Antique Car for Daily Driving

[elynnia]

Hiya,

I just joined today for a question about driving antique cars - pretty soon I'll be in University, and for it I'll be needing to get a car. Anyways, I have an interest in antique cars - especially those from the 1930's to 1960's and I was wondering, how old is too old to drive daily? I'm in Sydney, Australia, but I see 50's and 60's cars being driven around, but I'm not so sure about cars older than that. My favourites are the 1930's Plymouth, Oldsmobile and other American sedans, as well as late 50's/early 60's British convertibles, and the VW Karmann-Ghia...any information would be great.

thanks,

elynnia

[Dave@Moon]

Hi Elynnia,

Most people consider the performance characteristics of any car with less than a V8 engine before 1970 to be too cumbersome in today's traffic. I had a 1960 Falcon (virtually identical to the Aussie version, though with a terrible 2-speed automatic tranny) for a daily driver in the 1980's in college. It was fine in Iowa but was clearly out of it's element when I moved to a major city (Pittsburgh) after graduation.

I think the answer to your question will be more dependent on the type of car than the era. For instance V8 Fords are a lot better at coping with today's traffic than the 6 cylinder Plymouths and Oldmobiles you mention. Also brakes and steering are as much to blame for older cars shortcomings as engine performance, and even a spightly flathead Ford will not drive remotely like a Honda Civic in the end.

There's also the not inconsequential elements of finding parts, safety (daily drivers get hit, you know!), and fuel costs. The specific elements to be evaluated there are your circumstances, and the risks and costs involved. If you're driving 3000 miles per year in quiet suburbia it'll be a little different than for someone driving 30,000 miles per year on urban freeways.

Ultimately it's a decision you must make, based largely on what you're willing to put up with. You <span style="font-style: italic">could</span> commute to work in New York City in a curved dash Olds, but it wouldn't be much fun after a while.

[elynnia]

Hiya,

The traffic congestion in Sydney is virtually nonexistant if you compare it to London or Tokyo - and it's probably much less than the big city in the States which I've heard descriptions of. Anyhow, could you tell me a bit more about the details - how much petrol do antique cars drink? I have the idea that V8s do use a lot of petrol - but then, it might be a consequence of being in AUstralia where most cars are Australian, Japanese or European without V8s.

About terminology - What is a 'flathead Ford' and a 'curved dash Olds'?

Also - how do the British and European medium/small cars of the 40s and the 50s go in modern conditions?

Finally, is there anything control-wise that is significantly different on an antique car from a modern one?

thanks so much,

elynnia

[Guest sixpack2639]

Hi Elynnia, When people are referring to a flat head Ford they are actually talking about the flat head V8 motor in them that looks like this:

And this is a Curved Dash Olds.

[Dave@Moon]

elynnia,

After 1930 most major controls were pretty much standardized, although such things as gear change patterns and starter controls did vary some through the 1960's.

The European cars of the 1940's and 1950's were made under <span style="font-weight: bold">VERY</span> different economic times, and for conditions in which performance simply didn't matter. <span style="font-weight: bold">Most</span> of the small/mid-size cars of that <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> era are lucky if they can get to 60 miles per hour (100 km/hr) in less than 30 seconds, <span style="font-style: italic">if at all!</span> Many can't do 60mph/100kph! Most semi-trucks and heavy equipment can beat that, and you simply couldn't sell a car like an original VW Beetle or Renault 2CV in today's market. They do commonly return around 30 miles per gallon (36 mpg Imperial/Biritsh, 12.8 km/l), however.

Driving <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> European car of that era short of a sports car (Triumph TR2 or larger) or a large GT (Grand Touring--think expensive Mercedes' and Aston Martins) will largely limit you to the two lane back roads in any remotely urban area. At that you will still be a hinderence to other cars, which grates after a while no matter how independent a person you are. Even such cars as 1950's Volvo and Mercedes sedans are often dangerously slow by today's standards.

It's best to go to a library and look up old issues of <span style="font-style: italic">Motor</span> and other car magazines of the age you're interested in to see their performance figures. Bear in mind, however, that many of those tests were of cars that were provided by the manufacturers for the magazine, and so were prepared to the hilt (Pontiac for instance in the U.S. was infamous for mis-labling large engines as their smaller cousins to cheat on "published performance figures"). Also when tested they were driven to within an inch of their lives, so if you want to actually get the figures you read be prepared for the car to disintegrate after a few drives!

American cars' performance was vastly superior in that era (and I'm a Triumph guy!). However any American car of that era that'll do a 12-15 second 0 to 60 (very slow by today's standards, but probably tolerable) will be lucky to get better than 15 miles per gallon (18 mpg British/Imperial, 6.4 km/l) in fuel economy. Many will use 50% more than fuel than that, and even worse is possible if luxury cars or hot rods are considered. Fuel is projected to skyrocket worldwide in the next 5 to 10 years as the Middle East begins to run dry, so this is not a minor consideration. The number of miles you intend to drive the car, and the degree of flexibility you have in case your plans change, will dictate how much this effects you.

