Tom Laferriere Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hi all,I recently bought a 1916 7 passenger touring with a 4 cyl. I bought the car knowing it wasnt running, but knowing it had compression in all four cyl. So I said, if it has compression, it has to run! Today I was preparing to see if the car was to start. I have it cranking no problem with the starter, but no go. I pulled the distributor cab to clean the points. I noticed the points were open so I decided to hand crank to watch and see the points open and close. <span style="font-weight: bold">THIS IS WHEN I NOTICED THE ROTOR WAS NOT TURNING</span> . I also noticed the waterpump not turning as I hand cranked the engine. I assume I should see the water pump and distributor turning as I hand crank. I think my heart went into my stomach, so I ran in the house and posted this! With that said, do I have a serious internal engine problem? Please give me the bad news. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />Thank you all for reading and I hope I explained this well. I appreciate your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Tom,It isn't good news but it may not be as bad as you think. I don't know how you knew it had compression in the first part of your post? If you ran a compression gauge reading on all four cylinders that read ok "probably" the cam was turning so the cam gear to crank connection (Gear or chain?) is ok. I would first pull off the lifter gallery cover plates and watch with someone cranking to see that the lifters indeed are moving up and down, if they are that proves the cam gear is moving probably correctly.(At least not stripped teeth)What then is possibly bad is the distributor driven gear that meshes with the camshaft drive gear (Broken teeth usually happen on the distributor driven gear which is replaceable) bad news here is there could be damage to the cam gear teeth also that would require heliarc repair and dressing with a precision grinder. Last year at Hershey I was looking for a distributor gear to fit a 1931 Buick 8 distributor I want to repair and sell. There were guys with cake pans full of gears, all unmarked, so you have to know the number of teeth, outside diameter and whether the teeth are pitched as left hand or right hand thread as in machine screw threads. Then you fish through dozens of gears looking for the right one. The killer was most are either 13, 14 or 15 teeth and at a glance they all look the same until you lay them end to end and see they are 1 tooth more or less in number. If you are lucky it could be just a sheared drive pin that holds the distributor driven gear to the distributor shaft (Drill it out and replace with a new pin). If you pull the distributor assembly loose you will know the whole story by visual observation. I don't have a 4 cylinder part manual with illustrations to confirm the distributor drive setup on your engine, maybe someone else does and could scan the images of distributor gaer drive parts and post them for you. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montrose Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Tom,I believe that you engine design is very similar to the Special 6 and Big 6, minus 2 cylinders. These motors used a distributor gear which was made out of a die cast material which is very prone to failure. This is driven off of a small gear mounted to the front of the cam gear. I know various replacements for these gears have been made over the years, I have brass distributor gears for my cars. The water pump is driven off of a much larger gear, which meshes with the camshaft gear. You did say that you had compression, so the cam gear should be intact. I believe that the cam gear and water pump shaft gear are both iron. It is possible that you have some broken teeth on the water pump gear, but possibly more likely is a broken keyway on the water pump shaft. Time to remove the water pump and distributor.Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917Studebaker Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I too have had two of these gears on the distributor fail on a pair of engines I have, they are made of a strange metal which does crack. I had some made myself ten years ago and can provide a pattern if it helps....BUT that water pump should be turning whatever... it is on a great big gear directly off the cam/crank train...I also have a 17 seven passenger and if soemone can help me with a pair of hood catches and some starter pawls I would be eternally grateful.I am in the UK but spend a week a month in New England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 Hello Stude8 and Joel,Thanks for taking the time to reply. Well, breaking news here. I mentioned that the car had compression for two reasons...