But I don't think it will be hard to mate the supercharged intake manifold to the LN3 heads

[manikmekanik]

I noticed the aforementioned "extra hole" in your pix of the intake.

This may be to provide oil or coolant to the s/c from the heads, which may explain the "extra hole" in the gasket.

I have a 1990 olds 98-parts car, series I 3800, if it helps for reference, or parts.

"He will make this car the best he, (and his Dad), can afford."

With our help, along the way!

Kudos to you, Phillip! For taking the challenge most would not attempt!

Just remember, ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

ALL WORK AND NO PLAY MAKES JOHNNY A DULL BOY!

[Guest F14CRAZY]

manik: it's one L

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I know that supercharging has been done before. However, nobody else has attempted a bolt on project to the existing LN3</div></div>

I've heard of people doing it to an "L" engine, but not a "C". I'd recommend your first step to be attemtping to install the harmonic balancer. If it fits, start the engine and make sure you don't have a vibration. There are several part numbers for harmonic balancers for the 3800. Looking at a Dorman book, here's a few of them:

1988-1990 594-001

1995-2000 594-004

1991-1992 594-005

1993-1994 594-034

Dorman is an aftermarket company, they don't make any more part numbers than necessary. If this doesn't work, you'll want to take this project in a different direction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not plug and play to install an entire, different engine either</div></div>

Mechanically, it's very close. Electrically it's just as easy as what you're doing.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm competent that from what Ryan has said, he's making me a good program for this</div></div>

Not likely the first time. Get on thirdgen.org and find Grumpy. Ask him how many chips it takes to make something perfect.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Again, electronics are the hard part with doing this work, which is why I'm not going with the series II/4T60e or anything else. By keeping the LN3 right where it is, the ECM won't care.</div></div>

The ECM does not care what engine you have. It cares what it's sensor inputs are and that it has 6 saturated fuel injectors to drive. Now, by changing how it gets it's air and the size of the injectors you're using, you've just thrown off the code in that 32KB chip. By keeping the "C" engine, you will not make this part of the project any easier.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There's the boost issue and all, but at least gauges won't be a problem. I don't wish to offend or talk back or anything like that, just defend what I'm doing and why. </div></div>

There is no boost issue! This ECM does not understand or see boost. You have no MAP sensor. I'm not offended, I'm just trying to explain how this ECM thinks. It has no comprehension of how the air gets in there, it just measures incoming air.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Thank you Trofeo. I brought up boost because Ryan told me this a while back...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Philip, yes this should be able to be done physically, but the engine you have does not have as durable of internals as an engine that originally came with a supercharger. This means that your engine may not last very long if you put the supercharger on it. Yes, I can reprogram your computer to work with the larger injectors and dump more fuel, but your computer is still not going to be able to recognize the presence of the supercharger. While it will still work using your stock computer, it won't be perfect.

Philip, the main problem we run into when trying to use a turbo or supercharger with you computer is that while I can reprogram it to dump enough fuel to compensate for boost, the computer will not be able to determine how much boost you are running nor exactly when you enter boost. Basically what will happen is say at about 1psi of boost the computer will go into "power enrichment" mode which is when the computer will dump this extra fuel. However at 1psi of boost, obviously there will be too much fuel being dumped since we will have to reprogram the computer to dump enough fuel for say 10psi of boost which is what you will probably have at WOT. As you can see, fuel delivery isn't going to be perfect, but it does work.</span>

[bigsteviejoe]

Perfect Power units measure absolute manifold pressure, tps and rpm to come up with the values to translate to the ECU. Now if it can do that and retard timing whats not being thought of?

(At first I thought it was just a MAF to MAF translator)

I've heard of piggybacks not being able to compensate for real weather situations, (runs perfect on dyno, lousy out on the street)

Large injectors, low horsepower computer = make small adjustments large, but the more powerful engine requires the fuel anyways.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I'm not smart with this stuff, but if all that's met, why would the ECM care?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Comparing the Reatta LN3 (right) throttle body to the L67's (left).

