30's Packard body style and year desirability

[tbirdman]

Thanks to all of you for my previous question about a classic car as an investment. I have taken to heart the advice that I need to buy the car that moves me. However I want to make sure that I pick a car style and year that is desired by collectors in case I want to sell some day. I once owned a 55 chevy truck that was very nice but I had a hard time selling it because it was a long bed and most collectors (i.e. buyers) wanted a short bed. To me, I liked the long bed, but it proved to be an anchor when I went to sell. So I want to see what collectors think when they look at the different open body styles.

I want a convertible body (prefer 32-34 but could go 35-37)style and the Packard body styles are...

Convertible Victoria (2 door- 5 passengers),

Coupe Roadster (2 door, 2 passenger plus rumble seat)

Convertible Sedan (4 door, 5 passenger)

There are more body styles but these are the main ones I have seen for sale. Are any of these styles more desirable then others. For example a 2 door 57 Chevy is much more desirable than a 4 door.

I have found a very nice 1937 super eight convertible sedan. However even though the 37 Packards have the best ride compared to the earlier Packards because of IFS and hydraulic brakes, the Super Eight designation for that year is actual a Standard Eight motor as they did away with the Standard Eight model. How does that affect the value of the 37 Super Eight Packards to earlier years? Are the convertible sedans body style also valued by collectors?

I also have found a nice 35 V12 Coupe Roadster and I'm fully aware of the challenges a V12 poses thanks to your inputs.

[PelicanNotDuck]

Obviously, the open cars will have better resale, both in terms of value and how fast you can "unload" one. You are already aware you will pay more for the open car. I dont think there is a clear answer as to whether a two door open car or a four door one is going to either be worth more and/or easier to sell, because the "wants" & preferences of buyers are so subjective and "individual".

You are right about the "Super Eight" designation of the 1937-1939 model year - but remember, it was the SUPER Eight that was discontinued - the Standard Eight continued unchanged EXCEPT for Packard calling it a "Super" Eight.

Being a Packard fanatic, I dont think you could go wrong with ANY Packard product of that era. As the years go on, the interests of car buffs change -many authors now believe most of today's car buffs couldn't care less which series engine is under the hood - they only want to see "flash" and "style".

That is - assuming you get one that has been properly maintained. You are already aware of the problem with "restored" cars; as many have noted, the tendency in the hobby today is to just "show" the cars. Many restoration shops in the highly competitive restoration business recognize that taking even more of their customer's money to properly restore the car MECHANICALLY would be wasting their money, since they have no intention of enjoying the car as a mechanical object.

As some of us noted, your 'best bet' is to pay for an "expert" who is actually an "expert" on the particular model of Packard you want.

Dont reject the idea of a Packard Twelve just because of "maintainence" issues. Fact is, poor shop techniques can ruin ANY engine, whereas good shop techniques will let a Packard Twelve, or, for that matter, any old car do what it was designed to do, given its capabilities.

Bear in mind that in those years, Packard EARNED its reputation for being a quality product worth the money. The much more expensive Packard Twelves DELIVERED on their promise of being a good performer for the money. Take a good look at a cross section drawing of the Packard Twelve and the eight cyl. Packards - you will see some remarkable advances in the Twelve's desigh, including a MUCH shorter stroke, a "wedge-shape" or "squish" combustion chamber, and vastly improved "breathing". Thus the Packard Twelve is not only nearly two hundred cubic inches larger than the "Super" (meaning 320 cu in. Stnard Eight) but also is far more powerful than the mere difference in engine size would indicate.

You get what you pay for...well..that is...IF you can get the advice of a COMPETENT pre buy inspection !

I am sure that ANY well maintained Packard will give you a tremendous amount of satisfaction, but it does worry me that you think old cars are a investment. They can be - but we are in constantly changing times. Each passing of the years brings in new car buffs, who seem to be primarily interested in the cars THEY can relate to. I again STRONGLY recommend you re-listen to Chuck Conrad's excellent advice in his earlier "post" about buying collector cars.

Best Of Luck !