Also, if you're interested, the "flathead Ford" V8 was made from 1932 to 1953 (in passenger cars in the U.S.), although they didn't really have a "modern" chassis (independent front suspension) until 1949 and even did without hydraulic brakes until 1939--last in the U.S. among major brands on both counts. By 1955 All major U.S. manufacturers had a "modern" overhead valve V8 of the type that replaced the Ford flathead in 1954, which was usually optional over a standard straight 6.

[Guest BillP]

Holdens from the mid-fifties are still around and were fairly solidly engineered and built. There are clubs and breakers for support and parts. Ford same thing. Sportier cars like MGs and other smaller British makes as well as (you mentioned) VW-based Karmann Ghia are robust and fairly well supported. Triumph was not well-represented there but there are still many MGs (built approx 1964-1980) on the road. Older Japanese cars are usually limited to Corolla sedans or worn out small pickups.

All the above return relatively good gas mileage and are easily able to keep up with your traffic. Get much older than 1950 or so and you should have some fair knowledge yourself or a garage that knows how to work on them properly.

Go to the news counter and get one of those magazines with a thousand or so pictures of vintage cars for sale, you may see something.

[Guest]

My Pontiac has been my daily driver since 1959. It had 99,000 miles on it when I started driving it. Now 46 years later it has gone 480,000 miles. I have overhauled the engine once, have put three rear ends in it and have never opened the transmission other than to change the oil every two years. I change the antifreeze every second year and the oil every 3,000 miles (approx 3 months. This car was bought new by my grandfather and including the original purchase price and all repairs but not including gas oil or tires it has cost just under $100.00 per year for 75 years of use. I drive it about 50/50 city and highway miles. On the highway I drive 50 to 55 mph usually but will drive it 60 mph on the interstate highways in Washington and Oregon.In 46 years I have had two breakdowns on the road. One my clutch pressure plate disintegrated (I had been pulling shrubs out by the roots the day before) and once I hit a pot hole once and shattered a king pin.

I can see no reason that any North American made car after 1928 would not make a totally reliable daily driver.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> On the highway I drive 50 to 55 mph usually but will drive it 60 mph on the interstate highways in Washington and Oregon. </div></div>

Reid,

If you made it for one month commuting in Cincinnati with your Pontiac and survived, your car would not. I'm sure in Victoria or any other small town of 75,000 (depending on route and conditions) it might be O.K., but in a major city it would be near suicide.

Also I see that you're averaging a little over 8200 miles/year. Most people in large cities aren't that fortunate, which impacts not just fuel costs but repair and maintenance issues, to say nothing of insurance costs if you can get it.

I advocate driving antique cars to the greatest degree possible <span style="font-style: italic">as a hobby.</span> However when you get into the position of having your life and livelyhood depending on them it'll get real dicey real fast, and it takes great care and preparation. "elynnia" has taken the first, best steps here. His/her circumstances will dictate what is possible.

[manikmekanik]

You may want to consider a "collectible" or "vehicle of particular interest" car which is not new, yet not quite antique. Rare, stylish cars and sportscars of the later model class fit into this category. I am a collector of these and some antiques as well. Antique, here in the USA, is defined differently by each state, generally 20 - 25 years old. This places 1985 cars in the antique class.

Many unique, stylish, or sportscars have been produced since 1985, including:

Buick Grand National/Turbo 3.8 litre V6 - muscle car - 12 sec. stock! RARE!

Cadillac Allante 4.5 litre Performance V8 - Pinnfarin body, hard/soft top, WOW!

Corvette - not the best fuel economy but, it's a small island, Cutting your driving time in half affords half the fuel economy-so it's a wash, right? FAST!

The list of American cars goes on, and there are a few nice imports, too.

It seems you want a performance-oriented car, which is stylish in nature, and is the oly one in your town, state, or better yet-your nation.

My personal favourite of the modern collectibles is the Buick Reatta line, produced from 1988 'till 1991. They are based on the Rivieras of the same era, with the extremely reliable, powerful and fuel-efficient 3800 V6, with a 4-speed automatic. City MPG @25/27, Hiway MPG 30/33. These 2-seaters were overlooked by a market which wanted trucks, and were dropped by GM to build more trucks for that market. In the last year produced, less than 2500 cars were released, with only 196 of the convertibles hitting the road. Gm execs were "given" 46 of these cars, making only 150 available to the public. They are among the most rare lines of cars since the 1959 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, with only 101 cars. Buick pulled out all the stops when building these cars, even designating a plant solely for their "hand built" high-tech personal luxury cars. Decades of Buick style, quality and engineering are all evident in every inch of these beauties. They are the only 2-seater sportscar Buick has ever produced, and among the few "Hand built" cars made in the USA.

Each car's owners' manual includes a "technician's log" with the signatures of the SIX people who built the car.

There is a Buick Reatta Division of the Buick Club of America (BCA), and a discussion forum on this site which can give you more info on these unique sportscars.

There is also a BCA Buy/Sell forum, where I have listed my collection of fine automobiles, Reattae in particular, for sale. I'll attach a photo here of our 1991 Reatta Convertible, more are posted on my BCA Buy/Sell thread entitled

"FS 88-91 Reatta coupes,convertibles show winning cars!!", where you will find honest descriptions as well.