This is me holding up a new LN3 intake manifold gasket on the L67 manifold. Notice the extra intake port I mentioned on the bottom left.

Happened to take this pic on Maui's spoiler . On the bottom is the L67 gasket, and the LN3 is on top.

Throttle body off of my LN3

Another shot of the engine without the throttle body

Fuel rail and injectors removed

Intake manifold off

What a mess!

L67 gasket sitting on the LN3 (not ready yet). You can see where the extra port is going to sit...not a big deal

Had to stand on the table for this shot...kind of pointless, but it's the L67 (left) and LN3 (right) manifolds.

Put over 4 hours into the project tonight and got a lot done. Got my LN3 torn down. Tomorrow, I should be able to install the L67 manifold. The last thing I got done before calling it a night was I removed the big aluminum assembly that the power steering pump and belt tensioner mount to. Though the L67's assembly is a bit more complex, I checked the bolt pattern and yes, it should bolt up.

That's about it. Catch you all later

[2seater]

The extra hole will be on opposite corners of the manifold. From the driver's position it will be at the right rear and the left front. They are the PCV passages you won't have on the LN3 heads. They are not oiling holes, although they will likely look oily. They do connect internally to the black box you mentioned. On the TPI manifold from an L27, it is on the far right side. My best guess is if you use the L67 gaskets, the s/c manifold will seal up fine on the blank spot of the LN3 head, rendering the PCV inoperative. This is a gray area and I do not know for certain if the flat area on the LN3 and L27/L67 is the same size. I know the bolt pattern is the same. You could plumb PCV from one or both valve covers, or possibly some open area on the S/C lower manifold open to the valley like stock. In any case, an oil baffle or seperator will be needed below the hole. There is very little room inside the valve covers so you will have to investigate thoroughly before you poke holes in them. I have been considering using the lower part of an L27 TPI manifold with a custom welded upper plenum for the turbo project. The PCV is also a problem, just like you have, but I had given serious thought to cutting off the stock EGR hookup from the LN3 and welding it on the new plenum. By the way, the early model TPI 3800 did not use any EGR at all.

As for the ECM not sensing boost, that is absolutely true. It never has been true, even for the GN's, but the programming was designed to assume it was there based on the amount of air flow. Air flow is really the key and how to capture all of it without going out of the range of the ECM or the ability to adjust to the air flow is lost. Working on that problem on the flow bench now. The 3" MAF from a 3400 engine appears to flow just over 1.5 times the air at the same frequency output as the stock MAF.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

As I understand it...

PCV, positive crankcase ventilation, is to let blowby gasses out of the inside of the motor...there's a line that connects from the front valve cover and runs to the throttle body (connects about where the TPS is, I know cuz it gets in the way). Isn't this a PCV line? Is it good enough?

[2seater]

The MAF in your photo looks just like the integrated MAF/throttle body from the L27 TPI manifold. It is also made by Hitachi. I checked the L27 throttle size and it is exactly the same size as the LN3. The one for the s/c may be larger, but I bet the stock LN3 intake hose will slip right on the s/c MAF.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

2seater: This is the thing that I think is the PCV. Is it sufficient?

[2seater]

The line from the valve cover to the throttle body is part of the system. That line allows filtered air to enter the engine and the PCV valve on the right rear of the intake is subject to manifold vacuum and flows a metered amount of air, drawn from the valley area, into the intake plenum. The pan on the bottom of the LN3 manifold acts as the oil baffle to keep oil splash from being sucked in. If you remove the pan you will see the PCV valve grommet in the lower manifold is inside this pan. You need both intake of air to the inside of the engine and the metering valve to pull the air through and into the intake. Old style PCV systems allowed air in one valve cover (like ours) and the PCV valve was connected to the opposite one. Maybe two front valve covers would work??

[Guest F14CRAZY]

2seater: thanks for all your help...in yellow above, this cover has "PCV" stamped on it. Does it my cause at all?

I really like the idea of two front valve covers. I probably wouldn't have ever thought of such an idea. I have easy access to an '88 Rivi (which I've parted out a lot already) and will see if the front and rear covers are compatible. I imagine they are.