[tbirdman]

You are right on the investment part. I didn't make myself clear on that subject...I need to to buy a classic car because I want to and don't think about an investment.

The 37 I have located is owned by a person who is considered very knowledgable about Packards inthis area. If I got the car from him, I would be assured it was a very sound car and had been very well maintained. He does drive his cars.

Other than the asking price being steep, I was concerned about the desirability of the 37 Packard vs the earlier years along with the body style.

[K8096]

"Dont reject the idea of a Packard Twelve just because of "maintainence" issues. Fact is, poor shop techniques can ruin ANY engine, whereas good shop techniques will let a Packard Twelve, or, for that matter, any old car do what it was designed to do, given its capabilities."

You are so correct my friend from the deserts of Arizona. The engine on our Packard Twelve was rebuilt in 1949 by a Packard dealership & it still runs great, better than most restored ones today in my humble opinion. I know one guy who paid a ton of money to have a so called expert rebuild the engine of his Twelve, and the same shop had to re do things on it TWICE before they got it right. This was one of those high cost, high ego shops that claimed they knew everything.

[tbirdman]

So the $64K question is how do you know when a Twelve has been built correctly. If I do buy this car, I will be getting someone who knows about Twelve to look at it but for my ebnefit and knowledge...a lot of the ads I have seen for cars with Twelve in them indicated whisper quiet which doesn't tell half the story. Other than being smooth running at all speeds, no leaks, non smoking and the ability not to overheat when at slow speed in "parade" mode, and restarting when hot is there anything else I can look for.

[West Peterson]

Where are you located? Maybe we can put you into touch with a Packard 12 expert in your area to help you look at it. It sure would be worth a couple hundred bucks to have an expert appraising its condition.

Of course, that doesn't guarantee you wont have problems down the road. I know someone who always tries to buy a car with the assumption that somewhere down the line he'll have to do an engine job, and offers a price accordingly. This way, he sometimes loses out because his offer is so low, but it's better than paying retail then having to do the engine. He gets enough cars this way that if the seller doesn't accept his offer, he knows there are a ton of other cars out there that are available.

If, however, you are looking for a specific year, make, model AND body style, your offerings become a lot more limited, and you end up not wanting to walk away from a deal if the price is not just right.

[PelicanNotDuck]

As Wes notes, the asking price should reflect the condition of the engine, which of course means WHO did what work on it. Bear in mind that for the 1935 model year, Packard introduced copper-lead "insert" type bearings, which (when properly set up) eliminated the infamous connecting rod failure problem inherent up to that time. You will find that when many pre-1935 Packards (both eights and twelves) had major engine work in the days when these were just used cars) they were re-fitted with the '35 thru '39 cranks and rods.

Except for applications involving very low rpm low power early engines such as a "Model T" , I cannot imagine a responsible engine shop doing a "poured babbit" repair on a Packard connecting rod.

Let me suggest what I would do if I were thinking of buying a high dollar 1930's era Packard AND the seller was NOT willing to take off oh, say $8,000 or so for a proper engine re-build). It only takes a few minutes to "drop" that beauitful precision cast aluminum oil pan on either the eights or the twelves. (if someone hasnt gooped up the pan gasket with Permatex, you can just re-use it with no leaks !). With the pan down, you can pull the "cap" off a connecting rod and see if it has babbit or "modern" (meaning 1935 style or newer) connecting rod bearings. Will also give you an opportunity to "mike" the crankshaft - sadly, more than once I have seen a fresh bearing job on a "out of round" crank-pin, which virtually guarantees engine failure.

You mentioned in previous "posts" that you would also like to put some DRIVING miles on your purchase. THREE CHEERS FOR YOU ! I promise you, no matter what series or year of Packard that you buy, (and again, assuming a properly maintained one) you will find it a delight to drive...with ONE reservation.

Bear in mind that prior to World War Two, road speeds were MUCH lower than today. You go even further back in time, to when the eights and twelves were designed, the idea of crusing at 50 mph or higher for any length of time simply did not figure as an engineering design criteria. Buyers wanted, expected, and engineers delivered cars that were "geared" for those driving conditions.