Check it out, then check if any exist near you. You could spend less than new, and have the only one around! The '59 Eldo ragtops sell in the 6-figure range, so Reattae are "value-driven" collectibles at this time. Once their desirability rises, the prices will soar due to their extreme rarity.

[Guest BillP]

Include in your contemplations motor freight to west coast US, container shipment to AUS, import duty & fees, conversion to left hand drive.

For the latter, there are 1 or 2 shops in Sydney that do this on higher volume, gotta have cars like corvette, but it requires a whole new reversed dash, different steering box, pedal cluster, etc. For the performance, may as well get a factory LHD Supra or Porsche. Your choice.

Not shutting down Reatta, just giving info.

This person (a student) is talking daily driver. I suppose that means different things to different people with different means.

[Guest]

Re: Dave@moon's comments.

The first 20 years that I drove my car it was in a city of 600,000 people. Since moving to the west coast and living in a community of 300,000 I travel seven or eight times a year to places like Seattle and Portland and even to Fresno, Sacremento, San Francisco and Los Angeles once each in the last five years. I drove down to San Francisco on the Coast road and came back all the way on the interstate. I found the truck lane was totally comfortable travelling with my car at 55mph averaging 500 miles a day.

[elynnia]

hiya everyone,

Sorry I haven't been around for a while - I'm not really a forum person, so please bear with me.

As for the advice with a V8 - well, new law in NSW (the state I live in) dictates that unless you get an exemption, you cannot drive a V8 car for the first three years of driving where you have a 'provisional' license. Sounds rather restrictive, but then, V8's aren't the most common thing here...

As with later (70's and 80's) American cars that are still collectible - I'm honest not a fan of those. For one, I hear they drink a lot of petrol, and - they're just way to guyish in my design taste and perception. Not that I have problems with other people driving them

I've got some names of possibilities, and here they are:

VW Beetle/Karmann - Shouldn't be a problem, the Beetle's probably the most common antique car and the Karmann's a derivative of that...right?

Morris Minor - I've seen three of those in a day driving in my area - should be fine?

Oldsmobile/Plymouth 30's V6 sedans/coupes - Rather more extreme, how do they deal with daily driving?

Triumph TR3 - Personally my favourite vintage car, do they run well enough though?

MG A/B - Ok, there seems to be quite a lot of MGBs on the road relative to any other vintage car (minus the Beetle). I'm thinking that it's a possible daily driver? And - I personally like the MGA better - how does that compare?

Anyways, sorry about the lengthy post...

thanks a lot,

elynnia

[Guest ZondaC12]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You may want to consider a "collectible" or "vehicle of particular interest" car which is not new, yet not quite antique. Rare, stylish cars and sportscars of the later model class fit into this category. I am a collector of these and some antiques as well. Antique, here in the USA, is defined differently by each state, generally 20 - 25 years old. This places 1985 cars in the antique class.

Many unique, stylish, or sportscars have been produced since 1985, including:

Buick Grand National/Turbo 3.8 litre V6 - muscle car - 12 sec. stock! RARE!

Cadillac Allante 4.5 litre Performance V8 - Pinnfarin body, hard/soft top, WOW!

Corvette - not the best fuel economy but, it's a small island, Cutting your driving time in half affords half the fuel economy-so it's a wash, right? FAST!

The list of American cars goes on, and there are a few nice imports, too.

It seems you want a performance-oriented car, which is stylish in nature, and is the oly one in your town, state, or better yet-your nation.

My personal favourite of the modern collectibles is the Buick Reatta line, produced from 1988 'till 1991. They are based on the Rivieras of the same era, with the extremely reliable, powerful and fuel-efficient 3800 V6, with a 4-speed automatic. City MPG @25/27, Hiway MPG 30/33. These 2-seaters were overlooked by a market which wanted trucks, and were dropped by GM to build more trucks for that market. In the last year produced, less than 2500 cars were released, with only 196 of the convertibles hitting the road. Gm execs were "given" 46 of these cars, making only 150 available to the public. They are among the most rare lines of cars since the 1959 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, with only 101 cars. Buick pulled out all the stops when building these cars, even designating a plant solely for their "hand built" high-tech personal luxury cars. Decades of Buick style, quality and engineering are all evident in every inch of these beauties. They are the only 2-seater sportscar Buick has ever produced, and among the few "Hand built" cars made in the USA.

Each car's owners' manual includes a "technician's log" with the signatures of the SIX people who built the car.

There is a Buick Reatta Division of the Buick Club of America (BCA), and a discussion forum on this site which can give you more info on these unique sportscars.

There is also a BCA Buy/Sell forum, where I have listed my collection of fine automobiles, Reattae in particular, for sale. I'll attach a photo here of our 1991 Reatta Convertible, more are posted on my BCA Buy/Sell thread entitled

"FS 88-91 Reatta coupes,convertibles show winning cars!!", where you will find honest descriptions as well.

