Dave Mitchell Posted January 24, 2006 Share Posted January 24, 2006 Did anyone go to the Palm Beach auction? Just curious how high the Nash went. Looks like a nice car, but an older restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Yes. A very nice car. But, again, the precurser "older restoration" doesn't necessarily apply. This car won Best in Class at Pebble Beach with a 13-year-old restoration.The car was bid to $160,000 and did not sell. It's a one-of-a-kind car, and is actually a better car than a Packard Super 8 or Cadillac V8, certainly its coachwork is much better.Beebe still has it for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 You got a picture of that, West?W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Catolog description is online at http://www.goodingco.com/auctions/palmBeach_2006/lot32.htmlA.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I believe I have a picture of that car at an AACA Meet from about three years ago. That's really nice! Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 I agree with West, this is a very nice car and I am surprised that it didn't bid higher, considering the amount of money spent on its restoration. I suspect that it has less to do with present quality than the fact that people know very little about what a great car this is. I am restoring one now and it has some great engineering features and is a really pleasing, high quality car all around, certainly on a par with most well respected high end classics, and much rarer. After a fair amount of looking, I can only find solid evidence of 4 32s and the 1 33 90 series convertible sedan still existing, and one of those is in Europe. Hopefully people will learn more about these very interesting cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The man that restored the car was only 27 years old at the time, and this was his first major restoration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 People tend to gravitate towards particular makes and then move up within the make as they get more hooked. The Nash is a spectacular car, and if the body was on a packard chassis it would probably go for 400k.A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I can't argue with that Al, some people shy away from cars that they don't know about and the Nash suffers from underexposure as there are so few of them around. They are cars that actually look like the catalog photos! The sedans are just as dramatic. This car has a folding windshield and looks great with the top up or down and is a nice car to drive with Bijur lubrication and ride control, a 9 main bearing twin ignition 8 with aluminum rods and pistons and a nice light chassis. The frames are lightened like an SSK! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Dave, that sounds really neat. Do you think you could post a couple of pictures? I don't know that I have ever seen one in person.A.J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 Nash photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 Nash frame, light, but strong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 side view of Nash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 The price that the 33 was bid to is interesting as there is a 32 that needs a total restoration for sale for $100K now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 looks like the frame photo didn't attach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 What's the Packard Twelve engine to in the background of the frame picture? We notice all things in the background of pictures here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 5, 2006 Author Share Posted February 5, 2006 That is a 39 12 block that I am just stripping to rebuild. I have several V12 engines waiting to be done. I am very lucky to have a man working with me who has been rebuilding Packards for 40 years and is a fanatical perfectionist with incredible knowledge of all the little tricks of rebuilding these engines and having them silent and powerful when you get done. I have a 37 12 that I have put about 18,000 miles on and it is a dream to drive.Seriously, give the CCCA another chance - I have met some of my best friends through the CCCA and had great fun seeing and doing things I never would have done if I hadn't gotten involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Don't worry, I've been in the CCCA for many years, and will probably be a member for the rest of my life, unless, of course, they let too many post war cars in! If you don't mind me asking, approxomatley what would it cost to have a Packard Twelve long block rebuilt these days? No accessories, just the innards, and assuming you already have a good timing cover & heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 I'll be able to more accurately tell you that in a few weeks when I get the machine shop bill on this engine for cleaning, checking it, boring it, putting hardened seats in for exhaust valves, align boring the mains, grinding the crank (and taking off the counterweights) I think that the last one was about $4000. If you rebabbit the bearings they are about $1200. Sometimes the main and cam bearings are ok, and that saves some money. You can spend anywhere from 900 to 1800 on pistons, and I will have to look up and see what valve train parts are, and guess on head and manifold gaskets - we make the rest - but I would guess that your fixed costs are going to be over $10,000 with no labor included. The heads and covers usually need some work somewhere, and you end up making new studs and other hardware, and buying some stainless and polishing it. You can spend a fair amount of time on the valve blocks and I am not sure if the silencers are still available - I haven't seen an ad for new ones for a long time and the last repop ones I got were rusty and I had to send them back. Adjusting the valves properly takes a couple days, the Egge valves are way too long and it takes time to cut them down. There is a lot of work on a 12, but they are fantastic engines when done. You can also do other things like aluminum rods or put in inserts, etc. I always do it to the point that I run it on a stand, so that I know everything is ok, even with a 120 motor, so I can't say exactly about doing one just as a long block, but we could do that. A lot depends on how you want the cosmetics. I personally think that the blocks weren't overly finished, I think that the correct thing is to prime it with an etch primer, one coat of primer sanded and them paint the block, but some people want the casting marks all ground smooth and that takes a lot more time. There are a lot of pieces to paint, so even if you don't do a lot of metal finishing or filling, it still takes some time. What year are you thinking of doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Dave,I don't see any physical difference between the 1932 and the 1933. I guess Nash didn't use skirted fenders in 1933. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8096 Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 1938. Don't own the car yet though, it's in the woodwork. I'm a do it your selfer, but obviously can't do the heavy machine work. To tell you the truth, I'd probably disassemble & redo the valves, timing gears, & flywheel myself. I'd just have a shop do the line boring & clyinder boring, and then the fitting of pistons, rods, camshaft, and crankshaft. Obviously while all apart, you'd have to have the block boiled out. I come from the mindset that if you can't do a lot of the work yourself, you shouldn't own the car in the first place. I like getting my hands dirty & learning how things are put together. I guess that's why I feel out of place sometimes at many CCCA events where most people do not seem to think this way. How many doctors & lawyers are Master Judges & have never lifted a wrench to their car. I know several personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 I like 1938s - I have 4 of them, 7 pass sedan, limo, conv sedan, and 5 pass sedan, in various states of repair, and most of two more, a 5 pass and a 7 pass. While the 38s aren't the most popular or the most valuable, those who have them will tell you that they are arguably the best of the V12s to drive. The balance is very good and the systems are as refined as they got in the 12s. I would advise you to really do your homework before taking on a rebuild as a DIY project. I know several restorers who are good at other types of cars who have done a less than perfect job on a V12 engine as they don't know the problems and things you have to deal with on a V12. Your average machine shop has never seen one and they aren't used to boring an engine where the top of the block is not perpendicular to the bore, or had to take the counterweights off the crank to grind it. You will need some special tools, but that is another DIY project if you want to make them. The other problem is that the Packard manuals are not the best, so that increases the difficulty factor. I don't doubt that you can do it, but make sure you learn all you can before you jump into it. It helps to know where to buy what and which things commonly advertized that you should avoid. The secret here is to make one run really well, rather than just getting it to run. There are a lot of 12s that just run. I also like to work on these cars, to assemble things and make them work like they did when new. I enjoy saving a car from being parted out, making something out of nothing, or taking a sad old restoration and making it beautiful and fun to drive. Then I enjoy showing and driving it that much more.I don't agree with you that you should be able to fix your car or you shouldn't own it. I have no clue about fixing the computer contolled things on my Jeep or Suburban and have little interest in it, I take it to the dealer for most everything. I have friends who love their cars, but aren't really mechanically inclined, and it is better if they leave the car alone instead of breaking the delicate bits and then taking the pieces to someone to work miracles on them. I don't think that means that they should sell their car. Some people only like the cars for the design and engineering and are happy to see it just stationary as a work of art, some like to just show them and not drive them. I have a friend who can fix most anything and does fantastic, world class restoration in his garage, better than most professionals, but will not drive his car once it is done and perfect. Ok with me, it is whatever he wants and enjoys, and I like to see it. When it comes to judging, most of the points taken off in CCCA judging are for quality issues with cosmetics or functional items that don't work - like lights or clocks - not with authenticity, and everyone is an expert on paint and chrome, so what you do for a living or whether you can put together your engine seldom makes a difference. In fact, professional restorers aren't usually the first choice for judges, even though they would probably be fairer and more lenient than some of the fanatical hobbyists.I am glad that anyone who is interested in the classics buys them, the more the merrier I say. I am not interested in the stock market, but I don't hold it against the guys that make money with it, as long as they don't want hold it against me that I don't have a clue about it. I don't like blood or looking in people's mouths, so I wouldn't be a good doctor or dentist, and law bores me, so I am really glad those folks do those jobs and I am very happy if they buy lots of cars and take them to people who know them and love to work on them, and then show them to guys who wouldn't otherwise see them at shows. I have other friends who could work on their cars, but are way too busy doing whatever it is that makes them money so they can buy and restore more cars. I don't think that this is the sole realm of the CCCA either, there are plenty of rich guys in other clubs. I will never be rich, so I hope that they accept me not for my money, but because I can work on their cars, which is a pretty odd and not really well respected skill set. If you tell people that you restore cars from the 30s, the best it gets you is a quizical look and that they tell you "that sounds interesting". Who knows what kind of nut they really think you are! And trust me, you will never, ever get rich restoring old cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Mitchell Posted February 7, 2006 Author Share Posted February 7, 2006 West, I think you are right, there is very little difference in the 32 and 33. The top on the 32 drops more in the back and is more sporty and I think better looking. I am not sure if the metal spare covers were new for 33 or just an option, as the other 32s I know of have or originally had canvas covers. There is a badge on the headlight tie bar that says "Twin Ignition 8" I think, and that was new for 33 or added in late 32, and the instruments are completely different in 33 from the second series 32. Otherwise, I think they are basically the same car. I will admit that I haven't seen the 33 in person since the annual meeting in Colorado a few years ago, but that is how it looks to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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