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you Trofeo. I brought up boost because Ryan told me this a while back...

<span style="font-weight: bold">Philip, yes this should be able to be done physically, but the engine you have does not have as durable of internals as an engine that originally came with a supercharger. This means that your engine may not last very long if you put the supercharger on it. Yes, I can reprogram your computer to work with the larger injectors and dump more fuel, but your computer is still not going to be able to recognize the presence of the supercharger. While it will still work using your stock computer, it won't be perfect. </span></div></div>

I agree that you will be shortening engine life with this project. Adding more power usually has that effect. Again, my biggest concern mechanically is that harmonic balancer. Aside from that, and a little work with the PCV, I don't see why it wouldn't work. It might not work for very long, but "C" motors are cheap and plentiful so you can pretty much blow them up and throw them away without concern.

Don't worry about the computer not 'recognizing the presence of the supercharger'. The 92-95 supercharged computers don't have any way of knowing if the incoming air is pressurized in the manifold or under vacuum. The MAP sensor in these applications is only for the boost gauge. To run perfect, all it needs is a proper tune, which can be achieved with the 1228253 ECM, but it will take some specialized attention, and don't expect it to work right on the first chip.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Philip, the main problem we run into when trying to use a turbo or supercharger with you computer is that while I can reprogram it to dump enough fuel to compensate for boost, the computer will not be able to determine how much boost you are running nor exactly when you enter boost.</span></div></div>

This is somewhat correct. With this computer, you're not trying to adjust for boost, you're adjusting for load and airflow. When tuning something like this, you need to forget about boost.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Basically what will happen is say at about 1psi of boost the computer will go into "power enrichment" mode which is when the computer will dump this extra fuel. However at 1psi of boost, obviously there will be too much fuel being dumped since we will have to reprogram the computer to dump enough fuel for say 10psi of boost which is what you will probably have at WOT. As you can see, fuel delivery isn't going to be perfect, but it does work.</span> </div></div>

If this was true, none of the 92-95 supercharged cars would work correctly. In these computers, power enrichment is a multiplier. If your MAF tables are calibrated correctly, when you apply enough TPS to enter power enrichment mode the computer will add the PE calculation for that RPM to the formula for injector pulsewidth (it's a bit more complicated than that, but this should give you the general idea). As 'boost' goes up, airflow goes up. If your tables are correct it will provide the proper fueling.

Ryan is going to have a big challenge getting this to run correctly without the car being physically present.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Will be posting photos of today's work later...

Picked up gaskets from Advance Auto Parts, and I think I have all the ones I need this time. We dropped by the parts Riviera and got the front valve cover. I'll be pimp, with not one, but two oil fill caps!

Since I had all the junk out of the way, I decided to go ahead and mess with the harmonic balancer. I'll post the pix comparing the two, but they're pretty much compatible with each other. The crankshaft position sensor and the toothed ring thing are different. I had the idea of swapping the toothed ring from my '89 balancer to the L67 balancer, but the LN3 balancer has like propriety bolts or something, so we gave up. I took a look at both crankshaft position sensors, and the L67's will bolt up to the LN3 (I've got photos of those too). The L67 sensor had some cracks in it, so I held off on putting it on (gonna pick one up later, my 3rd visit to advance auto parts today. The manager is giving me discounts now).

Had to use a 15/16'' socket (yeah I know it's metric) with a breaker bar, with like a 5 foot extension, and my little brother (14) standing on my dad's 48'' aluminum pipe wrench around the balancer to get the L67's balancer off.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Here, we have the backsides of both harmonic balancers. L67 on the left, LN3 on the right. The bores, keyway, and diameter are all the same.

Top (I guess you could say) view of the balancers, on my dumb trailer, with my dad and his van in the background. With the balancers placed on their front sides on a flat surface, a level put on top of them proves that they're the same thickness.

And this view, if you're interested. Not much to see

And, the crankshaft position sensors of the L67 (left) and LN3 (right). I'll be back soon, like in half an hour and post more about what happened today. Made some progress, but wanted to get these pix up for you guys

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Well, I made some decent progress. Haven't got any L67 parts bolted up, yet. But they will bolt up fine.