Check it out, then check if any exist near you. You could spend less than new, and have the only one around! The '59 Eldo ragtops sell in the 6-figure range, so Reattae are "value-driven" collectibles at this time. Once their desirability rises, the prices will soar due to their extreme rarity. </div></div>

WOOOOOOWWWW!!!!!

that was very enlightening. i figured they just had a division on this forum for them because they were a sports car or something. i found a picture of one and thought "wow cool thats a pretty neat lookin car" but i had NO IDEA of what was really put into them. i read things like "handbuilt" and "...names of the six people who built it..." etc and how rare the convertibles are.

were they very expensive sports cars brand new? or were they average priced vehicles? i just think this is really neat that its (well at least in my opinion) a rather normal (?) car of the last 15 years or so and there is in fact a lot that makes it very special indeed and it will be a real classic in the future and sought after. i always hear my relatives, and my friends relatives and my neighbors and stuff, if we get into a conversation about cars (if i mention my buick to them or something) say "boy if only we knew then what we know now. we woulda hung onto those cars" and its also kinda neat that some people who "happen to own" them now, at least if they find out from places like this forum, DO know right now to hang onto them and take care of them

just seems pretty neat to me

[Dave@Moon]

elynnia,

I have a TR6, and am well versed in British cars. The TR3 and MGA rank among my very favorites of all time, however as daily transportation they had severe limitations when new and are not any better now. Economy is fine for both, and performance shouldn't be a problem (especially for the TR3). However both cars have side curtains and a roof that needs to be assembled, hardly ideal even in a relatively dry area like New South Wales. And forget <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> security, if you can unsnap your jeans you can break into one of these cars.

The MGB had roll-up windows and after (I believe) 1966 had a folding roof. This is a major improvement, but the roof is still pretty leaky and there's very little improvement in security. Also be advised that all of these sports cars were marketed as "Hairy Cested Man's Cars". They're not easy (physically) to drive. The Triumph clutch pedal in particular is among the heaviest ever made, comparable to to many 1920's cars. If you're going to be regularly sitting in stop and go traffic for any amount of time they'll all be quite tiring.

The Morris is a robust car, but doesn't perform in the same class as the MG and TR. I'm not sure how it drives, but as a sedan it's as waterproof and secure as most cars it's age.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Most important</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">ALL</span> of these British cars were built for a special type of owner. They require a great deal more attention than typical road-going cars, even cars of the same era. You really have to enjoy working on them to enjoy owning them. <span style="font-style: italic">And you <span style="font-weight: bold">will</span> work on them!</span>

1930's Olds and 1930's Plymouths both have among the most robust 6 cylinder engines extant. The Plymouth engine in particular (among several 1940's owners I've known) has been known to exceed 200K miles regularly. Don't even think about trying to get a replacement bumper or fender when someone uses your car to learn how to park nest to something. Other psrts may be tough to get as well.

The VW Karmann (known as the Karmann-Ghia in the U.S.) is mechanically identical to the ubiquitous Beetle. You can't get any easier to work on or buy parts for it, and it'll take abuse <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> better than all of the cars above. It is a convertible, so the security isse is still there. The body is notoriously rust prone, so have it inspected carefully before trusting it <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> be sure to maintain it <span style="font-weight: bold">well</span>. Also it's slightly heavier than a bug body, so it's even <span style="font-style: italic">slower</span> than a regular VW (which is <span style="font-style: italic">S-L-O-W</span>).

If I had to live with one of these picks, I'd go with the VW. However it might be a good idea to stick with a Beetle first for practical reasons.

[elynnia]

hiya,

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also be advised that all of these sports cars were marketed as "Hairy Cested Man's Cars". They're not easy (physically) to drive. The Triumph clutch pedal in particular is among the heaviest ever made, comparable to to many 1920's cars. If you're going to be regularly sitting in stop and go traffic for any amount of time they'll all be quite tiring.</div></div>

That marks out the MG and TR basically...by the way, if they were marketed as such...what did the average university girl drive back in the 50's-60's?

Also, nice to hear that the Oldsmobile and Plymouth engines are durable - but how do the actual cars perform? I don't need something that goes faster than a speeding bullet, but is decent in moderate traffic...

Just confirming, all Beetles and Karmanns (minus the hotrodded ones...>_<) are Beetles and Karmanns, right?

Finally - this is a slightly later car, but...how is the Citroen DS as a daily driver?

thanks,

elynnia

[nearchoclatetown]

Elynnia, I'm glad to hear a younger person is actually interested in driving an antique car as a daily driver. As a long time VW fan I would absolutely recommend the Karmann Ghia. Try the website Samba.com, it's the best aircooled VW site going, full of parts, cars , and info. I like the styling of the pre'59s, but they are quite expensive. Perhaps the mid 60's would be closer to a student's budget. An original car should have a 40 horse power engine up to '65, later years had a little more HP. You may even look into what is called a Type 3 Ghia, very unussual, kind of ugly, kind of cute. Their is a niche market, as not everyone likes them, can be bought quite resonible in very good condition.

[Tom M]

nearchoclatetown,

Is Samba.com the right site?

It takes me to a Islamic banking site

[Guest BillP]

Hold on here. I have an MGB I drive all summer every summer. I know something of the original advertising of these cars as I have a lot of old sales literature. I don't know where Moon gets his opinion. I had a girlfriend in 1966 who bought a brand new MGB and drove it all over and loved it, she was maybe 5'5" tall and 110 pounds, and she had no problem driving it.