You do not want to be a hazzard driving on modern roads, and you dont want the older long-stroke engines to be screaming away at higher piston speeds at 55 mph, than a modern engine would be doing at over 120 mph. There is a simple answer. HIGH GEARING. Pre war Packards can be "re-geared" easily and relatively inexpensively so that the can be driven at today's speeds without injury to the engine. There are "bolt on" over-drives, and there are gear sets for the rear axle. At 60-65mph people will still be going by you like you are standing still, but you AND your car will enjoy your driving far more than if your engine is screaming away with the "stock" final drive ratio.

GOOD LUCK !

[tbirdman]

The 37 Super 8 Packard is with a local Packard expert so I do feel comfortable buying that car from him. His cars are maintained very well. It does have overdrive which is a plus. So I need to wrestle with the body style and motor size...maybe it doesn't make a difference. However I would think a coupe roadster would be more flash than a convertible sedan with the added sizzle of the V12 under the hood.

I'm a member of Packards International and did have a member come with me to look at the 34 V12 I looked at. This 35 V12 is located in the midwest and I'm in Oregon. I was defintely going to either bring my local expert or get someone closer to the car location to look at it. I'm getting a video tape made of the car now.

If I do look at the car closer, I will make sure I get a Packard expert recommendation from you all. A few hundred can save a lot.

Now I was told a rebuild on a V12 was about $30K. Your $8K figure was a lot less.

[Tom M]

tbirdman,

Here is one for sale Year: 1935 Model: 1207 CONVERTIBLE ROADSTER

To Steep for my pocket...

[West Peterson]

Historically, the 1935 models have been the least desirable of the 1930s vintage Classic Packards, followed by the 1936. That may have changed with time, I don't know, but you might want to keep that in mind. And yes, the coupe-roadster is more desirable than the convertible sedan (and the convertible victoria, for that matter). The difference in desirability between a coupe-roadster and a phaeton is about the same. Probably the least desirable of the open body styles is the touring (like a phaeton, but usually has jump seats and the back seat is set further back). Some convertible sedans have a division window and some don't. I don't know which is more desirable, it might be a personal preference.

Also, $8 g's won't go very far on a V12 engine rebuild, and it probably wouldn't cover the whole cost to rebuild an 8 either. I'd say $10-12 for an 8, and you're about on the mark at $30 for a quality 12 rebuild.

[K8096]

You have to realize what you're paying for if you're paying 30K for an engine rebuilt. Think about it. Most shops charge around $50 per hour labor plus parts. If you took a Packard Twelve to one of these shops, it would probably take them one day to remove the hood, radiator shell, radiator, front bumper, and headlights in a careful manner as to not scratch the paint assuming your car was already "restored." Thats $50 times 8 hours = $400. What do have to show for that $400? Nothing!!! And it will take twice as long to put those parts back on carefully. When I redo an engine, I take the car apart myself, take all of the engine accessories off myself, take the engine out myself, and then give the long block to a reputable rebuilder. When I get it back, I put all the accessories back on myself, and reassemble the car myself. I think the 8 - 10K figure refers to redoing the engine in this fashion. A lot of restorers restore things that don't need to be restored. If the carburator was nicely detailed and functioned properly, why rebuild it again? Most restorations shop, however, will charge you a days labor plus the cost of the kit for this. I think the 30K rebuilt would be including things like rechroming or renickeling everything, reporcelinizing the manifolds, recoring the radiator, ect, ect. If you have a ran that ran good and then developed a knock, there is no need to go over all of these other systems again. Just redo the long block. This is how people get buried in cars & have way more money invested in them that they are worth. Don't fall into this trap.

Wes is right about 1935 being the least desirable year, and that's followed by 1938 & 1939. Why you may ask? The reason is 1935 the radiator shell was vertical and the front of the cars look a little awkward. Why 1938 & 1939? because Packard changed the fender line in 1938 & the front of the cars look more "bulbous." 1936 isn't bad, but the there were many changes in 1937. Hydraulic brakes, independent front suspension, disc wheels, are among the major changes. 1936 is a neat year though, I happen to like the bumpers with the shock dampeners on the ends of them. I will mention this though. You almost never see a 1937 Twelve convertible coupe for sale. There are about 25 in existence, give or take a few, and most have been with their owners for many years. 1932 - 1934 Packard Twelve open cars are in a price range all their own as I'm sure you have already found out.