Today, since I had the aluminum idler/tensioner assembly off, I decided that it would be a good time to mess with the harmonic balancer. The L67 uses two belts, so, we have different crankshaft pulleys to deal with. It took a lot of physical violence to get the one off the L67, but the LN3 balancer was easy (had it off less than a year ago). The aluminum interrupter/interruptor ring of the L67 balancer is of a larger diameter compared with the LN3s, so it wouldn't mesh with the crankshaft position sensor of the LN3. My first idea was to swap the interrupter rings...an examination concluded that they could be swapped. But the LN3 had bolts with propriety heads. I thought I needed Torx sockets for it so I picked up a set, but those didn't get it either. I tried a ton of 1/4'' drive sockets and none of those worked. The L67 had 2 regular hex headed bolts which came quietly. After spending too much time on it, I decided that it would be easier to swap the sensors themselves. As you can see, they're slightly different, but will bolt into place. I'm assuming that the signals are the same. The L67's sensor had a crack, so I picked up a new one from Advance ($28).

I didn't have the new sensor, but I tried putting the L67 balancer on my crankshaft and it started ok...didn't want to tighten it down cuz it was a PITA to get off the L67 crank. However, I tried the LN3 balancer on the L67 shaft, and it fits perfectly fine.

As I posted earlier, I got the front valve cover from the parts Rivi, so I'll have the exit vent for the PCV.

Soon to have two oil fill caps . I'll be back on it tomorrow.

[ALF1]

The Reatta is what it is: a semi-luxury, two-passenger sports-oriented, limited-production automobile. It's now past its prime, with out-of-date electronics. You wanna stuff a 707 jet engine in a Piper Club? You're gonna create more problems than you started with. Beware what you create; it's gonna be a monster, capable of killing you with a smile.

<span style="font-weight: bold"> -- ALF</span>

[Guest F14CRAZY]

It gets worse...

On my Explorer message board with a dude with a Bronco II, with a few thousand posts. He had a 2.9L with a 5 speed. Then went to a 4.0L OHV and an A4LD auto. Then recently, he went to a 5.0L/4R70W auto from a Mounty, and got rid of the AWD that came with and went with a 2 speed transfer case.

And it's his everyday driver

[padgett]

1) you cannot put an "L" balancer on a "C" crank and have it work properly. The shape of the snout is different.

2) There are MAP adherants and those who sware by MAF. It really does not matter though IMNSHO MAP lags MAF slightly. Probably not enough to bother at the relatively slow speed of a 68HC11.

You can derive either from the other when you use LV8 (load value 8 which compensates for a number of fudge factors including temperature) and rpm. Nice thing about MAF is there is no zero crossing but the "C" MAF tables top out at 170 gm/sec and a boosted engine can easily exceed that.

I have not gotten real deep into that aspect but there are those who have.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

I don't wish to disagree with the honerable Padgett, but I beg to differ...I fitted the L67 balancer to my crankshaft this morning. Pix will follow. I stopped inside to eat lunch.

[OldsTrofeo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) you cannot put an "L" balancer on a "C" crank and have it work properly. The shape of the snout is different.</div></div>

I sort of expected this, but wasn't sure. Will be interesting to see his results.

F14CRAZY: Be careful installing that balancer. If it doesn't go on all the way, you might be removing it with a torch...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2) There are MAP adherants and those who sware by MAF. It really does not matter though IMNSHO MAP lags MAF slightly. Probably not enough to bother at the relatively slow speed of a 68HC11.</div></div>

I don't have a huge preference either way on the P4's, but really like the LS series engines with both. The MAP seems to pick up transitions a little faster (air flow sensed vs. actual manifold filling). Can really make them run nice that way. Like you said, with the speed of the processor, it doesn't really matter. Even worse with an old C3...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can derive either from the other when you use LV8 (load value 8 which compensates for a number of fudge factors including temperature) and rpm. Nice thing about MAF is there is no zero crossing but the "C" MAF tables top out at 170 gm/sec and a boosted engine can easily exceed that.