My car has been totally restored and is easy to maintain, is fast, fun and I've had no, zero problems with it. I've driven it about 20,000 miles since restoration from a rusted out 100,000 mile hulk. It is very easy to drive. Of all my cars, it is the one I show my kids how to drive standard trans on.

I had an MGA in the US Navy about 35 years ago and drove the snot out it. It was a very good car and I took care of it myself. My buddy had a 1600 Porsche coupe and we raced up and down the coast of California, the two cars were well matched. I now have a Porsche coupe, model 356C. Totally restored, very good, reliable car.

The point is, if you get an old sports car, be advised it has probably been beaten hard and maintained poorly. If you want to rely on it, you'll need to put a lot of sweat and/or money into it to make it reliable.

[Joe_Materasso]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">hiya,

Finally - this is a slightly later car, but...how is the Citroen DS as a daily driver?

thanks,

elynnia </div></div>

ABSOLUTELY!

despite its inaccurate reputation, the CITROEN DS and ID series are robust cars with one very BIG caveat - you must find one that has either been properly maintained, or restored. and you must be willing to keep them maintained, which is not all that difficult if you find one thats in good repair. you can gat a fantastic ID 19 or even DS 21 for under 15K. the desirable models are the 72 and up as the problems with a/c was finally cured in 72. The CITROEN DS is easily one of the most distinguished cars on the road today; not to mention its many innovations; know of any other cars that can drive on three wheels? you might also consider the CITROEN 2CV, which is much easier to maintain, and had all the uniqueness of the DS with a little extra charm, but is much cheaper and easier to maintain.

remember -

[color:\\"blue\\"] <span style="font-weight: bold"> NOBODY BUILDS CARS LIKE THE FRENCH - ESPECIALLY FROM THE 1930'S! .... </span>

[Guest sixpack2639]

Tom, the web site you're looking for is www.thesamba.com . Carl

[26pack]

Although they're a bit later in time, you may want to consider a Japanese sports car from the 70's. Something like a 240Z or a Mazda RX-7. Very reliable. Or, you can do what I did. Buy a Miata. I call mine an MG that works.

[Tom M]

Carl,

Much better. I can read it

Thanks

[Mike Cullen]

From my memory, most females attending university in the 50s and 60s rarely drove their own cars. Most rode with a boyfriend, used a bicycle or public transportation. Those who did drive, other than the well off who's parents bought them new high cost sports cars, drove econoboxes of the day. Nash Met, VW Beetle, Simca, Rambler, nova, falcon, 6 cylinder mustang, camaro, firebird, etc. or Mom and Dad's old car.

Another possibility is the Aussie equivalent of the Ford Maverick, a 69 or 70 model with a 200 cu in I-6 and a manual transmission can be a very reliable car and fairly economical too. They generally can be had for a song, and are amenable to a V8 conversion in the future.

I always told my kid that the ideal car for him would be a '72 Oldsmobile 4 door with a 455 cu in engine. Big, safe, room for 6-8 young people, not desireable as a theft target and horrible gas mileage, so he wont drive too much or take long trips! (funny, he now drives a new Hyundai, the smallest one they make and loves it)

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...what did the average university girl drive back in the 50's-60's? </div></div>

That was a <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> different era. See the movie <span style="font-style: italic">Kinsey</span> to get an idea of what it was like to be a "university girl" back then. I remember my father only hesitently teaching my mother how to drive when I was a kid in the early 1960's because "she had to". Even in the 1970's a girl still in school with her own car was an extreme rarity.

Life is better today in many ways.

I think maybe the closest you could come to a cute "girl's car" from that era might be the Nash Metropolitan (built in England by Austin as a "captive import" for American Motors [Rambler] in the U.S.). They're quite sturdy but very small cars with simple, easy to repair systems, great economy, and reasonable parts availability. I wouldn't even be able to venture a guess if any are available down under.

As far as: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> all Beetles and Karmanns (minus the hotrodded ones...>_<) are Beetles and Karmanns, right?

</div></div>

...there are rare exceptions like Hebmuller convertible Beetles and nearchocolatetown's Type 3 Karmann, but they are quite rare and valuable as VW's go. A good place to start an investigation of the possibilities is theVintage Volkswagen Club of America. They have an especially complete links page to help you.

The only thing I know about Citroens is that there parts are very hard to find and very expensive here in the states. In your area it might be a very different story.

[Joe_Materasso]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The only thing I know about Citroens is that there parts are very hard to find and very expensive here in the states. In your area it might be a very different story. </div></div>

Oh no my friend, like any orphan car, once you get in "the network" its not much more difficult than sourcing parts for your mgb or sunbeam alpine ... i speak from my experience with french cars in general over the years - many considered "untouchable" due to their Perceived rarity - ask the king midget or crosley or renault or franklin or D-B or cortina-lotus or morgan owner etc., if its worth the "bother" to search a bit ,,,

[elynnia]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold on here. I have an MGB I drive all summer every summer. I know something of the original advertising of these cars as I have a lot of old sales literature. I don't know where Moon gets his opinion. I had a girlfriend in 1966 who bought a brand new MGB and drove it all over and loved it, she was maybe 5'5" tall and 110 pounds, and she had no problem driving it.