[tbirdman]

Great info. That V12 35 link was the car I was looking at. I also don't like the 38/39 as much because of the fenders. I was not aware of the 35 dislikes. The 37 Super 8 convertible sedan does have a roll up divider windshield. My preference would be a Super 8 32-34 coupe roadster but the 37 is a very nice 98 point car. I don't need the V12 and the additional $$$ to purchase. I have located as I mentioned before a 32 903 coupe roadster. It's nice low milage car but I could see myself dumping more money in to rechrome some items and reupholster the seats and add overdrive. I'm also not crazy for the paint scheme. Teh chase continues. Thanks for the inputs.

[West Peterson]

My first choice would be the 1932 903 coupe roadster, and I'm not sure I'd care what color it was. In fact, I think I'd even choose a standard eight coupe roadster from 1932 over the 1937 super eight convertible sedan.

1932, IMHO, is the best year stylingwise, as I prefer the open fenders. I would enjoy the car as long as i could with the bad color choice, and then, as time and funds could afford, paint it a more desirable color. (BTW, what color is the 903 that you found?)

My step-father has a 1937 Twelve coupe-roadster, and K8096 is right, they hardly ever show up in the classifieds. A mere phone call or two is all that is needed to send one on to the next owner. The convertible sedans, however, seem to show up quite often. In fact, I know of at least two 1937 Twelve convertible sedans for sale at the present time, and two 1937 Twelve convertible victorias. The first victoria is priced at $185,000 for a 95-plus point car with an engine built by, IMO, THE best twelve builder in the world. The other victoria is about 85 points and the asking price is $125,000 (rod knock developing). One of the convertible sedans is a National Award-winning car, concours-perfect, and he's asking $285,000. It's been for sale for about a year, now, and I don't believe he's had any serious bites at that price. The other convertible sedan could be bought for about $50,000, but it's all apart and many parts may be missing. That may include a freshly rebuilt engine, though, so the price isn't totally out of line.

[K8096]

The maroon 1937 Twelve convertible sedan was sold, but I don't what it went for. I'll tell ya, the 1935 - 1939 convertible victorias aren't that desirable in my opinion. People rarely put the top down on them, but when the top is up, you cant see anything out of the back of them so they're a pain to drive. 1935 -1939 convertible victorias come up for sale all the time, there isn't a "demand" for them. IMHO, 185K for a perfect victoria is way too much. They may have close to that in restoring it, with labor costs, but that doesn't mean it's really worth that. I'd almost rather have a 2 passanger coupe or a club sedan than a convertible victoria. But that's just me. West, is the convertible sedan for 50K you know of the one located is the same building as your office? I sold that guy some parts, but I thought he was going to keep that car.

[West Peterson]

Yes, the car in the museum.

I had to remove myself from the museum, so I'm not sure what the current situation is with that car. The Doctor that was going to buy it has an office just down the street from my new office, but I left before the "deal" was made, so I didn't know if he actually completed it (the deal). There have been a lot of problems with the museum this summer, and I assumed that the Doctor would have walked away until things smoothed out. I'll have to go over there and find out how things are going.

I forgot about the maroon convertible sedan that was recently available. Are you talking about David Miller's car? I was referring to the grey one in Arizona ($285,000).

The convertible victorias are indeed hard to drive with the top up. The one available for $185,000 is not "perfect," but very nice. It is Tom Lester's car, and mechanically perfect (engine, drivetrain, front end and steering).

[K8096]

Yes, Miller's car was the maroon one. I think it sold earlier this summer. I've never saw the grey one. Sounds pretty

[tbirdman]

The 32 903 is a florentine color. Paint is in great shape though. I would put the car at about 2-. A lot of the chrome is original in very presentable shape. The odometer reads 42K miles which may be correct. The asking price is 158K which I thought was high.

I am finding that 32-34 for sale are not that common.