(1) The seller assured me so prior to purchase, (2) my own experiences turning the engine indicated compression. Well, it turns out that the valve train is not working and I am not as good as I thought! Cyl #1 and #3 have compression only because the valves are closed. #2 and #4 do not. I pulled off the valve cover, cranked by hand, and guess what...no action in the valves. So, this would indicate the cam is not turning. What ever turns the generator gear is working. Thanks for leading me in the right direction.Now, it looks like I will have to pull off the radiator and the rest of the water pump and ?? to get to this problem. What will I be in for? Is there a key slot for the cam gear? I am hoping its not too bad. Am I in big trouble?Also, I have had conflicting info on whether this car should be positive or negative ground? Your thoughts?One more...a source for a fanbelt and new coolant hoses? They say Vulco??Thanks for taking the time again to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Hello Again Tom,Well the plot is thickening it seems. I did check my early file drawer again and I do have a 1917 Price List Of Parts which has photographic displays of various parts including the 4 cyl engines. I scanned some of them that may help but the files are too large to attach here. I reduced one to 77K so it would fit here but it may be too small to do you a lot good, send me your private email address and I'll send the full res images that way.That said, it sort of looks like what the other responders say, there is some kind of "Utility" shaft that is gear driven from crank or cam?? that probably has had a gear or woodruff key failure. I can xerox copy the relevant pages or just look up the part numbers but at this date it is not likely you will find anyone with parts identified by factory number this old. Obviously you will have to salvage any broken pieces as carefully as you can to help fabricate a reproduction piece. I am not aware of anyone reproducing the gears we are talking about here and demand will pretty low considering how few 4's are still running. Stay in touch. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Tom,I have just looked at the parts book again and like Joel commented it appears the 4 cyl engine shares many parts with the other 1916-18 6 cyl engines. In particular there are 3 gears shown, 1= Crank shaft gear 16705[24teeth 3-1/2" diam ?]; 2= Cam shaft gear 16726[50teeth 6" or 8" diam]; 3= Water pump drive gear 16878[16teeth 2-1/2" diam ?]. The tooth counts & diameters are as good as I can estimate from the small images. They are the same in ALL 4 and 6 cyl engines. So if you can find a 6 cyl organ donor you will be in good shape. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1917Studebaker Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 The fours and sixes are exactly the same, mine is a six. Even the bodies are interchangeable just set back (I think six inches) on a longer chassis for the two extra cylindersAssuming the bevel on the distributor and cam look OK this is a wierd situation for a car that had been running and needed 'just fuel' to get running again.A few years ago I had a new shaft made for the water pump because it leaked. I trailed the car to the next event, ran the car up & moved it into the holding area before the start and turned it off, A few minutes later returned and the whole engine was locked solid as it had seized in the bush going into the water pump as I had the tolerance a bit tight and did not pre-lube it enough. Despite attempts absolutely nothing would move, even rocking the car in gear, so I stripped the front off the car and removed the drive gear for the water pump and the impeller from the pump and completed the event using thermo-syphon for cooling without problem.I will check what ground my car is in the next few days, it's a while since I had a look under the seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 14, 2005 Author Share Posted March 14, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> send me your private email address and I'll send the full res images that way. </div></div>My email is tom@tomlaferriere.comThanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montrose Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Tom,Your findings are more along the lines of what I would expect you to find per our conversation, as now you are looking at a single failure versus the 2 independent failures that would be indicated if the cam was still turning. And yes, the cylinders with the closed valves will give you the "feeling" of compression. This failure may of been caused as a result of cranking the engine with a frozen cam, lifter, or valve or a frozen water pump shaft. Anyhow, you will need to open up the motor and take a look at the cam and crank gears, as you should find the failure here or with the keyways. And you will need to be certain that everything is "free".I am pretty certain that your car is positive ground. I believe this to be the case with all Studebaker 6 volt systems. Perhaps someone else can chime in here as well. Interestingly, I do have a 1917 Series 18 owners manual, and even though it does have an electrical scematic, no polarity is indicated.For the hoses, just measure the ID and you should be able to order a "stick" (typically 3 feet) at your local auto parts store. And you should be able to measure up and order a belt as well.Also, perhaps someone can verify whether or not the gears are common with the 1918-1924 Special and Big 6 cars, as there are a relatively large number of these around. I do have the parts books for these, but not for their predecessors.Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montrose Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 Tom,You can leave the car with me and I will get it running, but I make no guarantees as to its return,Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 Tom, I checked my National Service Data and your 1917 Stude is indeed positive ground. I had a '27 Big Six President and at one time had the front of the engine apart because of a stripped pot metal distributor gear. I used a 45 degree bevel gear from Boston gear and it worked fine. I had to mill the hub off the gear on te cam shaft, but all was well after that. If your four is like my big six, the cam gear runs off the crank gear and the generator is run off the cam also, but is a helical gear. I also beleive the water pump gear runs off the other side of the crank. It sounds like the crank gear is not spinning with the crank, since it would be unlikely that both the cam and the water pump gear would break at the same time. The gear is held on with a large key and two things come to mind. Either the crank gear is stripped (unlikely, since it is iron) or the key has broken and damaged the key way. either has the potential to be a big fix. Keep us posted.Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 15, 2005 Author Share Posted March 15, 2005 Well, I just got back in from the garage...I yet again put off the laundry and the cooking to determine my problem: <span style="font-weight: bold">Root Cause Determined Everyone!!</span> I got the radiator off and then removed the "top" of the timing cover to reveal the cam gear... <span style="font-weight: bold">WHICH IS BROKEN!</span> The cam gear is missing a chunk. Can't see it in the picture though. So now, I need a cam gear for a 1916 Studebaker 4cyl. I also have to figure out how to get the crank pully off. Suggestions are welcome. First I will have to get a deep impact socket of some kind to get the hand crank "thingy" off the pully. Then how does the pully come off?I also wondered what caused this problem to begin with. Is this a known weakness of this engine? So many questions!Thanks everyone here for the help.Who has a cam gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 15, 2005 Author Share Posted March 15, 2005 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tom,You can leave the car with me and I will get it running, but I make no guarantees as to its return,Joel </div></div>Joel, It might be heading over there...I will have to put LoJack on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 First, remove the crank handle nut. THis is the large nut that engages the crank on the front of the starter pulley. It is standard right hand thread. You may have to put the transmission in low or reverse to keep the crank from spinning. Next, remove the starter pulley, this is obvious once the crank nut is off. I think there are four standard bolts that hold it on. Then, remove the front cover and expose the cam gear. the small cap scres that goes through the distributor ger is all that holds it on. then a puller and you're set. Good luck......Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 I forgot to mention::: mark the cam gear and a corresponding spot on either the crank or on a bulkhead somewhere. Just in case the camshaft spins, you'll be able to relocate it in relationship to the crank.Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Once you determine EXACTLY the dimensions of the required gear, try Boston Gear. They have an AMAZING inventory of gears which they make (not pot metal, but real steel, bronze, etc.). Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 How about a website link, address or phone number for "Boston Gear", never heard of them. Thanks, Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Your local machine shop should have a catalog for Boston Gear.Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 Boston Gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 Still cant get that crank handle nut off. I will be bringing home a "persuasion bar" tonight and some mapp gas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 23, 2005 Author Share Posted March 23, 2005 Hello Again,I got everything off. There were three chunks of Cam gear sitting on top of the crank gear. The waterpump is frozen. I wonder if that is what happened. Someone tried to turn over the engine with a frozen waterpump or the waterpump froze while the car was running and broke the gear? I can spin the cam gear and watch the valves move. Thats a good thing.Thanks to all who are looking for a cam gear for me. I can see part # 726 on the gear! Thanks Stude 8! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted March 24, 2005 Author Share Posted March 24, 2005 Well, I need to ask these questions sooner or later, so I will ask sooner.1. If I cannot find an OEM gear, I will most likely be having one made. The question is, how do I time the cam to the crank? There will be no marks on the new gear. If I can find an OEM gear, are there marks? Whats the procedure? I did a lawn mower engine once...that was easy! Line up the marks!2. Should I just mentally prepare to make all my gaskets or is there a place to buy gaskets for this engine?All that have responded...all I can say is thanks!! I am not a mechanical type guy, but I am getting through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Typically, the timing gear and the crank gear will have alignment marks stamped in them. One wil have a single punch mark on the tooth and the other will have a single punch mark on the valley. Since both gears are keyed to the shaft, the rest is easy. You will have to mark the old gear with a mark that aligms with the key and then, if the cam alignment mark is on the missing part, make your own marks. If you have all of the pieces of the broken gear, keep them until you have the new one installed.Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted April 8, 2005 Author Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hello all,I wanted to take a moment and update everyone. I have found a Cam Gear! It came out of a 1920-25?? Big Six. I attached a pic. I paid $75 for a motor that was 10 miles from my house. The motor was sitting out side for over 20 years. It was rusty, but it had a greasy cam gear and it fits nicely in my 1916 cyl. I installed the cam gear by lining up the marks (the "0's"). That went smoothly. I then pulled off the valve covers, cranked the engine slowly and watched all the valves open and close. That made my day! I tested for compression using an unscientific way...having my finger over open priming cups. Cyl 1, 2, 3 all had wonderful compression. # 4 is weak so I am now driven to do a valve job. Now, to get those valve plugs out...Another problem I am now having is I cannot separate my water pump from what it bolts to. Its been soaking in WD-40, but that?s not the best stuff. I will some good penetrating oil. I am afraid to break it. I am afraid to heat it. Anyone have a water pump for sale? I assume they are the same up to 1925?? Got a feeling I have an issue.Once I get the water pump on, the valve job complete, I will be attempting to start it. The last hurdle I should have is the distributor timing. There are several markings on the flywheel that may help me. Joel, I saw something in one of your books about flywheel markings. Can you take a peak for me?Thanks to all that have helped me...especially JOEL, who helped me take apart that rusty big six to get the cam gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Tom, glad to hear that Carl treated you right. I timed my big six statically. There should be marks on the flywheel that correspond to 'intake valve opens' and 'TDC'. I think I did it by setting the flywheel at top dead center. The distributor should have a manual advance tang that I set fully advanced. Next, with a small test light, I set the points to where they were just opening. With it set like this, it would not start, since it was too far advanced. I then moved the advance lever ever so slightly retarded in several steps to try to find the spot that would allow the engine to start. Then it was a matter of driving the car and getting it to run well without overheating. It took me several hours. When I simply set the flywheel at TDC without advancing the distributor, the car would overheat terribly. This may have been because the timing was retarded. Good luck.Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted April 10, 2005 Share Posted April 10, 2005 Tom,Just had to say you have an unusually good streak of luck going here, from a dead indian to finding a usable 80 year old timing gear in a few weeks. I didn't think you would ever find a good timing gear and didn't bother to suggest you check the engine for something tight enough to cause the first gear to snap teeth before trying to spin it with a new gear. I had thoughts about a stuck valve lifter or something else hung up and causing the original gear to shed teeth. Hope your lucky streak stays strong. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted May 1, 2005 Author Share Posted May 1, 2005 Hello all,I wanted to update everyone one where I am with the Stude. I will try and be brief. I installed the new cam gear, rebuilt and re-packed the water pump, and re-assembled the engine. Cylinders 1, 2, and 3 have wonderful compression; cylinder 4 has about 20% of the compression of 1,2,3. With #4, I removed the valve plugs and proceeded with a valve job (I actually have tools to do this left over from the Packard) to re-seat the valves in hopes that would solve my compression problem. Re-seating the valves was easy, but it did not solve the compression problem. I have to assume it?s the cylinder/piston/ring combination issue. I will not pull off the Mono-block. I would be in over my head at that point. I am not equipped to handle it.I have decided to go ahead with attempting to start it regardless of the low #4 compression. My issue now is weak spark. I define weak spark because every engine I have ever known, including lawn mowers, the spark should be strong enough to ZAP and JOLT the heck out of me. I have sanded the points to assure good contact. I even tried a new 6V coil from NAPA. Still very weak. With the ignition on, I open and close the points with my finger and see a little spark jump. Keep in mind I am using my finger to open the points and cannot feel anything. I should be getting jolted! I have checked and confirmed the battery wire to the coil and the distributor wire to the coil. I believe I have a good ground. There is spark, just very weak.I am lost at this point with the weak spark. I will post this question to another area of this forum, as it should be a standard problem. Your thoughts and comments and always welcome.Thanks all for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stude24 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 The voltage across the points is only 6-volts (or 12V in a 12V system). It's not until the voltage has been through the coil that it jumps to high voltage. One way to check the spark is to remove one of the plugs and lay it against the block and crank the engine over; you should see a bright blue spark across the gap. If there is no spark at the plugs and you are getting a (weaker) spark at the points and have a known good coil replace the condensor. As the old saying goes: "if your condensor goes, you don't". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted May 2, 2005 Author Share Posted May 2, 2005 Are there condensors on a 1916? I didnt see one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stude24 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Tom,I pulled out the 1916 ED Six parts book that I have and you are correct a condensor is not listed, which really shocked me (sorry for the pun). Anyway the voltage across the points is only six volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montrose Posted May 4, 2005 Share Posted May 4, 2005 Tom,You do need a condensor. Without one you will have a very poor spark and will pit the points in very short order. Many of the early coils had a condensor built right into the coil. Which is why you would not have a seperate one externally. However, if you are using a replacement coil without the condensor, you will need to install one externally. And incidentally, there are a few hundred volts typically across the points momentarily when the points open, breaking the primary current. A reverse emf is impressed upon the primary circuit by the secondary.Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted May 5, 2005 Author Share Posted May 5, 2005 Hi all. I want to thank everyone who has help me with this car. Your tips and help could not be valued! This will most likely be the last update for me. I ended getting the spark I needed. Cleaned points better and cleaned plugs. I got the big bi*ch running Monday night and continued to run it last night. I am pretty certain the engine needs to be rebuilt. Cylinder #4 cylinder has about 10% of the compression of the other 3. I did a valve job on that cylinder, but it didn't help. Cylinder #2 is always full of oil. There is no oil pressure on gauge and there is oil spitting out on the flywheel from somewhere. Not to mention that this thing is a huge smoker and that's after it cleared its throat. I am already over my head with this car and will be selling soon. I just don't have the skills and tools to do this and paying someone to do the whole job would be very costly I assume. I will be listing on Ebay within a few weeks once I get some good photos. Its running, but its too much for me. My own mistake I guess. Once I sell, I will be in the market again for a 7 passenger touring...one that runs and drives! :-)Tom Laferriere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted May 27, 2005 Share Posted May 27, 2005 Tom,I'm very sorry to hear you are going to throw in the towel on the Studebaker. You are not the type to be afraid to get your hands dirty after what you did to get it running. It does sound like it is too tired to go on without some big work like rings and bearings. The cost of reringing would probably mean new pistons or a sleeve job to reuse the old ones if it had been previously bored in its lifetime. East coast shops are pricey but if you make a list of what services you want done maybe a slow shop would make a good deal on doing it. Shop around and see what the numbers look like. A few years ago, 1999, I spent about $3700 on a 1930 inline 8 cyl engine that got new pistons, rings, valves, guides, springs and line bored new babbit mains and rod bearings. I don't know how close to half of that a 4 cyl would run. I did the disassembly and got back a short block that I finished up. If you come out better selling it and get back what you have in it then that is your choice. If it looks like a loss money wise maybe you can do the engine over and have a driver. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted June 22, 2005 Author Share Posted June 22, 2005 I'm B A C K ! ! !I fellow enthusist that read my last post turned me on to someone local that can help me out. The car is there now and the top monoblock is removed and apart. An inspection of the bottom was OK. He will rebuild the top mono-block and it should be ready within a couple of months. I'll keep you posted.Thanks to all that have put up with me complaining!Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Laferriere Posted September 9, 2005 Author Share Posted September 9, 2005 Hello once again.The top mono block has been completely rebuilt. Bored, new pistons, valves, guides, springs, cracks repaired. Now its back to the mechanic for assembly. See my website for large, hi-res pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stude8 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Tom:Congratulations for doing the right job on this engine, you will be rewarded when it is back together. Having a reliable engine makes driving the old iron so much more enjoyable. Stude8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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