My car has been totally restored and is easy to maintain, is fast, fun and I've had no, zero problems with it. I've driven it about 20,000 miles since restoration from a rusted out 100,000 mile hulk. It is very easy to drive. Of all my cars, it is the one I show my kids how to drive standard trans on.

I had an MGA in the US Navy about 35 years ago and drove the snot out it. It was a very good car and I took care of it myself. My buddy had a 1600 Porsche coupe and we raced up and down the coast of California, the two cars were well matched. I now have a Porsche coupe, model 356C. Totally restored, very good, reliable car.

The point is, if you get an old sports car, be advised it has probably been beaten hard and maintained poorly. If you want to rely on it, you'll need to put a lot of sweat and/or money into it to make it reliable. </div></div>

Interesting. I suppose that I shouldn't take the first opinion that comes to me... Does what Dave@Moon said about the TR3 clutch hold true for all TR3s or just his one? =p

Also, the VW Karmann Ghia is seeming like a good option, along with the Citroen...(by the way, I&m not really a fan of the 2CV - but I love the DS and it&s "spaceship" look)

Does anyone have info about those 30's v6 Olds/Plymouth sedans and coupes?

thanks,

elynnia

[ply33]

For what it is worth, my 1933 Plymouth was my only car for a while in the 1970s. I picked up a 1957 36hp oval window VW Beetle after a while and between the two of them had no need of a modern car.

Pluses and minuses for both as daily drivers.

The 1930s Plymouths were "full sized" cars with long wheel bases. In city traffic this is not a good thing (no power steering either). The Beetle could zip in and out of places the Plymouth had to be coaxed through.

Both were pretty good in the snow. But I don't think that is an issue in Sydney.

Gas mileage in the Plymouth expect about 15 Miles/US Gallon. When ever the VW dropped below 28 Miles/US gallon I figured it was time to tune it up. Gas prices are going no where but up, so that might be a consideration.

Body and trim items for older Plymouths can be an issue, those are easy for a VW.

The acceleration was about the same for both. A later 40 HP VW would beat both however. On braking, the VW was better.

Given that you are talking daily driving in an urban environment, I would suggest that a VW would be a more practical car. Easier to navigate the urban environment, easier to get parts to fix "fender (wing) bender" accidents. Better gas mileage. And if you get a newer one it should already be 12v so you can run your modern accessories (lap top/cell phone charger, etc.).

In either case, it may take some time to get a "new to you" vintage car into good enough mechanical shape that you can rely on it for daily transportation. You should either plan on becoming a pretty good mechanic or find one local to you that you can trust.

By the way, at least in North America, Plymouth never had a V6 in the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s or 1950s. Not too sure about the 1960s, but I doubt then either. From 1933 through the early 1950s the L-head (also called flathead) 6 was the only option. Displacement and power varied over the years but basically it was the same engine from 1933 through 1959. V8 engines were added to the line in the mid 1950s.

I know very little about GM products, but it would surprise me if Oldsmobile had a V type engine in the 1930s either. Over head valves for Chevrolet and Buick, V type engines for Cadillac. But I thought Oldsmobiles were typically L-head engines also.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I had a girlfriend in 1966 who bought a brand new MGB and drove it all over and loved it, she was maybe 5'5" tall and 110 pounds, and she had no problem driving it. </div></div>

Comments like this have too many variables to accept on face value. I've known 110 lb. competitive gymnists and 110 lb. churchmouse librarians. Even more problematic is that many people assume everyone's driving experience is more or less the same. It isn't even close in many cases. My '60 Falcon was a joy in rural commutes in Iowa, but in an urban environment was totally unacceptable. The MGB would be an identical situation, <span style="font-style: italic">especially</span> if rush hour traffic jams are expected. Therefore there is no susbstitute for a test drive.

Really only you reasonable determine what is best/acceptable/tolerable/unacceptable/inappropriate for yourself.

There were effectively no V6 engined vehicles made until GMC trucks of the early 1960's GMC trucks and Buick Special. With only rare/exotic exceptions all 6 cylinder engines before that are inline.

[elynnia]

hiya,

sorry about the miswording - I meant 6-cylinder, not V6 when I mentioned it before.

How big actually is a 'full sized' Olds/Plymouth, when compared to something like a Honda Accord (you have those in the US, you't you) in terms of size? I also know of 2-seater 30's Plymouths which have the same frintend as their bigger equivalents but seem shorter, would they be more practical?

I'd go out to have a test drive and a look if time permitted, but quite a few older cars are located outside the city area...although, in 2 months or so I'd have more time...

anyhow, thanks,

elynnia

[ply33]

I think the shortest wheel base for the 1930s 6 cylinder Plymouth would be 108 inches (2.74 meters) with an overall length a meter or so longer. That would be for a 1933 Standard 6. Later cars were generally 112 inch to 114 inch (2.9 meter) wheel base with the overall length perhaps another meter longer. In that day most body styles shared the same frame and were the same length. The exception would be limited production things like 7 passenger sedans which would have longer than standard frames. Your coupe and convertibles share the same frame as the regular sedans and have the same overall length. Since they have lighter bodies they will be a little more sporty in their performance.