I have not gotten real deep into that aspect but there are those who have. </div></div>

I have heard of people changing the MAF tables in this ECM for higher flow rates with good results. The GMECM list would be a good place to inquire about this, as I think that's where I heard about it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">F14CRAZY said:</span>

I'm assuming that the signals are the same. </div></div>

Yes, all dual sensor 3800 crank signals are the same.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Today, Day 4...got the harmonic balancer mess over with, swapped the rear valve cover, and messed with the tensioner assembly

New L67 crankshaft position sensor

Sometimes, some physical violence is needed for those harmonic balancers...

You may have noticed, but in a few of my pix there's been a can of ether. We always have a lot for my dad's diesel and I found out that it's a fantastic, cheap cleaner. Good for getting crud of bolts before you put them on.

Check it out! Harmonic balancer ready to go. My dad and I both messed with it, but it went on fine. Balancer and its bolt are tight and it spins true. The L67's bolt had more threads on it (hard to explain, but it's more normal compared with the goofy LN3 bolt).

Notice my dual front valve cover arrangment. It's aluminum. I cleaned it up with some stripper. I didn't feel like waiting and matching paint, etc, so I'm mounting it as is. I'll get to painting it eventually. I do have the cap.

Idler/tensioner assembly mounted. It's massive compared with the old one, but the bolt holes are the same. The alternator goes where the power steering pump usually is on a Reatta, and the power steering pump sits down and back. I had to remove the resevoir for it to bolt up, so I'm going to go to the parts Lesabre we have and rob the resevoir...the TPI motor and this L67 use a resevoir that sits kind of where the EGR valve is on our Reattas. I'll run some hose to it, shouldn't be a problem. I misplaced one of the bolts for the pump, so I'll run to Mid-States tomorrow and get a replacement.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

No pix today, but not much to see...

It's day 5 of the project. Stopped by Mid States bolt and screw and got another bolt to mount the power steering pump to the tensioner assembly (I lost one bolt). Resevoir is gonna have to be relocated, with lines run to the pump and to the power steering cooler line. Not a big deal though.

I got the intake manifold mounted, new gaskets and all. The Reatta FSM says to torque it to 88 ft/in=7.3 ft/lbs, which I did. Is this ok? Was wondering if supercharging would make a difference, but the gaskets for the L67 and the LN3 were the same, only different in the L67 having that extra port. No problems at all bolting it up though.

Tomorrow I'll pick up some hose to run from the water pump to the heater core and for the p/s pump and stuff.

[luftweg]

.... love that pipe wrench (or monkey wrench?) holding the hood up!

[Guest F14CRAZY]

ha it looks like it is, but actually it isn't. Pipe wrench is almost touching the hood. It was almost in the way

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 6!

Got those coolant tubes stuck in the motor

And here's a shot of my rigged up power steering line

[Guest MauiWowee]

I love it when a plan comes together.

Ummmmm....did you finish all your dash mods?

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Not done inside yet. I've got everything to do it though. Kind of focusing on getting the car running and running good, and having the engine not in pieces

[89REATTAJIM]

"And here's a shot of my rigged up power steering line"

Looks like it helps to be in the plumbing business..... Seriously, looks like your project is coming along very well. Good luck on gps job too.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Yesterday, I went ahead and gave Ryan the go to burn the memcal program. We're going without EGR, at least for the time being, because of the different valve setups (including Padgett syaing that one's digital and one's analog).

Today I hope to get the coolant lines all set and work on the power steering. I'm thinking to make some modifcations to the coolant tank so the p/s fluid resevoir can be attached to it.

[Guest F14CRAZY]

Day 7 folks. But oh my, look what F14's...

A lot of other little things to do, but it's coming along quite well.

If you haven't seen me, this is me. Looks bad I know. Taken in the dark with one hand on the camera. Nevertheless, it's a proud Reatta owner

[Guest EDBSO]

Will we be using the photo on the "Wanted Poster" when you are wanted for speeding?