[West Peterson]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 32 903 is a florentine color. </div></div>

What in heck is florentine!!! That one's not even in my dictionary. Though florin is in there as an Italian gold coin. Is the car gold? That's not terrible. At least it's not pink (or mint green )

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 32 903 is a florentine color. </div></div>

What in heck is florentine!!! That one's not even in my dictionary. Though florin is in there as an Italian gold coin. Is the car gold? That's not terrible. At least it's not pink (or mint green ) </div></div>

It's like a greenish brown. It's been a while since I've seen it so I forget exactly. It's not ugly but not my color choice. Do you think the asking price is reasonable $158K for the 903? given it's decent but not perfect condition?

[West Peterson]

Yeah, I think that's quite steep. It's hard to say without seeing the car, though. Color doesn't sound bad to me, but then I kind of like those earth-tone colors on that period of car.

[tbirdman]

Being new to this era of cars, it's hard me to determine price. I was estimating the car should be around $120-130K by trying to look at like sales. However there are few like sales around on these cars. A 32 903 was in the recent Hemmings issue. It was listed for for 92K and sold in lest than a week. The car needed some work like paint and upholstery. Being that it sold in less than a week, I would assume they got full price for it. Also at the recent Kruse Auburn auction it appears that a 43 Standard 8 roadster sold, but I don't the numbers for it yet.

[West Peterson]

Keep up the research. That's what professional appraisers do. In my opinion, it's okay to overpay for the right car, but you can't get the wrong car cheap enough. The 1932 903 is the right car.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 32 903 is a florentine color. </div></div>

What in heck is florentine!!! That one's not even in my dictionary. Though florin is in there as an Italian gold coin. Is the car gold? That's not terrible. At least it's not pink (or mint green ) </div></div>

West,

Do you mean mint green like this 903

[West Peterson]

As the Swedes like to say, "oof dah!"

But... it's still the right car.

Paint mine dark (including the grille), or earth tones, and slap a set of agressive-looking black sidewall tires on it and I'd be about as happy as a ... well... nevermind.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As the Swedes like to say, "oof dah!"

But... it's still the right car.

Paint mine dark (including the grille), or earth tones, and slap a set of agressive-looking black sidewall tires on it and I'd be about as happy as a ... well... nevermind.

</div></div>

West,

So what is your opinion of a 34 standard 8 dual cowl Phaeton. From what I understand dual cowl phaetons are desireable but that could be the dealers talking. I find every dealer ad claims that the Packard they are selling is the most desirable. This 1934 dual cowl phaeton can be had for a substantial discount off the asking price.

[K8096]

The dual cowl phaeton is considered by many to be the most desirable body on a Classic car. The roadster is right up there with it though. However, you do have to look at what chassis is under it. The only "knock" you could make on that car is that it's a Standard Eight and not a Super Eight. As our friend from Arizona mentioned earlier, the engine in that car is the smaller displacement engine that Packard then called the Super Eight 1937. The Super Eight is going to be a more desirable car because it has the larger engine, and would command a bit higher price, but please don't take this the wrong way. That's really a beautiful, desirable car, and looks to be properly done. It's not my place to say what I think it's worth, but I will throw this out at you. I think there are fewer people buying cars like this now. The people who remember them when they were new are almost all gone, and the number of people who remember them when they were cheap used cars in the 40's & early 50's are also slowly dwindling (this is very sad). It was these people who drove up the prices on cars like the one you are looking at in the 1980's & 1990's. I think (and this is just my opinion) that the market for fully restored 30's Classics over 100K is declining. The hot items now are muscle cars, as you've seen by the auction cateloges. In my opinion, and I could be totally wrong here, I'll say that if you paid, say, 130K for that car, and kept it in perfect condition for 10 or 15 years, keeping inflation in mind, if you sold it for 150k you'd be breaking even moneywise.

Or, you could look at it this way. I don't know if you've been to the CCCA website, but there is a neat article called "What's a Classic Worth." It tells you about the value of taking your kids for a ride, using the car in your daughters wedding, ect. You can't put a price on stuff like that. What you could do is buy the car, use it and enjoy it for however long you like, and then just try to get your original price back, and really you'd be coming out ahead because of all the fun you had. Who knows, the car may become a part of your family and you may never want to sell it! Good luck.