Generally your most economical/practical automobile is one you buy that is 2 to 4 years old that you then drive until repairs are no longer economical, say 10 or 15 years. Since you are not looking for that, I would think that one of the biggest considerations is how much you like it both for looks and how it drives. I'd suggest that you hook up with a local vintage car club or two and see if you can't get some first hand experience with each of the cars that you currently fancy.

[Guest bkazmer]

Having somehow driven most of these options, I guess I'll put my $.02 in. (By the way Lancia for one used V6's for a long time before GMC)

The type of car is one thing to settle, then which car(s) within the type.

In a late 30's car, the Mopars are good designs for the time in having insert bearings, valve seats, hydraulic brakes, independent fromt suspension - the mechanical parts have good availability since the engine was used for many years with little change. I drove a '41 Plymouth as an in-city daily driver for a while, and another poster uses a 41 DeSoto. They handle like a car of the era. They are slow, and maximum sustained speed is probably around 55 mph.

Beetles, Karmann's (there is a coupe as well as convertible)are a much more modern option, with good parts availability. Not very distinctive as they are still common. Also slow.

2CV - unless you are in love with the funky looks , I can't see it. People moved up to a beetle from one of these. Amusing to drive - once.

DS ( or CX) - I agree a better car than its reputation, but the hydraulic system is complex and expensive to repair. (See also Jaguar for cheap to buy, expensive to run). There is the SM if you want to dive in with both feet.

"modern" sports cars. Attractive option if you like this type, as the driving is much better. British have good parts availability but tedious top mechanisms and Lucas electronics. I don't think the clutch effort is that big a deal, and many have hydraulic clutches. Perhaps an interesting option is the Alfa - better motor and tranny, easy to use top, but weak 2nd gear synchros. At some point in this category you do start to look at used first generation Miatas as a practical if less distinguished alternative. 240Z/Fairlady?

[elynnia]

Hallo,

It's been a while, but I have to say that I've found a car which I find is practical, unique and old enough. ^.^ I settled for a black 1961 Ford Falcon with the 2-speed Auto, which although someone mentioned was inadequate for American big-city driving, fits in well here in Sydney. It's a well-maintained, slightly upgraded and repainted specimen which is getting an engine rebuild right now, which should be (more) fabulous. Although it was originally marketed as a 'compact car', it's more of a full-size in Australian parking conditions, so I guess I'm lucky that I didn't get a 'proper' American car. The fuel economy is very reasonable as well - overall I'm very pleased with the choice. (and probably should be glad I didn't get a 1930's car!)

Thanks for everybody's advice!

elynnia

[Dave@Moon]

A very good choice! As mentioned I had a 1960 for a daily driver for 4 years in the 1980's. They can be very slow (mine was a 144 cu. in with the 2-speed--absolute top end speed was about 75 mph after a 2 mile run-up in perfect tune), and head winds will be a problem (I once drove in a 35 mph sustained wind which limited my unladen Falcon to 50 mph!), especially strong gusts. But it should be among the most robust, reliable, and repairable cars you mentioned.

That 2 speed transmission will become irksome after a while (I used to refer to the gearing as <span style="font-style: italic">too high</span> + <span style="font-style: italic">too low</span> ). Be wary of taxing that tranny (long high speed runs, heavy loads, excessive hot weather, etc.--especially in combination), as it was air cooled only (no fluid cooler) and can become overtaxed easily. A supplemental transmission cooler would be a <span style="font-weight: bold">very</span> good idea if you're planning any summer Sydney to Melbourne runs, especially if the cars heavily loaded!

Enjoy!

[stock_steve]

I second what nearchocolatetown said. With Ghias--as with any old VW, but Ghias especially since the body is essentially "handbuilt" and therefore more involved to repair--be aware of rust.

Also, it was my understanding that there is a pretty big & active antique VW scene there in Australia--with "Club VW Sydney" being a long-time, well-established organization--perhaps they might also be worth checking-in with for some local insights: http://www.clubvw.org.au/

Speaking of old VWs, Doug, did you see a new member posted some shots of a couple of super-kool oldies at the AACA Photo Forum - http://photos.aaca.org/

[ted sweet]

seems this may be one of the cause of the antique plate problems in virgina.

[elynnia]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They can be very slow (mine was a 144 cu. in with the 2-speed--absolute top end speed was about 75 mph after a 2 mile run-up in perfect tune), and head winds will be a problem (I once drove in a 35 mph sustained wind which limited my unladen Falcon to 50 mph!), especially strong gusts.</div></div>

Both luckily and annoyingly, Australia's speed limits are low compared to American Interstates and European Autobahns - the general speed limit on a Motorway is 120kph (75 mph), and there are additional speed limits on newbie drivers like me: Learner Drivers are limited to 80kph, first-year drivers to 90kph, and second/third year drivers too 100kph. Local/suburban limits are usually as slow as 50-60kph. Maybe it's good and maybe it's bad - but the general outcome is that many people break the speed limits here, so the police put up more speed cameras, and thus they receive more revenue.

As for the tranny cooler, it it a difficult/expensive task to put it on? Also, how dangerous is overheating in the AT?

Also, is it possible to retrofit the car with a heater and/or air-conditioner?

thanks,

elynnia

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As for the tranny cooler, it it a difficult/expensive task to put it on? Also, how dangerous is overheating in the AT?

Also, is it possible to retrofit the car with a heater and/or air-conditioner? </div></div>

Overheating the tranny will destroy it. You'll start to experience slippage between shifts and (eventually) the car will just lose forward gearing, at which point you'll be stuck. The danger I guess would depend on where you're stuck. The cost of repairing/replacing the tranny (which a wise person would do before they're stuck) would be the big problem.

The tranny cooler is an easy retrofit, but I think you'll need a kit specific to this car as it would include the necessary fittings needed to run the lines. There may be generic fittings that can be used. A shop in your area that specializes in antique Fords will know what is needed, and will probably have the supplies on hand.

Also it's quite likely a cooler has already been installed on your car.

There was FoMoCo a heater kit sold for these cars, as the heater was still an option then even here. It may be hard to find now, but trying to install a jerry-rigged homemade heater would be <span style="font-style: italic">much</span> harder.

Also you could get the unit and bits needed out of a junk yard/parts car, but any used heater core (the little radiator that is used to generate heat in the unit) should be at least reconditioned before installation. This is the most likely way you'll be able to install a heater.

I have seen a/c units tacked on to these older Ford 6's, but they're so weak to begin with that I can't imagine how the car would remain reasonably functional. The car would be dangerously slow to accelerate after a/c power losses. Also the strain on the engine would generate excess heat which sould require a major upgrade to the radiator and (probably) water pump. I'd recommend strongly against a/c in this car.

[Guest De Soto Frank]

Actually , fitting a tranny cooler to this car is very simple, and practically undetectable....

My method does involve replacing the radiator, which should probably be on your "to-do" list, if the radiator has never been replaced or re-cored.

At any rate, after living through Ford-O-Matic burn-out in my Mom's '62 Falcon Deluxe, I rebuilt the tranny myself, and was puzzled by a "U"-shaped tube on the outside of the tranny case, on the passenger side...I asked a couple of old-time tranny guys about this, and they replied that it was simply a by-pass tube used on cars without a tranny cooler.

I then asked if there was any reason why I couldn't connect a tranny cooler to those fittings, in place of the "u"-tube ? They said "Sure - that's what Ford did with the bigger cars."

Now, what to do for a tranny cooler ? Well, another Falcon in the family had just recieved a new Modine replacement radiator, all of which came with tranny coolers in the lower radiator tank...it was the only replacement radiator available at the time (1986). I swapped the A/T radiator into Mom's car, made-up some steel cooler lines, and hooked it all up.

Mom put another 90,000 miles on that car with no more trouble from the Dog-O-Matic.

So, if you get a '63-'66 Falcon (or Mustang) radiator with the tranny cooler in the lower tank, all you have to do is fabricate some steel lines to connect the tranny, and voila!

Or, you could get an aftermarket tranny cooler kit that mounts in front of the radiator.

I would not recommend A/C on a 144 cid engine...there's just not enough power available. If you want to go that route, find a 200 cid Falcon/Mustang engine (same block) and drop that in there, and find an "underdash" A/C set-up...

My own Falcon (a '62 Fordor) was one of the best cars I ever owned; 170 cid six and three-speed stick. Great little car ! It was "killed" by a '77 Buick Regal...

( Actually, I pounded the dents out and drove it another 10,000 miles after the Buick beating, but the front frame section was skewed and it kept eating tires, so I finally had to give up on it...)

Good luck with your Falcon !

[elynnia]

Hallo,

Thanks for all the info - I'll really consider the tranny cooler.

Another minor but seriously annoying issue I have is that the indicator switch/lever is excessively non-sticky. If I wanted to turn right, I'd turn the steering wheel right a quarter of a turn and the indicator would turn itself off. Since this can happen before the car actually turns the intersection, sometimes I have to hold the indicator switch with one hand while I turn the wheel with the other. Is this something that was "just like that" on these old Falcons, or is there a way to fix this?

thanks,

elynnia

[Guest De Soto Frank]

It's common with many older turn signal switches...it may possibly be just gummy inside - if someone can pull the steering wheel and clean and lubricate the switch that may help. Sometimes squirting some CRC, WD-40, or similar lubricant sray in through the hole where the turn-signal stem protrudes can free things up...

If it's a case of worn /broken parts, a new turnsignal switch may be in order.

Also, sometimes the steering wheel becomes "mis-aligned" when the car is pointed straight-ahead, and therefore the turn-signal cancel cam is operating when it "shouldn't".

When the car is driving straight ahead, the bottom spoke of the steering wheel should be pointed straight-down (to "6-o'clock"). Sometimes when front-ends get aligned repeatedly over the years or the suspension gets worn, the steering wheel no longer registers correctly when you're holding the car in a straight line. Also, sometimes if the steering wheel has been removed, sometimes they are re-installed "out of clock"... there should be an index mark stamped in the end of the steering shaft, which should match-up with a similar mark on the center hub of the steering wheel (in a perfect world).

Both my '62's had properly -functioning signal/cancel function.

Is your Falcon RHD ?

Good luck !