[tbirdman]

I agree that the Standard 8 from what I have found, even though it is a fine engine, does decrease a Packards desirability by collectors. Regarding muscle cars...I guess I'm at the age where I should be buying one. However I have no desire to have one and be one of the many owning one. I do own a 64 convertible T-Bird and the great thing about that car (besides what I consider it's beautiful lines", is it is not a common car you see every day like a Corvette, Camaro, Chevelle, Mustang etc. Unfortunately it doesn't have a hemi in it

I have always liked the big classics and have settled on wanting a Packard of the 30s. Now there are other large classic cars I could also enjoy, but I'm limiting myself on purpose so that I can learn all about the the one make I have chosen to make a wise buying decision.

I did read another article where even though muscles cars are going to the roof and other cars have stagnated, there will always be a demand for the large classics of the 30s. And as the article has said, what price can you put on fun that you have had.

[West Peterson]

K8096 is correct in that the dual-cowl is probably the most desirable. Which is probably why there are so many "fakes." Not many people faking them on the Standard Eight chassis, however. Most of the authentic Standard Eight Dual Cowls (as well as Standard Eight, or even Super Eight coupe roadsters) have been moved over to a more desirable chassis. Which is also the case on the Cadillac side of the aisle.

However, K8096's argument for Classics losing favor because "the people that remember them when new are getting to be fewer each year" doesn't really hold water by itself. Take a look at the older "Antiques." There's hardly a sole out there that remembers them when they were new, and those cars are thriving in desirability. While his statement may be true as a part of the big picture, it certainly can't be explained that easily. Things go in cycles, and I believe that is also part of it.

[tbirdman]

This dual cowl has been for sale for quite a while. It was high bid to $130K at a recent auction. The dealer also had a 34 Standard 8 roadster that had been for sale for awhile which sold for 90K at same auction. In both cases I think the standard 8 chassis reduces a lot the desirability of both of these cars. That's why I'm leaning towards the 903; longer chassis and bigger motor. Though I'm trying to gauge what the premium is for a super 8 roadster over a standard 8 as 158K seems high for the 903. However as you have said, until you see the cars in person, it's hard to tell. Also the dual cowl phaeton may have issues with me with space behind the steering wheel. I sat behind a 32 standard 8 phaeton and those guys were a lot skinnier in 1932

In regards to classics losing favor..they are definitely not booming like the muscle cars. However I think if you stick with the premium large classics, you won't get hurt by a sudden deflation of their values like I believe will happen with the muscle cars. (But who knows when ). But I'm buying for the real value which is the pleasure of owning a large classic will bring.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 32 903 is a florentine color. </div></div>

What in heck is florentine!!! That one's not even in my dictionary. Though florin is in there as an Italian gold coin. Is the car gold? That's not terrible. At least it's not pink (or mint green ) </div></div>

I believe this is the car except it now has metal side covers. It's been about 4 months since I've seen the car, but I believe this is the 1932 Packard 903 Coupe Roadster that I've been considering.

[Tom M]

Nice that is a sweet beautiful ride. Wish mine was in that shape.

[West Peterson]

Change the incorrect hood ornement, put some black tires on it, and have some fun. That car is gorgeous! Sweeter now that it has metal sidemount covers.

You've gotten about as much advice as I think there is available. Now getter done, and have some fun!

By the way, you won't need to put overdrive in that car. Maybe some 3.71 gears in the hind end, but overdrive you definately won't need.

[tbirdman]

Thanks, I guess I'm color blind or too blinded by the Ferrari Red on my T-Bird. It's nice to get opinions of others on color choices.

I'll let you know.

[tbirdman]

Well to end a saga of looking for a Packard, I have agreed in principal to buy the 1932 903 with the condition of a professional inspection. I appreciate all of the advice given to me on this subject.

[Tom M]

Like I posted before Sweet Awesome Beautiful ride. Congrats and good luck.